engine keeps running after turning off key

i'm a pround new owner of a 1959 replica...

i had this car tuned last spring (at a porcshe dealer)... and have put approx 1000km since the tune...

after driving the car for say 15 min or so.. .and the engine heats up

I turn the key off and the engine sputters and trys to continue to run a bit... my first guess is the timing is off???

what would cause this.. and could i easily adjust this???

A Porsche dealer??? You have a VW engine,it needs to go to a VW engine shop for best results.

What is your idle speed? anything more than around 1100 RPM may cause run on when the key is shut off.. High timing and hot head temps will also increase this. The stock temp gauge is for oil temps and is very slow to respond to tuning changes.

You may want to look at the position of the fuel filter. Is it too close to the engine. What can happen is that with the heat the fuel inside the filter bubbles and when the engine is turned off there can be some run on after the ket is off. If this is the case try to move it so that it is away from the engine or anything else hot by about 3 inches.

Are you using the best grade gas? Make sure you do.

Timing advanced.

Yup, timing advanced.

Yup, timing advanced.

Setting the timing is easy, but different for vacuum advance and centrifugal advance. Go out and get a good VW shop manual like Bentleys or Haynes, just to read their timing set explanation.
But for us "real men" who don't read manuals (yeah, right....) here we go:

BTW: there are a number of questions to answer before diving into this, like what type of disti you have (vacuum, Bosch 009, etc) but this explanation is generic (mainly included because there is nothing in the knowlege section on how to time your engine!!!

Vacuum advance: (It'll have a vacuum hose running from the carb(s) or intake manifold to a little diaphragm on the side of the distributor): Pull off the vacuum line at the disti and plug it (gently) with a pencil. Loosen the clamp at the base of the disti to allow movement with a little effort (not super-loose). Buy or borrow a 12 volt timing light, and attach it to power and #1 cylinder spark plug wire as per the lights' instructions.
The timing mark (notch) is on the crankshaft pulley at top dead center (TDC) and may or may not have an indicator just to the side of the center of the case, (the case center is where the two sides of the case come together). The indicator has little notches in it noting 2,4,6,etc degrees of advance (this is also assuming you have a pulley with no timing degrees on a sticker on the face of the pulley). Alternatively, sometimes there is no indicator, but the stock pulley has one big and one small notch on the pulley lip.

OK, to time this disti, make sure the timing light is hooked up and the lights' wires are away from moving pulleys, and give you room to move around the disti. Start the engine, and, when you pull the trigger on the light you should see it pulse (DON'T look directly at it!!) - aim it at the crankshaft pulley (this is best done in a garage away from the Sun) and you should see the timing notch sitting somewhere near the top, adjacent to a notch on the indicator (dual-notch pulleys explained later). Note where it is in degrees on the indicator, and back it down a couple of degrees by turning the body of the disti clockwise or anti-clockwise (as you turn the body, you'll see the timing mark move against the scale). The VW manuals show different timing specs for different years and they're all over the place. I like to start with 6 degrees advanced and work from there. Pretty cool, huh? And you thought it might be complicated!......If you have a dual-notch pulley, line the smaller notch up on the case half division, and that's it.

Once you get it where you want it, stop the engine and tighten the clamp on the bottom of the disti shaft (not too tight, and don't move the body!), re-connect the vacuum hose, remove the timing light and re-connect the #1 spark plug lead, then take it out for a test. See if it now stops better when you shut it off. If not, try backing the advance down another degree (but no lower than 4 degrees). If that doesn't cure it, let us know and we'll go from there (may be overheated fuel lines or something else).

Now! For those with centrifugal advance disti's, there is NO vacuum diaphragm on the side of the disti, and advance is set differently. We'll also assume that you have a "degree'd" crankshaft pulley, one which shows all 360 degrees around the face of the pulley (some of which are even accurate, but that's another story and doesn't matter here).
Hook up the light and loosen the disti clamp as above, and have someone else sit in the drivers seat, start the car and run it up to 3,000 RPM and hold it there (ear muffs might be recommended, here). While its running at 3000 RPM, point the light at the crankshaft pulley and see what degree is showing right where the case halfs come together. It should be 30 degrees. If not, make it so by rotating the disti body one way or the other until it shows 30 degrees of advance. That's it. Stop the engine, remove the light, tighten the clamp and road test it. If that doesn't cure it, try going to 25 degrees at 3K rpm, and if THAT doesn't work, let us know and we'll help diagnose further (yes, it IS curable!)

Good luck, and keep away from moving/spinning parts while setting timing!!!

Gordon
The "temporarily Bachelor Speedstah Guy" in Rhode Island

BTW: It's perfectly OK to take your car to a Porsche dealer/garage for a tune-up - they should be able to do that just fine.
However! A good, neighborhood garage/mechanic with aircooled VW experience should be just as good, if not better, than the Porsche guys and should also be a hell of a lot cheaper for you!! Ask around (like at auto parts stores) - those guys are out there, still!

Gordon,
Great write up. Now for the toughie, I have a non-vac advance dist. and only one big notch on the pulley. Any guidance??
thanks

Troy

Troy:

In these days of uncertainty and the impending US Presidential election, we all (you, me, Postal workers, Speedy's, etc) are under more than our share of anxiety and we're all looking for ways to generally feel better about life, the weather and the state of our beloved Speedsters.

Now...to that end, you wouldn't want your little Princess to feel inferior, would you?

NO!

You would want that little Speedster to feel GOOD about itself and not feel that it is lacking in some small way to those other "Glamour-puss" Speedsters running around the streets of Pleasenton, CA (where the heck IS THAT, anyway?).

Why would you make that little Speedster zip around and feel short-changed by spinning a plain, old, single-notch crankshaft pulley?? Look at all those other Speedy's zipping around! THEY all have nice, shiny, polished, aluminum pulleys with spiffy, degree'd etchings on their faces showing all three hundred sixty degrees around them!

I bet, that if you went out and bought your Speedy a new degree'd crankshaft pulley as a gift, put it on and re-timed your ignition to 30 degrees BTDC at 3,000 RPM, your little Speedy would be so happy she'd reward you with a nice boost in performance, just to say "Thank You!"

Anyway, THAT's what I would do if I had one of those plain-Jane pulley's, yessiree!

gn

Wow you make me feel like a dog for treating the little lovely poorly. I'v only had the car three months so I don't feel too bad. I have thought about the pulley replacement but was not sure how big job is it. Also if you look at the pics of the car you will note the very UGLY Gold wheels that the previous owner stuck on the little doll that I need to change but that is a whole other story.

How difficult is it to replace the pulley? I've already changed the muffler, fuel pump, head light cans and battery so what the heck just dirty hands.

Thanks for the laugh. Oh yea Pleasanton is about 30 miles SE of San Francisco (more east than south)
Troy

Troy:

I used to get all screwed up on directions whenever I flew into San Francisco, because with the Ocean out the passenger window, I must be going North, right? (always lived on the New England coast). Still never feel comfortable around there....

Replacing the pulley is easy...all you need is the right size socket (preferably 1/2" drive) for the size of the pulley bolt, a 24" handle extension for your ratchet or breaker-bar (think a 2 ft. long piece of steel pipe big enough to fit over the ratchet handle) and a large screw-driver.

Remove the fan belt, first. Put the ratchet on the pulley bolt and crank slowly anti-clockwise until one of the holes in the pulley lines up with a case division and insert the screw driver in the hole to hold the pulley in place. Slide the pipe down over the ratchet handle (effectively making the handle much longer) and slowly move the ratchet and nut backwards while holding the screwdriver to prevent the pulley from moving. You should find that it loosens right up (maybe with a little grunting, but not too much). Once it loosens up you can spin it right off.

Putting on a new one is the reverse, but it should be torqued to 29-36 foot pounds - I would borrow a 0-60 ft. lbs. torque wrench for this, although you COULD tighten it without if you're good (but why risk it?)

Both CB and Gene Berg sell degree'd pulleys that I would trust. There are others out there, but I've used both of those and they are pretty accurate. Some of the cheap imports can be off by 5 degrees or more when you line them up - they SAY 0 degrees TDC, but they're either ahead or behind that in reality - not cool.

Swapping a pulley, even for the uninitiated, shouldn't take more than 30 minutes or so.

gn

THE EL-CHEAPO ALTERNATIVE:

You know, you could also go to an art supply or college bookstore and get a good protractor, put your ratchet on the pulley bolt and line up that single pulley notch with the case half division (making it top dead center(?)). Then, with your protractor positioned at the pivot point of the ratchet/socket to measure degrees of turn, you could rotate the pulley in increments of 10 degrees and simply put a white paint mark on the lip of the pulley every 10 degrees. It's not elegant (or super-accurate), but it works, and it's good enough to place you within the infield of the ballpark.

BTW: Those single mark pulleys usually had a little sheetmetal gauge thingy affixed to the case to tell you #of degrees BTDC. Otherwise, how would you know where it was?

The problem with this approach, is that you don't know what that single mark stands for; top dead center? 6 degrees before TDC? Something else? There are ways to find out (remove #1 spark plug and put a coat-hanger wire into the hole to touch the top of the piston and watch for the top of the piston stroke to find TDC is the best) but it's a minor PITA to do, especially in a cramped Speedster engine bay.

Get a degree'd pulley. You'll thank me for it.

gn

Buy this tool with your pulley. It makes the job easy and safe. It's worth $20.00 to do it right.


www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=ACC%2DC10%2D7013

Reminds me of the time a friend called and told me he was having trouble getting his flywheel off and could I help? He brings the engine over and already had a 1/2" drive socket on the gland nut. I get out my impact wrench and give it a blast and...nothing. I get out our BIG gun and hit it a few more times and......nothing, and this is with a 450 ft. lb. gun and LOTS of air.

Finally I take off the socket and look closely at the gland nut......the damn thing has had a couple of the flats welded to the flywheel! No WONDER it wouldn't come loose!!

Greg,

What carb(s) are you running on the engine?

A quick point on this, as I understand it a lighter pulley isn't necessarily the best thing for you engine. A heavy(ish) pulley helps with harmonic balancing. Even more important if you are running a high revving engine.

I'd avoid fashion, and get your existing pulley marked up.

Or spend a few quid and buy a Gene Berg pulley

I whole-heartedly agree on the heavy Gene Berg Pulley. If harmonic balancing pulleys weren't needed, then why do millions of other engines have them?

I always thought that the VW flat boxster syle engine was balanced by design and didn't need any external harmonic balancer . . . ?

It's a little more involved than that...

As the crankshaft is turning, the power pulses from the pistons cause the crank to turn in "pulses" which, under extreme acceleration, can distort that pristine straight-line shape of the crankshaft momentarily, actually making it "twist" from one end to the other, which causes additional stress and wear on the bearings (as well as robbing minute amounts of power to the wheels).

All-out racers can benefit from a heavier pulley on the fan end, to balance out the weight from the flywheel to the pulley ends and actually make a bit more wheel power on "hole shots". They don't act as much as a harmonic balancer, per se, but act more to keep the crankshaft from twisting along its length under really hard acceleration by balancing weight from end-to-end.

The questions to ask before shelling out your Limperas for one of these are: (1.) Will I be pulling a lot of 2nd gear hole shots with this engine? and (2.) Will I be consistently turning over 6000 rpm as I run through the gears whilst escaping from the "buzzy-exhaust, Japanese Car Crowd"? If you answer "yes!" to either of these, then you would probably benefit from a Berg "Equalizer" crankshaft pulley. If you can't honestly answer "yes" to these questions, then you probably don't need one...

gn

Gordon,

My new engine is an 1835, stock crank, fk8 cam, Mag 44 ported heads, 1:4 rockers on solid shafts, moly pushrods, AJ Sims Kads/manifolds/linkage, Mallory box and distributor, and the rest of the usual stuff. I went with an 8 dowel job on the crank, over-sized gland nut, and a lightened flywheel rather than the balancer.

There's still time to go back to a stock flywheel and buy a balancer to counter the weight. Do you think that I ought to? Or stick with what I have now?

I like a lightened flywheel for the response, and really don't sweat the idle rump (it scares the dogs and children away), but you've got me thinking about the whole balanced package. Do you run with a Berg pulley? Just re-thinking . . . you seem to have a good handle on what to do and not to do when it comes to getting performance from these motors.

TC

I bet that most of people who are running race bred engines (and/or drive them that way) are running lightened flywheels, and may or may not be running the heavier belt pulleys.

The real questions are: How do you expect to drive it, and how long do you expect it to last that way? You'll have a small-to-medium fire-breather there, and if you are taking it to the drags and expect to beat on it with full power acceleration runs, then you'll WANT the lightened flywheel (for a faster spin-up) and also want the heavier pulley to balance out the power pulses along the crank under full acceleration. However, most of the time that I've seen the heavier pulleys has been on really built engines, usually over 2 liter and making lots of horsepower. I would also expect that you'll be tearing it down at least at the end of the drag season for a rebuild, anyway - it's just part of the turf.

If, on the other hand, this is a "hot street" engine that won't see regular excursions above 6,000 rpm under full load, and is mainly to be used for turnpike and back road cruising, then you probably won't beat on it anywhere near as much, you'll expect it to last far longer between rebuilds and, in my opinion, getting a heavier belt pulley is not money well spent. I believe that both the higher-power-per-cylinder and the higher RPM's are the key to using one of those heavy pulleys.

I do not have one on my 2110 (although I do have a lightened, 8-dowel flywheel), and my "Walter Mitty" nature gets nervous when the rev's get much over 5 grand (even though it sounds soo GOOD up there!), so I decided I wouldn't need it. If I decided to run this at the drags as often as Chris does with his Eclipse, I would probably spring for one, more for additional power at the wheels than for longevity. Then again, maybe I should just ride with Chris to see sub-12-second quarters!!

gn

the Berg pulleys ARE NOT BALANCERS, NOR ARE THEY DAMPERS, they are just heavy pulleys. For a pulley to be a damper it has to have a way to convert the crankshaft vibration into heat, which a heavy pulley does not do.

The crank, flywheel, and pulley are like a spring/mass system. It will have a resonance that the system will want to oscillate at, it's frequency. If you increase the mass of the system by putting a heavier pulley on it, all you do is lower the frequency at which it vibrates, but the same amount of energy is still in the system as before!

A true damper will have a rubber ring, a viscous fluid, or a clutch mechanism inside the damper, to absorb the vibration and convert it to heat. We have the finest dampers for the VW engine available, they are around $300 each but are unmatched by anything available.

Light flywheels are fine, and there is no drivability problem unless the engine is a complete dog or out of tune. If you want a reality check, find out how "heavy" a flywheel is on a new car, like a Honda (make sure it's a 4 cylinder). If they have no problem with drivability with that light flywheel in a heavier car then ours, do you really think you will in a lighter car? The VW flywheel was 18lbs from the factory because VW wanted 16yo new-drivers and 85yo women to be able to drive the car. If you feel you have that level of coordination, then perhaps an 18lb flywheel, or a 8lb pulley, should be equipped on your engine. But if you do have some coordination, and want to do "spirited" driving, a light flywheel is one of the first things that should be done to your engine, no question. But adding weight to the pulley end of the crank is a huge mistake, especially when it's hanging off the smallest main bearing of the 4l It will actually increase crank twist, which also increases spark scatter since the dist drive gear is on the pulley end of the crankshaft.

John
Aircooled.Net Inc.

wow some awesome feedback.. been so busy. and I had put the car in storage for the winter...

BUT.. I actually found the problem..when the car died at a stop sign..after snooping around the engine compartment... i found that the wire that was attatched to the coil from the distributor had fallen off... when I tried to re-attatch it.. I noticed it was very loose... after tightening that clip.. the car has never sputtered again..after turning off the key :)


as for taking it to the porcshe dealer... I had called boardwalk volkswagen and they would not touch it... and I did not want to have to drive 30+ miles for a tuneup..

funny part was.. the porsche dealer took excellent care of me and even parked it inside next to a 911 ruff.. vs outside with the rest of the boxters and 911s hahaha

Greg,

They know class when they see it.

Bruce

Hey Guys...just built a souped up iron-head sportster and they actually make a harmonic dampner for the thing and it actually works...looks close to the same size as the pulley on the VW...has anyone tried this yet?...of course, what would a Harley be without the cool vibes betwixt your legs?...varooooooooooooooom!

eat more haggis!...boot Scotland's economy!

haggis, because i'm of scottish hertitage i tried it, but i don't have to like it.

Hey Bruce (as in Robert?...)...haggis is an acquired taste...like vintage speedsters and bagpipes but not necessarily in that order...probably throw in kilts too!...hehe!

old bagpipers never die...their bags just dry up...

I always skipped the haggis and just drank the scotch.

When I replaced the pulley on my car, the nut came off easy enough but the pulley required a wheel puller. It was on tight. Comments?

Yup, that's about right. They tend to stick pretty well, and often need a puller to get them off.