@Larry Scislowicz posted:No Pertronix Points Module.....
OK, so you have points. And a condenser. And a coil. All three DO fail.
Cap, rotor, spark plug wires, and plugs could also be the culprit.
You could even have a tachometer going bad that is grounding out the ignition under load(I've seen this first hand).
Just because your car doesn't have a Pertronix module doesn't mean your problem ISN'T electrical.
Luckily all the stuff Danny named is inexpensive (except the tach) and easy to swap if you have some idea of what you're doing. It might be worth just shotgunning all that stuff (except the tach) to reduce variables.
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Larry, sorry, dunno where I got that the car was new to you.
If it was running OK at speed for a few years and then suddenly wasn't, then, yeah, it's unlikely to be a carb problem. Not impossible, but unlikely.
But to stir up even more confusion (which is why this forum exists, after all), I'm still not sure just what you DO have for a distributor. Danny is assuming 'not Pertronix' means conventional points. Is that what you've got? Then, what he says certainly applies.
The problem is 'not Pertronix' might also mean a very similar electronic dizzy that's just not labeled 'Pertronix'. Such things exist in large numbers. There are other labels stuck on these things, and many have no labels at all. (See Stan's 'little mud hut' theory of distributor production.) Such stuff is usually not worth the cardboard from which it is fashioned.
So, please clarify. And a few pictures of the dizzy would help, both the outside and what's hiding under the cap and rotor.
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@Sacto Mitch posted:.
Larry, sorry, dunno where I got that the car was new to you.
If it was running OK at speed for a few years and then suddenly wasn't, then, yeah, it's unlikely to be a carb problem. Not impossible, but unlikely.
But to stir up even more confusion (which is why this forum exists, after all), I'm still not sure just what you DO have for a distributor. Danny is assuming 'not Pertronix' means conventional points. Is that what you've got? Then, what he says certainly applies.
The problem is 'not Pertronix' might also mean a very similar electronic dizzy that's just not labeled 'Pertronix'. Such things exist in large numbers. There are other labels stuck on these things, and many have no labels at all. (See Stan's 'little mud hut' theory of distributor production.) Such stuff is usually not worth the cardboard from which it is fashioned.
So, please clarify. And a few pictures of the dizzy would help, both the outside and what's hiding under the cap and rotor.
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Hi Mitch, understand .....will try to get some pictures today of the distributor (inside and out).....Thx
@DannyP posted:OK, so you have points. And a condenser. And a coil. All three DO fail.
Cap, rotor, spark plug wires, and plugs could also be the culprit.
You could even have a tachometer going bad that is grounding out the ignition under load(I've seen this first hand).
Just because your car doesn't have a Pertronix module doesn't mean your problem ISN'T electrical.
Agreed, as soon as I finish testing the "fuel system" it will then be off to the electrical system, and like Lane said just shotgun replacing all the low-cost parts and see what the outcome is.....
@Lane Anderson posted:Luckily all the stuff Danny named is inexpensive (except the tach) and easy to swap if you have some idea of what you're doing. It might be worth just shotgunning all that stuff (except the tach) to reduce variables.
By the way the Tach is "mechanical".....
@DannyP posted:OK, so you have points. And a condenser. And a coil. All three DO fail.
Cap, rotor, spark plug wires, and plugs could also be the culprit.
You could even have a tachometer going bad that is grounding out the ignition under load(I've seen this first hand).
Just because your car doesn't have a Pertronix module doesn't mean your problem ISN'T electrical.
Understand.....just clarifying what I have, once I have tested out the "fuel system" it will be on to the "electrical system" and shotgun the low-cost parts from there....
@Larry Scislowicz posted:By the way the Tach is "mechanical".....
Not likely. I believe Porsche did use some mechanical tachs on the 356, driven by a cable on the crank pulley nut, but the odds of you having something like that is low.
I had a '62 Porsche 356 Karmann Knotchback. The tach was cable driven off the oil pump cover. (Bought for $300 in '76 sold in '77 for $1700 - should have kept it - but a VA beach rusty car).
@LI-Rick posted:Not likely. I believe Porsche did use some mechanical tachs on the 356, driven by a cable on the crank pulley nut, but the odds of you having something like that is low.
Hi Rick....you are correct!!!- it was my speedo that is mechanical not the Tach ......sorry for any confusion on this.
So if electrical is looking most likely, the 3th and 4th gear thing is an indication of load. In 1st and 2nd we can rev quite high, but can't put a sustained load on the engine for more than a second or two. In the higher gears we can. We could putt around town at 1/4 throttle in 3rd and 4th with no symptoms, but a long hill or out on the highway we need more throttle and put a sustained load on the engine. That load is where the spark needs to be stronger (coils, condenser, points, cap, rotor, wires) plus with load the vacuum is higher asking the dizzy to advance the timing (or if we have one of those awful 009's the weights cause the points to advance mechanically). So folks are right that if one or more of those things is bad it will cause things to break up and/or stall.
As for the mechanical tach thing, what folks generally mean with that term is that the tach is driven directly off the crank by a cable. Not at all common on a rear engined car of any kind and never seen on a Volkswagen bug after 1960 if ever. Our tachs are driven by an electric signal from the distributor, even though they have an actual mechanical needle. You'll note one of the smaller spade connectors on the coil has two wires coming off of it. One of those goes to the tach. If you pull off the tach wire from that side of the coil the car will run fine but the tach will not register RPMs. That's an easy way to test the bad tach theory, pull the tach wire and drive it to where it fails, if it doesn't fail there's your sign. I wouldn't go there first, though. It's way more likely to be one of the other things, it's easy to swap them out and none of them is that expensive. Personally I'd start with the coil, points, and condenser. Then move to spark plug wires, cap and rotor (and while there look at the plugs).
Scratch that. I'd start at the beginning and get all the new ignition parts handy, and in the morngin after coffee I'd do a complete tune up from scratch. I'd adjust the valves, put in new condenser, points, cap rotor, and plugs. Then check the static timing. Fire it up, warm it up, and check carb balance and idle mixture. Then test drive. If it still did it, then I'd replace the plug wires. If it still did it I'd try disconnecting the tach. If it STILL did it I'd try replacing the distributor. If it STILL did it I'd rebuild the carbs. If it was still doing it I'd convert to an ECU to control fuel and spark, or drive the Prius to a liquor store...
@Larry Scislowicz posted:Hi Mitch, understand .....will try to get some pictures today of the distributor (inside and out).....Thx
Hello Mitch....attached are some pictures of my distributor In and Out.......
@JMM (Michael) posted:So if electrical is looking most likely, the 3th and 4th gear thing is an indication of load. In 1st and 2nd we can rev quite high, but can't put a sustained load on the engine for more than a second or two. In the higher gears we can. We could putt around town at 1/4 throttle in 3rd and 4th with no symptoms, but a long hill or out on the highway we need more throttle and put a sustained load on the engine. That load is where the spark needs to be stronger (coils, condenser, points, cap, rotor, wires) plus with load the vacuum is higher asking the dizzy to advance the timing (or if we have one of those awful 009's the weights cause the points to advance mechanically). So folks are right that if one or more of those things is bad it will cause things to break up and/or stall.
As for the mechanical tach thing, what folks generally mean with that term is that the tach is driven directly off the crank by a cable. Not at all common on a rear engined car of any kind and never seen on a Volkswagen bug after 1960 if ever. Our tachs are driven by an electric signal from the distributor, even though they have an actual mechanical needle. You'll note one of the smaller spade connectors on the coil has two wires coming off of it. One of those goes to the tach. If you pull off the tach wire from that side of the coil the car will run fine but the tach will not register RPMs. That's an easy way to test the bad tach theory, pull the tach wire and drive it to where it fails, if it doesn't fail there's your sign. I wouldn't go there first, though. It's way more likely to be one of the other things, it's easy to swap them out and none of them is that expensive. Personally I'd start with the coil, points, and condenser. Then move to spark plug wires, cap and rotor (and while there look at the plugs).
Scratch that. I'd start at the beginning and get all the new ignition parts handy, and in the morngin after coffee I'd do a complete tune up from scratch. I'd adjust the valves, put in new condenser, points, cap rotor, and plugs. Then check the static timing. Fire it up, warm it up, and check carb balance and idle mixture. Then test drive. If it still did it, then I'd replace the plug wires. If it still did it I'd try disconnecting the tach. If it STILL did it I'd try replacing the distributor. If it STILL did it I'd rebuild the carbs. If it was still doing it I'd convert to an ECU to control fuel and spark, or drive the Prius to a liquor store...
Very well stated! It looks like that is the trajectory we are in. Need to order all the electrical stuff, and grab a cold beer!! Now I'm wondering if it is even worth it putting in the small tank and Fuel line that I put together.....mmmm will need to think about that since it is already mounted in the car....????
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Larry, Eureka!
What you've got is definitely 'not Pertronix'
It is conventional points, and also seems to be an original Bosch 009. Which could be both good and bad at once. It means the innards began life as a functional advance mechanism, and might still be so. By now, they would have done quite a bit of advancing, though, so might need some maintenance or a rebuild.
Have you ever replaced or set the gap on conventional points or set the timing using a timing light? Neither of those is difficult, but you'll need some guidance if you've never done it. If you plan to keep the points (or even if you don't), a timing light will be your best friend. Besides setting the timing, it can reveal other stuff about the overall health of the distributor.
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What the heck….. You’ve already got the Auxiliary gas can in there, so keep on that just to prove the point. If it still stalls in the same way with the Aux gas supply, then you can eliminate everything fuel related from the carbs to the tank, right?
Eliminating potential points of failure is a good thing.
@Gordon Nichols posted:What the heck….. You’ve already got the Auxiliary gas can in there, so keep on that just to prove the point. If it still stalls in the same way with the Aux gas supply, then you can eliminate everything fuel related from the carbs to the tank, right?
Eliminating potential points of failure is a good thing.
Hi Gordon.....yes, completed putting in the "Aux gas can system" and took it for a test drive, samo-samo sputtering and stalling out.
So now that I have eliminated everything from the "Fuel system" it is time to move on to the "Electrical System". Today is going to be spent ordering the electrical parts that will need to be changed out and putting everything back together concerning the fuel system.
and the adventure continues......
Points, condenser, cap, rotor and coil. Maybe wires too, why not?
I said I was done, but apparently I think everybody ought to have a right to my opinion.
If you've had the car 4 years and never adjusted the points, I'd buy a Compu-fire points replacement module
and a Mexican Bosch coil and a timing light from Harbor Freight. I'd also buy a cap, rotor, and wires (but you probably won't need them).
An even better option (and one that's only $210) is to just buy an entire Shockwave Ignition kit from Pat Downs Performance. It's got a better distributor, an electronic pickup, a new coil, and new cap, rotor, and wires. You'll need to keep your electric fuel pump, but you want that anyhow.
Install the ignition. Set the timing to 30 deg at 3000 RPM. Enjoy the summer.
Wow... Took a look at Pat Downs website (I didn't even know he HAD a website!) and his Shockwave Disti and it looks identical to the CB Perf. Magna Spark kit. For $20 bucks less. At least we have multiple places for parts and stuff.
@Stan Galat posted:I said I was done, but apparently I think everybody ought to have a right to my opinion.
If you've had the car 4 years and never adjusted the points, I'd buy a Compu-fire points replacement module
and a Mexican Bosch coil and a timing light from Harbor Freight. I'd also buy a cap, rotor, and wires (but you probably won't need them).
An even better option (and one that's only $210) is to just buy an entire Shockwave Ignition kit from Pat Downs Performance. It's got a better distributor, an electronic pickup, a new coil, and new cap, rotor, and wires. You'll need to keep your electric fuel pump, but you want that anyhow.
Install the ignition. Set the timing to 30 deg at 3000 RPM. Enjoy the summer.
Thanks Stan.....I haven't heard of this site....good info!!!
Well I got through putting away all the tools that I had working on the presumed "Fuel System" issue and started getting out what tools I'll be needing to work on the "Electrical System". My old Sears Digital Analyzer Model 161-2168. put a new battery in it and it appears to work OK.
While I am waiting to get my Distributor Parts I decided to check out the Points (on what the distributor is set at now) Hooked it up to the Coil and Ground and set it to 4-Cyl and turned on the engine, it shows that I am getting a reading of 62.8 degrees with small fluctuations. In the book I have on VW engines' it says I should be reading 50 +/- 2 degrees. Can this be the issues that have been causing my problems?? What say ye?
Dwell is supposed to be between 44 and 50 degrees. Correct it(with new points and a new condenser) and see how it goes.
Hello to all......received all the electrical parts for my "tune up" hoping that this will clear up the "Engine cutting out issue". Pulled the distributor off the engine to change out the Points and Condenser and reinstalled it back on the engine. Got ready to start the gapping of the points and noticed that when lining up the TDC mark, it was NOT lining up with my #1-cylinder firing position "notch" on the distributer rim (5 o'clock position) instead it is sitting at the 7 o'clock position. (See pic) I might have reversed the rotor position when I had the distributor out, could that have caused this? Please advise.......Thanks!
You didn't "reverse the rotor position", but you are one tooth off on the distributor drive shaft as it mates to the drive gear on the camshaft.
Release the distributor locking clamp and pull the disti straight out while gently turning the rotor counterclockwise - It should come straight out. Then, rotate the rotor counter clockwise to around 2-3 pm and re-insert the disti into the drive hole. You may have to wiggle the rotor back and forth a bit to find the point where the gears mesh between the disti and the cam, and then, as you insert the disti into the case and get the gear teeth lined up, the rotor should turn slightly clockwise and line up around 4pm for you. Be patient. It can be a slight trial and error process until you get things lined up.
The distributor drive tang only fits one way into the distributor drive in the case. The drive tang is offset to one side so it only fits one way.
The distributor drive itself can be installed in the wrong position, but typically stays put when you pull the distributor.
When I pull a distributor, I leave the clamp on the distributor. I remove the 13mm nut and washer that holds the clamp to the engine case.
In any case, I ALWAYS take pictures of how things look BEFORE I start any removals. That way, I'm sure where I started. And I ALWAYS put the engine at TDC before I start messing with the distributor, taking note of where the rotor is pointed.
It looks like your rotor is 90 degrees off. This is easy to fix with the spark plug wires, as they are probably already advanced a spot. Did you trace the wires from plug to cap and verify 1-4-3-2 order?
Unless you have a distributor drive puller, a magnet to grab the two spacers/bushings under it, and the knowledge to pull it and re-install it, I'd leave it alone.
If you pulled the distributor to change the points, why did you not set the point gap? It's so much easier when the distributor is out. Did you lube the rubbing block? Did you drop some oil on the felt inside the distributor shaft?
A couple of Old School short cuts that work, w/o the correct dizzy drive tool & in a pinch you can pull a dizzy drive by removing the fuel pump rod, pull the small spring out of the dizzy drive then using a new pencil's eraser end push it into the indent on the drive lightly pulling it upward and counterclockwise as you rock the crankshaft pulley slightly left and right. I've had a couple of Speedster projects that showed up with the dizzy drive 180 degrees out and I could not get the drive to come out so I took the round spring off the base of the dizzy, pushed the pin out re-clocking the offset180 degrees then reinstall the pin and spring .
@Alan Merklin posted:A couple of Old School short cuts that work, w/o the correct dizzy drive tool & in a pinch you can pull a dizzy drive by removing the fuel pump rod, pull the small spring out of the dizzy drive then using a new pencil's eraser end push it into the indent on the drive lightly pulling it upward and counterclockwise as you rock the crankshaft pulley slightly left and right. I've had a couple of Speedster projects that showed up with the dizzy drive 180 degrees out and I could not get the drive to come out so I took the round spring off the base of the dizzy, pushed the pin out re-clocking the offset180 degrees then reinstall the pin and spring .
And when he either can't get it out or drops one or both of the two shims/bushings you can go down there and help him.
Which is why I recommended he leave it alone. There are consequences to lack of knowledge.
@DannyP posted:The distributor drive tang only fits one way into the distributor drive in the case. The drive tang is offset to one side so it only fits one way.
The distributor drive itself can be installed in the wrong position, but typically stays put when you pull the distributor.
When I pull a distributor, I leave the clamp on the distributor. I remove the 13mm nut and washer that holds the clamp to the engine case.
The manuals all tell you where the tang is supposed to be when number 1 is at TDC, and where the notch is supposed to be, etc. -- but it matters less than you could imagine. It matters a little bit if you have a vacuum can, but not much at all otherwise.
Take the engine to TDC, loosen the distributor clamp, put the rotor on (it'll only go one way), and point it at whatever terminal on the cap you want to be number 1. Then go counterclockwise (opposite rotation) and put the number 2, 3, and 4 wires on. A 1-4-3-2 firing order is 1-2-3-4 going opposite (counterclockwise). Don't forget how VW designated their cylinders (number 1 is FR, number 2 is BR, number 3 is FL, number 4 is BL).
I'd never pull the drive unless you need to. I also always take off the clamp with the distributor without loosening it.
The engine will fire like this -- then set the timing to 30 deg TDC at 3000 RPM. Then tighten the clamp. Then go for a drive.
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@Stan Galat posted:.
...The engine will fire like this -- then set the timing to 30 deg BTDC at 3000 RPM. Then tighten the clamp. Then go for a drive.
Stan, I know leaving out the 'B' was just a typo, but without that 'B' (as in before top dead center) , this could be confusing to someone who hasn't done it before. Heck, the whole business of 'before' TDC when you're supposed to be advancing the timing is still confusing.
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C'mon Mitch/Brad or whatever your name is.
If you get paid in advance it is before your payday, no?
@Gordon Nichols posted:You didn't "reverse the rotor position", but you are one tooth off on the distributor drive shaft as it mates to the drive gear on the camshaft.
Release the distributor locking clamp and pull the disti straight out while gently turning the rotor counterclockwise - It should come straight out. Then, rotate the rotor counter clockwise to around 2-3 pm and re-insert the disti into the drive hole. You may have to wiggle the rotor back and forth a bit to find the point where the gears mesh between the disti and the cam, and then, as you insert the disti into the case and get the gear teeth lined up, the rotor should turn slightly clockwise and line up around 4pm for you. Be patient. It can be a slight trial and error process until you get things lined up.
Hi Gordon......thanks for your suggestion, I was able to unloosen the distributor locking bolt and partially pull out the distributor enough to allow me to rotate the rotor back to the Firing cylinder #1 and bolt it back down, (a tricky maneuver) and after that set the gap to .016. While doing this I had the fly wheel set for TDC. Need to go out today and see if I will be able start the car and then move to setting up the timing. .......Thanks !!
@DannyP posted:The distributor drive tang only fits one way into the distributor drive in the case. The drive tang is offset to one side so it only fits one way.
The distributor drive itself can be installed in the wrong position, but typically stays put when you pull the distributor.
When I pull a distributor, I leave the clamp on the distributor. I remove the 13mm nut and washer that holds the clamp to the engine case.
In any case, I ALWAYS take pictures of how things look BEFORE I start any removals. That way, I'm sure where I started. And I ALWAYS put the engine at TDC before I start messing with the distributor, taking note of where the rotor is pointed.
Hi Danny... Yes. I did leave the clamp on the distributor when I took it out and did take a pic of where the rotor was pointing - will fire it up today to see if all my settings work....and then move on to setting up the timing...Thanks!
@DannyP posted:It looks like your rotor is 90 degrees off. This is easy to fix with the spark plug wires, as they are probably already advanced a spot. Did you trace the wires from plug to cap and verify 1-4-3-2 order?
Unless you have a distributor drive puller, a magnet to grab the two spacers/bushings under it, and the knowledge to pull it and re-install it, I'd leave it alone.
If you pulled the distributor to change the points, why did you not set the point gap? It's so much easier when the distributor is out. Did you lube the rubbing block? Did you drop some oil on the felt inside the distributor shaft?
Hi, yes, verified the wires. Was able to get the distributor out by just wiggling and turning it a bit, and yes you definitely do need a magnet along with a socket that you can put some sticky tape into to hold the nut to go back on. Looking back, I should have set the gap when the distributor was out, and yes on lubing up the rubbing block along with putting some lightweight oil on the felt in the distributor shaft......Thanks!
@Alan Merklin posted:A couple of Old School short cuts that work, w/o the correct dizzy drive tool & in a pinch you can pull a dizzy drive by removing the fuel pump rod, pull the small spring out of the dizzy drive then using a new pencil's eraser end push it into the indent on the drive lightly pulling it upward and counterclockwise as you rock the crankshaft pulley slightly left and right. I've had a couple of Speedster projects that showed up with the dizzy drive 180 degrees out and I could not get the drive to come out so I took the round spring off the base of the dizzy, pushed the pin out re-clocking the offset180 degrees then reinstall the pin and spring .
Thanks Alan, good info, luckily, I didn't have to go that route......Thanks!
@DannyP posted:And when he either can't get it out or drops one or both of the two shims/bushings you can go down there and help him.
Which is why I recommended he leave it alone. There are consequences to lack of knowledge.
Yes, I wish I lived closer to more enthusiasts to give me a hand, but "air-cooled" VW mechanics are hard to find down here. I do enjoy the "wrench turning" and fortunately have you guys to give me some direction and help!!....although the ol' body doesn't respond like it used to.
@Stan Galat posted:The manuals all tell you where the tang is supposed to be when number 1 is at TDC, and where the notch is supposed to be, etc. -- but it matters less than you could imagine. It matters a little bit if you have a vacuum can, but not much at all otherwise.
Take the engine to TDC, loosen the distributor clamp, put the rotor on (it'll only go one way), and point it at whatever terminal on the cap you want to be number 1. Then go counterclockwise (opposite rotation) and put the number 2, 3, and 4 wires on. A 1-4-3-2 firing order is 1-2-3-4 going opposite (counterclockwise). Don't forget how VW designated their cylinders (number 1 is FR, number 2 is BR, number 3 is FL, number 4 is BL).
I'd never pull the drive unless you need to. I also always take off the clamp with the distributor without loosening it.
The engine will fire like this -- then set the timing to 30 deg TDC at 3000 RPM. Then tighten the clamp. Then go for a drive.
Thanks Stan.....probably should not have taken the distributor out but it makes it easier to change out the points and condenser. Understand on timing set at 30 degree BTDC.....Thanks
Waiting with baited (?) breath for you to turn the key to start! Wishing success!
SUCCESS!! Engine turned over on the first try, now to check the Dwell and set the timing...won't get to that till Friday as I need to go in and have some surgery on my left ear to removing some skin cancer cells that have developed (to much sun) tomorrow....Thanks to everyone again for the help thus far......
Mohs surgery, Larry?
