Engine dying with no warning

The only problems I had with car cutting out wasnt fuel related,,,it was an iffy wire connection from dizzy to coil on the coil end.

I'd be looking for a broken wire or connector/connection.  Were the connectors crimped with a bargain basement or quality crimping tool?  Vibration can cause soldered connections to fail as well. 

I would also look into a loose or grounding wire someplace. If there’s a wire that’s grounding it would act like an on off switch.  Concerning the fuel filters, they can go bad anytime by getting a bad batch of gas. They will clog overnight with goop from water and gas contamination. Also is your fuel tank/cap vented?

Also is your fuel tank/cap vented? Remove/loosen the gas cap and see if issue goes away.  Could be air can't get in tank due to clogged air vent.  If an EMPI/FACET pump - they are weak so doesn't take much.

Carlos,  I don't think the coil or the distributor are directly related to your issue. They may share a component (the ignition switch) in their wiring circuits, but they are likely wired in parallel to the ignition switch, independently of each other.

Having said that, it could be the ignition switch, which probably supplies electrical power on parallel circuits to both the fuel pump and ignition (coil / distributor) simultaneously.  Thus, an interruption at the ignition switch would abruptly cutoff the engine.  The abrupt cutoff (as if ignition switch turned off) would indeed be due to loss of ignition.  The fact that you don't hear the fuel pump running might be coincidental to the failure in the ignition switch.

But you say you've replaced the ignition switch.  In fact, you say you've replaced all of the relevant components.  That doesn't leave many choices for a solution; basically, just the wire (and connections) and the fuse connections.

The fuel pump is pretty basic in operation, like a light bulb.  It turns on and off with a switch.  If you suspect an issue with the fuel pump wiring, you can quickly isolate a yes/no answer by 'hot wiring' the fuel pump.  Get two new pieces of wire, one to attach somewhere for ground and one to attach directly to the battery source at the fuse panel.  The unattached ends of the two wires go to the fuel pump.  But first, put a cheap toggle switch in series between the battery and pump.  Turn the switch on, the pump will run.  Off, will turn the pump off.  The pump is now completely isolated from any other circuitry in the car.

(If you are scaredy-cat that you might inadvertently 'spark' the hot wire patch on something, install a 5 amp inline fuse between the battery and the switch.)

Unfortunately, you are going to have to drive it to see what happens.  Before you go, check the voltage at the coil with ignition ON.  If during the drive the engine quits again, and your pump is still running; now you know what it is not.  Don't touch the ignition switch when the engine stops running.  With ignition still ON, lift the hood and check the voltage at the coil.  12V ?

Be ready to 'hot wire' the ignition so you will be able to drive home, because the failure appears to be somewhere in the wiring (or connections) between the ignition switch and fuse panel (or in the panel itself).

A note on the "fuel supply" comments in posts above (venting, filters, etc):  Chances are the engine wouldn't just abruptly stop running in those instances.  Because both float bowls probably won't empty simultaneously, a fuel starvation symptom would most likely present itself as a sputtering-out shutdown and possibly lean-out backfiring as the engine runs out of fuel on one carb and then the other.

@Carlos G posted:

My fuel pump stopped working about 20 miles or so in. Luckily I was able to semi coast off onto someone's gravel driveway. Sitting there, the pump would come on sometimes and other times not. It was not consistent. CRAP. We had only just begun.

We got it home and the tow guy only charged me $80. Come to find out, he knew many of the old locals that were hooligans' back in the day as I did. I thanked him and said I hope I don't see you again except socially.

We fiddled with the car and I replaced the pump, and ignition switch for good measure. It was cheap enough.

OK back up.

Are you saying that Day 1 failure was definitely the fuel pump? The pump failed and your car sputtered to an out-of-gas style stop?

But then...for some reason...you decided to replace both the fuel pump and the non-faulty ignition switch?

if so...

I'd for sure put the old key switch right back where I found it, to start.

BUT: maybe that first day dead-stop was not on account of the fuel pump? Maybe that stop was also an ignition stop that randomly coincided with the fuel pump cutting out?

In which case...

You already changed the coil and ignition module. Crap.

Man, I keep typing but I got nothing beyond what Mark already advised.

I'm leaning towards the idea that the fuel pump was blocked either by a filter, a collapsed fuel line between the tank and the pump, or an unvented fuel tank. I've seen similar behavior from a blocked filter as well as a fuel pump that overheated because of limited fuel flow going into the pump.

When the car died the first time it wasn't exactly a fuel starved death. I was in a turn and scrambling for a spot to roll to, on a very narrow winding road, so my attention to HOW it died isn't accurate.

When we got it off of the road, the first thing I did was turn the ignition on and checked the pump by toggling it off and on with a switch in the dash. It wasn't consistent. Sometimes it would run and stop, not run at all, or run for a bit and die again.

When we got it home I checked the toggle, power to the pump, and the pump itself. The pump is 8 years old so we chose to replace it, and the ignition switch, since it was so cheap. It ran for good while before I shut it down. I called it done.

I was wrong.

The second time it definitely was not a starved for fuel type of death. I've done them accidently by forgetting to turn on the pump with the dash switch. It just shut down with no complaints from the carbs at all. It gave me a bit of warning by cutting out once and I pushed in the clutch and did a mental WTF, then let the clutch out with it still in gear and it caught for a bit before it died completely.

Same symptoms as before. I was stumped. I had a spare coil and module, so I install them because, WTF I'm throwing crap against the wall now. It runs a little and dies.

So now I need to thoroughly follow all my wiring that's associated with ignition. Oh happy day.

I should build a tow bar first.....

That's a better description, @Carlos G.

@Michael Pickett posted:

I'm leaning towards the idea that the fuel pump was blocked either by a filter, a collapsed fuel line between the tank and the pump, or an unvented fuel tank. I've seen similar behavior from a blocked filter as well as a fuel pump that overheated because of limited fuel flow going into the pump.

I'm the "95% of all fuel problems are ignition" broken record, but I'm leaning hard toward a restriction in the fuel system as well. Have you checked the little strainer that lives inside your tank on the end of the fuel tank outlet tube?

Also, you made this comment in your first post:

@Carlos G posted:

The filters are only 5-6 months old with new fuel line. I did that when I had the tank out and I cleaned it.

You're an exceptionally capable guy, but I always start over at the beginning when I'm stumped. The temptation to throw parts at it is high, but try to only do one thing at a time. I'd put the old ignition parts and switch back on it, and see where you are. They clearly didn't fix it, and while parts quality is at an all-time low, the chances of being bad out of the box are not super-high.

Back to fuel - I'm not concerned with how old the filters are. You need to know they're clear. Take them out and try to blow through them. Pull the fitting on the tank and see if it's clear. If the new pump stops running and it's got power - the new one isn't likely to be bad out of the box.

I wish I was there to help.

Carlos wrote, “Sitting there, the pump would come on sometimes and other times not. It was not consistent.”

”The pump is intermittent, and when I can get it started, it runs for a while but then cuts out. No coughing and spitting like fuel starvation, just cut off, like no electric.”

That does NOT sound like a fuel delivery problem.  It doesn’t sputter when it dies, it just plain stops.

So, it either runs, or it don’t.  It’s either a power or ground issue or a problem with the ignition circuit (which drives the pump) because I’m willing to be that when it cuts out BOYH the fuel pump and ignition spark are gone.  

Check the wires from the pump and coil/distributor back to their sources, including switches, fuse panel and/or relays.  Light sandpaper on terminals, fuses and contacts can be your friend.  Personally, I would suspect the fuse panel (even though I don’t know how your fused circuits are configured) or any relay you might have in the pump/ignition circuit.

Other than that, I think Mark covered everything to look at in his post up above.

Unfortunately, it looks like you have to drive it for 20 miles or so to see if your fixes actually work (and get carried back home if they don’t).  

Here's what I would do to start narrowing down causes. I'd get a long wire with a couple of alligator clips and connect it to the positive terminal directly on the fuel pump. I'd run the wire outside the car to the cabin and hook a multimeter to it and to a good ground in the cabin.

I'd see what voltages are measured with the engine running and driving to catch it failing. If the voltages are in a reasonable range (10-14 volts), I'd start looking at the fuel plumbing.

If the voltages drop off then I'd move my wire up the path to connection points until you get to the ignition switch and see where the voltage drop occurs.

Good luck, Carlos. I know this is terribly frustrating.

Better yet - run a pair of wires straight to the battery.

... but after, you know, you check the filters...

My son and his friend left this morning. I haven't started the investigation yet, but it'll be thorough with the help of everything mentioned above.

After we pushed it in the garage on Saturday, I chose to ignore it and spend the rest of the time hanging out with Jim and Shane and tweaking on their cars. We were still able to get some hooning in with the two cars left running. We had good food, beer, and times. We even finished a bottle of whiskey.

We even got visited by a raven when we hiked up to an overlook.

And after spotting this unicorn up on the parkway, my luck has got to get better.

Good job on keeping your priorities straight, @Carlos G!

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Before reading to the end here, I was already leaning towards Michael's test as an easy first step - without starting to pull things apart at random.

BUT, I'd make it two test wires - one to either side of the pump. Run the leads back to the cockpit and connect them to some kind of 12V test lamp. So, the lamp should light when the pump is running. Then, the very next time the pump seems to quit, check the test lamp before jostling anything. Even before getting out and slamming the door shut.

If the lamp is still lit (but the pump isn't humming), you know voltage AND ground to the pump are good, and you've got a bad pump. But if the lamp goes out when the pump quits, you need to start looking further upstream.

Also, the fact that it quit in the same location twice in a row may seem like a coincidence, but may not be. It could be the pump or perhaps a corroded spot in the wiring path is failing when it  gets up to a certain temperature.

Happy hunting.

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And as for quitting twice in the same place, I now recall this story from when my car was brand new.

It kept stalling and dying at the same spot on the freeway, about seven miles from my house. Cruising at 65 just fine, and then at this one spot, it would start coughing and then quit. Luckily it was at an exit, so I'd roll to a stop on the offramp, wait a minute, restart without issue, and I could then drive home.

It turns out the freeway pitched up there at the start of a hill. This required more pedal to maintain speed, and it was then that the car would quit.

If you haven't guessed, the problem was that the floats had never been properly set, and were too low, so when more fuel was required, none was to be had.

Not that this is your problem, but still, it shows the car can run and sound OK with a compromised fuel system for quite a while, until it won't.

My bet is ignition switch. The symptoms are exactly like when my Alfa switch failed.

Junk in the trunk. I had some gear in the trunk and it pushed against the fuel vent and after a while restricted the vent and the car died.

Also fuel pump relay driven by input from tach signal. I have a relay with timed initial prime when first turned on and stays on once a tach signal is present which can also be monitored by oil pressure light.

Start at the beginning regardless of what you've already done. A before B and B before C and so on.

Good luck and sorry to hear your stars aligned drive was usurped by the Gremlin.

For those that are concerned about Carlos' fuel tank vent, Spyder gas caps are self-venting. No hose needed.

I can't decide if it's electrical to the ignition or not, but if it dies like a switch that is the most likely. Whether it's wiring, key switch,  ignition module, or coil, it's electrical in nature.

If it sputs and sputters I'd lean towards fuel issues.

I researched the name Hugh Johnson.  Turns out there was a child prodigy with a consuming interest in electronics with an irrepressible desire to invent a projected oscillating beam.  Probably something similar (but stronger) to what was suspected of impacting our foreign "diplomats".   It seems he disappeared somewhere in the 80s after working for Darpa for many years.  He was rumored to wanting to return to a simpler life.

Hmmm. Could be @Roy.

FOUND IT! At least I'm pretty damn sure.

With the engine running I rocked the wire, marked with a yellow arrow, back and forth and the engine cut out and so did the fuel pump. After the engine cut out, I could make the fuel pump come back on and off and even change in tone just by rocking this wire. I also rocked the wire, marked with a blue dash, where it meets this post and make it do the same thing.

The yellow arrow wire is the main coming from the battery. The one marked with the blue dash is the main for the ignition. The nut on the post wasn't as tight as it's going to be from now on. I'm going to put a new end on the one coming from the battery and just remake a new post to fuse box connector.

While I've got my car on blocks and the wiring harness dangling under the dash, I'm going to track every freakin wire and draw a map of it. This is something I've wanted to do anyway.

We'll see. The simplest things can take you down.

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Attaboy!

Loose lips may sink ships, but loose wires have sunk more weekends than anything.

I'm surprised that any wire would have the chutzpah to come loose on such a neatly wired panel, though.

Congratulations! The gremlins are in retreat. As Mitch notes, that is one neatly done wiring panel.

Good job tracking it down!

Wait a minute, did this loosen due to too much hooning(or brapping, as you call it)?

Or was this not torqued enough by DV(Mr. Verwers)?

Were any star or lock washers used on those bus bars? There should be some sort of lock washer on there unless Nylock nuts were used.

Good on you finding the problem. That wiring does look pretty clean, and easy to troubleshoot(except for having to get under the dash).

@Carlos G posted:

FOUND IT! At least I'm pretty damn sure.

With the engine running I rocked the wire, marked with a yellow arrow, back and forth and the engine cut out and so did the fuel pump. After the engine cut out, I could make the fuel pump come back on and off and even change in tone just by rocking this wire. I also rocked the wire, marked with a blue dash, where it meets this post and make it do the same thing.

The yellow arrow wire is the main coming from the battery. The one marked with the blue dash is the main for the ignition. The nut on the post wasn't as tight as it's going to be from now on. I'm going to put a new end on the one coming from the battery and just remake a new post to fuse box connector.

While I've got my car on blocks and the wiring harness dangling under the dash, I'm going to track every freakin wire and draw a map of it. This is something I've wanted to do anyway.

We'll see. The simplest things can take you down.

While you’re at it give the connections a dab of DeoxIT Gold. You’ll never have another problem with it  

Man, that’s a beautiful fuse panel.

Just because it looks clean doesn't mean it's perfect. The wiring harness is pretty nice in this car, but I think a chimpanzee put it together.

I've also found some other marginal fittings in my travels under the dash. One was possibly causing my turn signals to be weak. I need to check the low beams too. They're pitiful.

I only cramped twice.

@Carlos G posted:

Just because it looks clean doesn't mean it's perfect. The wiring harness is pretty nice in this car, but I think a chimpanzee put it together.

I've also found some other marginal fittings in my travels under the dash. One was possibly causing my turn signals to be weak. I need to check the low beams too. They're pitiful.

I only cramped twice.

I got under the dash with the seats out when I was building the car. I put some lawn furniture pads under me. I got all the tools and supplies I thought I needed.

Then I had Michelle on standby to grab anything else that always crops up. Having that was priceless(you always need something else)! Or you drop something and can't retrieve it because it's under you!

Every. Single. Time.

Excellent news, Carlos.

Danny, I laughed out loud. I thought I was the only guy to lay on stuff he dropped.

One of the times I cramped was trying to reach something I dropped.

I did remove the seats for my gauge install. I used a moving blanket under me. I just removed the steering wheel this time.

I also found that you go in the opposite side to where you work. I go in from the passenger door opening to work under the steering wheel.

When I was doing my pedals and cleaning up some stuff under my dash, that’s what I did after removing the steering wheel. It was surprisingly comfortable.

@Carlos G

That's FANTASTIC!

Finding a loose bus connection can be a super pain in the patootie but once you find it and correct it (and check all of the other connections in your car 'cuz now you're out for blood) everything is just so much better.

I'm sure it was a lotta work, but you found it and fixed it.

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Good luck improving the lighting, Carlos.

There are quite a few threads in the archives about our various struggles on that field of battle. Most involve relays, heavier gauge wiring, and H4 or even LED conversions. It looks like you've already got two relays (and a spare, too!) which I'd wager are for headlights, but you'll need to check.

Loose wiring seems to be another Achilles heel of the small volume, hand-made car. Which is surprising as it wasn't common until popularized by British Leyland in the late 60s. This was around the same time that they developed the oil-permeable gasket and contactless electrical switch, both of which further transformed the British auto industry.

Keep up the good work.

Good on ya, Carlos.

Attaboy, @Carlos G !!

A synopsis of any work I've done on my cars:

1. Total Repair Project Time = 3 hours (1 hour of actually working on the repair and 2 hours spent trying to get down and up off the ground or from under the steering wheel during the repair project).

Key to working under a spyder dash is seats out, padding on the floor (we us told seat cushions), neck or shoulder on the cowl hoop, head under the dash, back of your knees on the upper rear firewall trim and feet on the clamshell.

I've spent HOURS, probably days or weeks worth of them, under a spyder like this.  It's pretty comfortable once settled in, just getting into and OUT OF that position is what really sucks.

@chines1

You know......   I've often wondered why you walk like that.    🤣