Engine Choices

Here is the question: I want to know all the choices there are for power. I currently have a Type 1 2160cc, 150 hp engine (built by C B Performance), it has good torque and runs strong, but what if you want MORE power.....what are the choices?

Suppose that you are building a new speedster/ roadster, what are the real options, and it needs to be able to work with A/C (too hot and humid in Atlanta to live all summer without A/C ). I would mate it with a 4 speed or 5 speed transmission. It has to be a rear engine mount, as it would go into a IM build.

I would consider Type 1, Type IV (?) although I know very little about those, or a rebuilt Porsche engine.

Keep in mind that this would go into a new build, and I would like to get closer to 170 plus H.P. out of it. Anyone out there, please share your thoughs and comments.

Geez, Biggs! You gotta death wish.

170 HP!

Jerome

170 Hp...
I would consider a type 4 engine with that kind of horsepower.
Why not a 3.0 L 270Hp type 4 in your speedster?
www.aircooledtechnology.com/blue.AVI
Just kidding!!
All engines that will fit a beetle would fit your speedster.
Here are some website's of beetle tuners.
I hope you can read and understand german....
www.aircooledtechnology.com/Home_Page.htm
www.shoptalkforums.com/
www.wilke-motorenbau.de/komplet.htm
www.remmele-motorsport.com/de/index_de.html
www.klaus-kaefertuning.de/
www.tafel-fahrzeugtechnik.de/

If you want something else than aircooled you can also consider a subaru conversion.

Good Luck with your engine choice.

William

Geez....if you want to go water-cooled you can drop a turbo'd Mitsubishi EVO engine back there - 450+ hp !!

(now, there's a Death Wish!!)

The Type IV engine can reliably make 170 HP from only 2316cc. I have a 180 HP version of the 2316 engine in my 914 that has been driven 8,000 miles since it was installed in March of this year.

The Type IV engine is large to begin with so it requires way less modifications to achieve the desired power.

Less modifications means a simpler engine that is stronger.

Do some searches on TIV power here and you'll find heated debates- the more heated they are the more information spills from them so don't be afraid to read, read and read more.

make sure to visit www.massivetype4.com as well I have written many pages there on fitting my engne and even a page specifically about the Speedster.. The beautiful engine you'll see in Red and Black carbon fiber there belongs to a member here, Simon Hambly- what an excelent job Simon did on his car!

Biggs,

Consider a 3.2 engine with a G50 Trans from an 87 - 89 911. Heat, A/C and all the power you could want. Henry had a customer car at Carlisle on Sunday with this set up very nice.

Karl

I'm sure GB is wishing he had internet access about right now.

You know Bob, I was thinking the same thing!

The Porsche power plant was unique I head the owner come ripping into the Carlisle grounds under WOT for a few seconds and it made me take notice!

If your limiting your choices to available powerplants that Henry at IM is willing to put in then I think you should call Henry and ask him what all the options are that he is willing to put in. Are you wanting aircooled or does a liquid cooled car work just as well for you??

Sorry I did not respond earlier, internet access was out for a day.

I was trying to nail down what choices I had to get a more power. And / or a 5 speed may be a possibility.

Just this morning I had the same thoughts about GB and would have liked to see his comments on this.

I know very little about the Type IV engine, so I need to do some research.

The limitations are: I'm not going to spend $10k plus on the engine; Henry at IM will have to put it in; I want to stay with air cooled only; and it has to be able to run A/C.

Is there an option for a 4 cyl Porsche engine that would make enough HP and mate with a 5 speed transmission?

Jake, or anyone else...has Henry installed a type IV in one of his cars before? What are the transmission choices? Can a built Type IV be bought complete, ready for installtion, and can it run A/C?

Just asking? I am doing some research on this engine.

If talking about Porsche 4 cylinder engines you're stuck with only two choices: either a 356/912 engine or a Type IV 914 engine. A 356/912 is very similar to a Type I engine and it's possible that with all the new advancements in performance parts you are better off with a VW Type I since you'll be able to squeeze more HP out of it for less money in comparison. Parts for 356/912 engines are very expensive.

A 3.2 911 engine sounds good, but not sure what the expense of that would be. Also wonder what the maintenance costs would be on something like that as well.

I agree that the Type 1 2300cc engine is a good choice for ease of maintenance, etc..but can you actually get 170hp out of one and still run a/c and expect long term reliability?

I think I want the 5 spd as much as I want the extra power, a G50 is a 5 speed, right?

Why do you need 170hp for a 1600 pound car??

I have heard that some people are switching to the modern audi manual on replicas. You might want henry to check into that, because they are cheaper and easier to find and much cheaper to work on?

There is never too much.....

First off, if its a street car HP is actually pretty worthless..

Look into the various engines available a bit deeper- Look at torque curves..

Installing the TIV into an Intermeccanica or any other replica isn't really any different than installing a Type I. People call it a conversion but conversions normally require adaptors- the Type IV does not require an adaptor as it bolts right up.

We won't get into which engine is best, or at least I won't because it has been pounded into the ground too many times and there are dozens of posts already that go over it all..

Do your research and if I can be of assistance let me know...

Search for info at
www.tunacan.net/t4
www.aircooledtechnology.com
www.massivetype4.com
and the Type 4rum at www.shoptalkforums.com
or www.germanlook.com

Does anyone have a CB Performance Type 1 and Type IV dyno test showing hp and torque from comparable size engines 2300cc or so? I agree torque is what I like to feel when I hit the gas but wouldn't they be close in hp and torque? Which type engine puts out more hp and torque .

Any suggestions on where to find more information on 3.2 Porsche engines, cost, power, etc... I haven't had much luck.

Robert,

If you're looking for real power, and you agree with Jake regarding torque as well as horsepower as being equally important, and you willing to look into "conversions" as a means to get some, forget the Subaru and Mazda based engine swaps and just step on up to the bar like a REAL man!

img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/TeamEvil/File0002.jpg

Get yourself a 4.1 liter GM V6 out of a mid-year Caddy or big Buick sedan. Add a cam and timing gears, have the valves and springs re-done, add an aluminum manifold and 4 barrel, some Sanderson headers (reversed), and a KEP adapter kit and clutch pack.

It's an easy bolt in ! ! I've done it twice now (on Ghias) and I'm working on a third. For the Speedster, it'll take a little fiberglass work and a rear luggage rack and basket/suitcase to hide the carb and aircleaner.

The best part is opening the basket and finding the top of an Edlebrock air cleaner instead of cold fried chicken and pie.

Come on now TC, I wasn't aiming for a Frankenstein type Roadster.

My request was a bit simpler:
about 170hp (torque too?);
be able to run A/C;
Henry at IM would be able (and willing to put it in);
And the cost stayed under $10k

Maybe a Porsche 3.2 would work, but I'm not sure if I need to go that drastic. Maybe a Type 1 2330cc mated with a 5 speed would be good..what kind of hp and torque does that put out? Kind of a sleeper is what I want.

Only thing I'm going to say is $10K is barely realistic to buy reliable 170HP, particularly if you're gonna add air conditioning load.
P-car 5 speeds start around $2500-3000 and go up from there.
Gene Berg 5 speed I think is about half that

I have dozens of power graphs available for my engines. I even have comparative graphs from some of my TI engines from back when I still worked with them that you could compare to the TIV graphs.

These graphs don't just show HP and Torque but they also show the engine's brake specific fuel consumption so you can even see the efficiency differences between the two engines. For most of these I also have temperature logs that were taken during their steady state sustained load testing that simulates cruise speeds so those can be compared as well.

If you want some of this information to compare I can email it to you in an Excel spreadsheet series and you can compare it all yourself. Feel free to send me an email to engines@aircooledtechnology.com for the data.

Also look on the 914 pages of my aircooled technology.com site and follow the links to a few of the power graphs there. I have a few of my most popular 914 engines posted and those are similar to their conversion counterparts.

I am working to get the majority of the engines I build uploaded to the net but simply don't have the time to sit behind the computer these days for more than 5 minutes at a time.

There is nothing like a flat torque curve that starts at 2,000 RPM and holds it's own up to 5K!

I think $10k is a rough estimate. I'm not sure what the base allowance is for IM with a 1600 and 4 spd, but the extra charge for the 2110cc and the extra for a 5 spd, brought me to soething close to that. maybe the number for a 2330 type 1 or (IV?) is more like $12k to $13k, although I wouldn't be surprised to see a Porsche drivetrain exceed that. Maybe I'm just dumb and cheap, but I want to keep things within reason.

People seem to keep these numbers a secret....If someone knows a good guesstimate, let me know...

A Gene Berg 5 speed may be an option if I go with a 2330 type I.

Jake thanks for the previous comments...I keep looking for more information and I will check the 914 graphs on the website. I still don't know anything about the Type IV...I read alot on the website, seems like a lot of words, but I can't seem to get to the basics...what is the basic difference between Type I and type IV, are there advantages between one or the other, and why are type IV's not as popular as a Type I ? What 5 speed can be mated with the Type IV?

Robert, do a search for type 1 vs type 4 on this site as well as the ones Jake mentioned.

Bob wrote: "A Gene Berg 5 speed may be an option if I go with a 2330 type I."

A Berg rebuilt 5-speed will cost more than a rebuilt 901 (which will also probably handle more power). I'd go with the 901....As Karl Macklin about his 901 - good set-up.

hi there,as anybody considered put a bike engine (susuki iabusa 175bhp)into one of these bath-tubs. Over here in the u.k they are getting really popular transplants.Anyone put one of these in their little tub I would be intrested to here from you...... regards mdmax

Biggs,

The Porsche 901 trans can be a 4sp or 5spd. This is the trans that Porsche used in the 911 until the early 1970s, 72 or 73 I can

You need to READ ALL of the TIV information you can find... You will find those of us that appreciate the Type 4 are much more willing to share the information that we have attained in hopes to get more people converting their cars to REAL power.

The TIV engine is a super sized TI engine basically a "Big Block" VW engine, just like the Big Block Chevy Vs. The small Block...

You really should schedule a phone chat with me- I could give you tons of information in 30 minutes.

First, have you talked to Henry? I'd start there if it was me. He offers a CB built 2332 that he can just bolt in. Not 170HP, but a reliable 150 or so. I have 165 rear wheel HP in my car, and have never thought that it was too much. He has also installed many different Porsche engines in his cars, from a 2.2L up to the 3.6L so you have plenty of options there. If you are not in a rush, there might be a surprise coming in a few months from Henry regarding engines/transmissions!
Ron

@Jake: I have heard that the standard (IRS) beetle gearbox can handle up to 200 hp, is that true?
@biggs: If that's possible you can first save some money to upgrade your engine and at a later time upgrade your gearbox.
@jake: what will be a good TIV engine setup for this kind of horsepower talking about displacement and cams?
I have a 2.0L motorcode CU TIV engine installed in my speedster now and i'm planning to upgrade it at a later time to about the same kind of horsepower.
I have milled the gearbox to fit the 228mm standard clutch. Will that clutch hold that kind of hp?
I'm thinking about a 71x103 (2.4 L) displacement setup to save some money by reusing the crankshaft and connecting rods, is that possible or do i need a special crankshaft and connecting rods?

Greetings William

Jake: I have heard that the standard (IRS) beetle gearbox can handle up to 200 hp, is that true?

>>>>>>>>Not particularly in stock form. With some mods they can hold well over 200, the one in my test vehicle is holding 235 HP and 240 lb/ft of torque very well- Its all in thge way you drive it and you HAVE TO learn the art of preloading the trans to keep it alive.


(To-Email-Insert-@)biggs: If that's possible you can first save some money to upgrade your engine and at a later time upgrade your gearbox.

>>Yes, but how about gear ratios? The stock ratios are only good for a stock engine that had little torque and depended upon its gearing to keep the engine alive. Bigger engines need a more spread out set of gears and it even optimizes them further by reducing RPM at speed all while giving smoother power. The stock gear ratios with a big engine cost MPG, Heat and a lot of noise in the car.

(To-Email-Insert-@)jake: what will be a good TIV engine setup for this kind of horsepower talking about displacement and cams?

>>No doubt either a 2270 or a 2316 will give you what you are looking for. These engines have excellent reliability and longevity and are available in kit form from my www.type4store.com to simplify the asssembly to the point that a 15 year old can do the job.
Do not worry about overall displacement, because it matters very little with the Type IV- Build the engine smarter instead of larger and my kit allows this easier than conventionally possible.

I have milled the gearbox to fit the 228mm standard clutch. Will that clutch hold that kind of hp?
>>>Possibly, but I would have much rather seen you use a conversion flywheel and TI clutch components to keep the bellhouse stronger.

I'm thinking about a 71x103 (2.4 L) displacement setup to save some money by reusing the crankshaft and connecting rods, is that possible or do i need a special crankshaft and connecting rods?
>>>>This combination is not my favorite because it lacks torque and utilizes those hideous 103mm cast iron cylinders that don't live long at all even in a best case scenario. The whole reason that guys go to a TIV is reliability and longevity and when you go to the 103s you lose that altogether so you may as well not even do a TIV!

Build the 2270 or 2316 and you will not be disappointed. The 2316 in my 914 will turn 105 MPH in 3rd gear and runs smooth enough that it can be driven everyday- I have driven it 8000+ miles since March of this year and haven't even opened the bonnet in 2 months for anything!

Jake: I don't know who to believe but please take a look at:
www.wilke-motorenbau.de/komplet.htm#6
220Nm(165Lb/ft) at 2000 Rpm that's the same amount of torque of your "2316 Porsche 914 Performance Engine Kit "The original Annihilator" (what a mouth full...)
About the heat problems with this setup: will a setup with 103mm nickies do the job?
With the 96x80 (2316)setup only the crankcase can be reused or can I reuse the connecting rods?

Jake, forgot one thing about the 228mm clutch. It is much smoother to operate than a "upgraded" type I clutch. The pedal force is much lighter.
Have you ever try to fit this clutch? There is not so much material you have to remove. I don't believe I weakened the bellhouse that much.

Greetings William

Biggs:

Stop screwin around.....

The car you REALLY want has been for sale here all along (actually, MORE than what you really want), and is about to hit E-Bay for less money than you'll be putting into your new build.

Buy Mike Wiggens' car and you'll be happy....210hp, 5-speed, and it's an IM already....

www.speedsterowners.com/forum/readmsg.asp?t=6509

gn

The "Old Coot from Rhode Island"

Biggs,

Gordon has a good point!

Karl

Gordon and Karl:) - Yes I looked up this car before. It is beautiful, but I want a Roadster, conservative look on the outside, slate grey, dark red leather, black top, charcoal carpet, 5 speed, and possibly a 2.7 or 3.0 engine. No outlaws for me.

This is a great car, but not my build.

I'm still researching the engine and transmission choices / issues.

Does anyone know anything about the older 2.0 litre Porsche engine. It would be rebuilt. i heard it has about 160 to 165 hp?

I think an old 2.0 or 2.2 911 engine would be a great fit for a roadster replica. As far as HP numbers and the resulting bragging rights, that's all you have.

You need to go out and drive a few variations and see what the car feels like. Whether the engine makes 140 or 160 HP, you need to drive it and decide if it is what you are hoping for.

John Leader has what I think may be top-of-the-line in Type1 engines as far as displacment. It is ballsy. Jim Ward's engine is a taste smaller in 'numbers' but with Bill Steele at the wheel and me in the passenger seat, it felt really powerful...now John may nave been lugging his the night I rode with him, but seat of the pants say's both very capable to run a clean sports car. How much different are they??? Couldn't tell ya... but John has a five speed and I'm green with envy!

As has always followed the 911 power-plant suggestion some moron will say, "Oooo they are soo heavy in the ass-end" I think I've come to the opinion that in a pan-based car they would be, but in an IM with the suspension goodies Jim outlined elsewhere, a very pleasing combo; torque enough to grunt it out stop light to parking lot with the air-conditioning on, no need to shift out of third most of the time...

Go for a joy ride and 'joy' will be all in caps! Afterall it is a 911!

Robert,
The US Spec 2.0 914 engine (AKA Type IV) was rated at 100HP DIN

Creating 160 HP normally requires a 2270+cc engine, but it can be done easily and reliably. After 180 HP things get much more expensive for the additional power spent.

Since you are in Alpharetta you should take a trip to the mountains and go for a ride in my 914 and The Blue Beetle test vehicle powered with 2316 and 2980cc Type 4 engines... I sometimes go right through Alpharetta on GA 400 maybe we could get together.

Be careful, George built a type 1 in that range and it didn't last. Anyone can claim it will work and last a long time, but we all know that the further away from normal you get the less chance you have of driving it anywhere but the repair shop.