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Engine Compartment Seal

polynesianpoppolynesianpop
So here's my sitch -

My engine compartment is not sealed. There's the standard cowling mounted just below the belt/above the exhaust and about 3 inches above that, there's a horseshoe shaped piece of fiblerglass that's screwed into the frame that runs just on the inside of the tail of the car. Other than that, the engine compartment is wide open to the ground.

Now, I've been driving the car around like this since I bought it and as far as I know, so was the previous owner. The engine temp gauge never goes past the middle of the gauge. According to a mech/sales guy at JBugs in Oceanside, CA and an old Porsche/VW buddy of mine, I shouldn't be too concerned based on my temp gauge readings. However, I'm still not comfortable with this.

I was reading some of the old forum posts about how important it is to seal the engine compartment off and have a few questions about the best way to approach this --

1. Is this something I can do myself? I have a CMC kit which was assembled without any of the engine tins (not sure if CMC even included this in their kits).

2. If I can do this myself, does anyone out there have templates that are typically used with the CMC's? Or, does anyone know where I can get templates?

3. Assuming that "standard" templates do not exist and I will have to make templates and fashion the tins myself, what materials are best suited for the finished tins? And how should they be secured?

4. Assuming that I WON'T be able to make and install these myself, who/where would some of you recommend I have these done? A standard VW repair shop? A standard metal shop?

5. Any issues I need to be aware of regarding cool-air circulation? I'm concerned that buttoning up the whole engine compartment will reduce cool-air circulation dramatically.

Your input and/or recommendations are appreciated!

1957 CMC(Flared Speedster)

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polynesianpoppolynesianpop
So here's my sitch -

My engine compartment is not sealed. There's the standard cowling mounted just below the belt/above the exhaust and about 3 inches above that, there's a horseshoe shaped piece of fiblerglass that's screwed into the frame that runs just on the inside of the tail of the car. Other than that, the engine compartment is wide open to the ground.

Now, I've been driving the car around like this since I bought it and as far as I know, so was the previous owner. The engine temp gauge never goes past the middle of the gauge. According to a mech/sales guy at JBugs in Oceanside, CA and an old Porsche/VW buddy of mine, I shouldn't be too concerned based on my temp gauge readings. However, I'm still not comfortable with this.

I was reading some of the old forum posts about how important it is to seal the engine compartment off and have a few questions about the best way to approach this --

1. Is this something I can do myself? I have a CMC kit which was assembled without any of the engine tins (not sure if CMC even included this in their kits).

2. If I can do this myself, does anyone out there have templates that are typically used with the CMC's? Or, does anyone know where I can get templates?

3. Assuming that "standard" templates do not exist and I will have to make templates and fashion the tins myself, what materials are best suited for the finished tins? And how should they be secured?

4. Assuming that I WON'T be able to make and install these myself, who/where would some of you recommend I have these done? A standard VW repair shop? A standard metal shop?

5. Any issues I need to be aware of regarding cool-air circulation? I'm concerned that buttoning up the whole engine compartment will reduce cool-air circulation dramatically.

Your input and/or recommendations are appreciated!
FM Former Member
Hi Adrian; use the search function here as this has been discussed at length previously. My recommendation is that you make sure you have all the standard VW Type I engine tins (that's front and back). For the back one get a VW Type II (Bus) foam H-style engine seal. It's better to seal the compartment totally between the top of the engine and its bottom. The key is to make sure you get enough fresh cool air through the decklid at the top.
polynesianpoppolynesianpop
Thanks for the reply Ricardo. Will the standard VW Type I tins fit without modification? By looking at my engine bay, it appears that I will have to have something custom fitted. The cowling just below the belt actually sits about 3-4 inches lower than the CMC frame inside the compartment. This is the same cowling that mounts flush in the engine compartment floor of a Type I VW.

Regarding the cool air intake on top, I have the standard decklid grille there. On the inside of the decklid, there's a piece of fiberglass just behind it which is open on each side to allow air to circulate into the engine compartment. Did you do anything special to draw in more cool air into the engine compartment? By looking at other folks' rides here, it looks like a standard configuration.

Maybe its just me, but I'm a little paranoid about my engine not getting a sufficient amount of cooling even though I mentioned in the above post that there aren't any signs of cooling problems now...

WOLFGANGWOLFGANG'89 CMC FWB, FL Supporting Member
OEM are better than the aftermarket ones --- they don't seal real well and most are cheaply chromed. CIP1, JC Whitney and others have the aftermarket stuff - you can even get without the heater hose and carb preheat holes. Here's link with some pictures:

http://www.jbugs.com/store/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=EngineTinChrome

Might be some SO with spares here -- I have extra front piece (by pulley) but live on the other coast! There is one across back - over trans/flywheel too. If you don't have heater boxes make sure the shroud doesn't have open vents for them. Check firewall to ensure PO cut out the semicircle piece of fiberglass for cooling air. There are like 4 pieces of FG shown in the picture --- do you have all? I can make a template on paper if you need the others. They could be made from aluminum too.
FM Former Member
Adrian, this is the only picture I have with the chrome tin piece I think you're looking for. It probably was a SCAT part, but it's plain old VW tech. I'm sure they're out there. I'm sure mine went the way of the dodo in a horse-trade of some kind, but I'll look.
If I remember right, the CMC bodies are all relief-cut back there to allow that piece and the rubber seal that wraps around the entire engine tin set.
The tin I'm talking about is in the wagon in the picture.
Here's a link to what a Type I with better tin looks like.
http://www.aircooledvwaddiction.com/albums/album71/aca.jpg
I'd cross-check the Library pages to see what the CMC manual has for a comparison. ... I gave a cursory look there, but couldn't find a rear-forward view with a definative drawing.
You probably ought to make every effort toward cooling that block, though. My opinion.
I'll keep looking for a better picture.

FM Former Member
I'm a rookie at air-cooled stuff, too, but I've had the same crate for the last five years and I read Muir's excellent book on the subject. I've learned a few basics, and I know I'll be corrected here by folks smarter than me if I'm off the mark, so here goes:
My only experience, coming from the 1641 I had, is that the fan in the shroud draws clean air from above the tin, behind the Speedster's back seat, and pushes it down over the cylinders.
The fan is connected to the pulley shaft on the generator (or alternator) and only turns effectively in one direction.
The giant hole in the firewall side of the tin is the suck side. The void space in the shroud directs the air over top of the cylinders evenly for both halves of the block. That's the blow side.
The tins keep the cylinders hanging out in the airflow under the car, and at the same time make a plenum space for the air coming in through the decklid grille.
Thus, the hot air coming out the bottom of the cylinders is prevented from returning to the cooler side up top without a whole lot of moving parts.
If you don't have tins between the blow side and the intake for the suck side, you'll have steadily increasing temperatures across the piston cylinders -- which ain't good on the white-metal engine block -- which expands and contracts more easily than say, cast iron from Detroit and over time will require you to re-stud your guide rods and such.
Did that help, or did I just confuse things?
FM Former Member
Luckily, they made about a bajillion Volkswagen Beetles, so the tin isn't hard to find. Just an example, using "VW engine tin" as an ebay search:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Gold-Powder-coated-VW-Type-1-engine-cooling-tin_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ46096QQitemZ8055194892QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

Ten bucks. I think you'll be able to find whatever color you want in about two minutes.
polynesianpoppolynesianpop
Thanks for the replies guys. Cory, regarding the tins on the motor in the pic you attached here -- http://www.aircooledvwaddiction.com/albums/album71/aca.jpg -- my motor already has all those tins attached. Thing is, my motor sits about 3-4 inches below the CMC frame that wraps around the inside of the engine bay. Its looking more and more like a I'm going to have to have something made (or do it myself) to get a custom fit in there.

Thomas, I haven't sourced any of the custom parts yet. I've been out of town on business for the past couple of days so as soon as I get back home I'm going to start looking up a few sources. I'm thinking of getting a few quotes first just to get an idea of whether its worth it to just have a shop do it before I attempt to fashion my own tins and seals.

I'll post pics of what I'm talking about when I get back. Thanks for the help guys -- its very much appreciated.
FM Former Member
Adrian, I'll offer to make sheet metal parts for you if you don't have a friend close by. I use cardboard or corrugated for my templates, and I'm about to have to make a number of panels for myself. Just trace the holes with the fat end of a Sharpie on a piece of whatever you've got for paper stock and put 'em in the mail.
You'll have the sheet metal about two weeks later at the latest.
polynesianpoppolynesianpop
Cory, very generous offer from you! I'm out of town for the rest of the week so once I return I'll draw up the templates on butcher paper (most likely this weekend). I'll contact you via profile email addy once thats done.

Please let me know what time and materials comes out to -- of course, I'm more than happy to compensate you for your time and efforts!

FM Former Member
Cory (& Adrian):
Now that I am home from work I have taken another look at my engine. The tin piece in your red wagon photo is installed in my engine, but there is a gap about 3 miles wide between that piece and the body. I suppose I need a custom cut piece to bridge that gap.
What confounds me is if these inserts were included with the original CMC kit, why did the original builder not fill that gap?
Life is a mystery.
FM Former Member
In my car, there was rubber matting, the electrical type, in that gap. Now that I'm free of that headache, I can do what I want with the tin.
I ate the cat that ate the mouse that ate the cheese the spider sat on when he finished with the fly, though. Don't do what I done.
I'll wait for the templates.
Sounds like Tom needs the same thing. If y'all want to compare notes and holler sometime this week, that'd kill both birds with one stone.
(443) 995-0576 is the best way to get in touch with me the rest of the week, 'cuz I'll be in Jim's shop.
polynesianpoppolynesianpop
Thomas,
Those pics of your engine bay look almost exactly like mine. I have the same gap all the way around as well. I'm guessing its there because the CMC build manual doesn't specify to seal the engine compartment. Take a look at this page --

https://www.speedsterowners.com/library/cmcmanual2/images/cmc59.jpg

As such, the person who built your car didn't know any better - they just built the car per the CMC manual. At least thats the conclusion I've come to based on mine.

I've yet to address this issue because I've been working on other parts of the car however, once I get this going I'll post my info/pix/steps here.
polynesianpoppolynesianpop
I actually do have that top insert in place. Problem is, the CMC frame where it mounts to sits about 3-4" higher that the lower pulley pan and as such, doesn't line up. This 3-4" (vertical) gap runs all the way around my motor and is where I need the engine bay sealed. Because of the unique shape inside my engine bay it will require something to be custom fitted - part vertical, part horizontal and cut to fit around the motor (almost L-shaped with a curve and a few bends).

I'm actually taking my tub to a local shop this Saturday to have it looked at so its being addressed soon. Hopefully it will be a simple and easy fix.
FM Former Member
The subject came up today in Sartwell's garage of how we're going to make my tins meet, and we're going to be cutting sheet metal over the next few days to match the back curve of my CMC. If you guys are still interested, I'll need dimensions or templates or something.
My tins are different now than they were, so I don't have the same spacing to the old CMC tubing y'all have.
Let me know by e-mail or here if y'all still need it.

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