engine mods

just want to get some opinions: my current engine build is as follows:

92mm bore
76mm stroke

dual kadron carbs, stock valve size, stock cam, ported/ polished head...mostly berg parts.

what would you guys do with this motor to take it to the next step... cam, carbs, new head (larger valves)? let's say my budget is $2K for parts. let me hear some opinions. i'm looking for more (reliable) hp.

thanks,
george

To go along with the stroker motor, you could go with the larger valve heads, Total Seal rings, 120 cam, straight cut gears, billet Pertonics distributor, good quality exhaust like an A-1.
As with any bigger motor, the more HP/torque your create, it develops additional heat which needs to be addressed. I'm sure you'll get a lot of ideas from others here too. ~Alan

sorry, forgot to mention that i already have a real nice exhaust from a-1.

A set of big valve heads, and a good cam will run $800.00-$1000.00, depending on types selected.....If the engine is updated with these, the next step is carbs....44IDFs, at about $750.00. The engine is small enough in that it may not need an external oil cooler, however an extended thinline sump will be an INSURANCE move...about $100.00....That pretty much blows the $2000.00 budget...If you are going to rev over 6000rpm, consider a balanced and welded fan....another $100.00.....

Prices are intended to include misc. parts required, and possibly shipping.....

Hope this helps....

do you guys know if i can go bigger displacement without machining with slip-ins?

http://www.lowbugget.com/pistonpage.html

but, if it were my engine, I'd go with a longer crank for more torque

Leon is right about the Thin Line Filter sump. I got mine from C.B. Performance and can honestly say that it dropprd my engine temps by
at least 20 degrees. Maybe a bit more. My 1915 cc engine ran 2/3 the way to the top of the gauge which I measured with a temprature dip stick at about 235 degrees. Now on an 80 degree day at a steady 65 mph I'm running about 195 degrees. I hoped this sump would lower my engine temps but had no idea it would be as effective as it is.---Jack

sorry, i forgot another thing: i already have the external oil filter.

is 94mm the largest bore i could go with?

without cutting your case and heads.

But, if you stroke the engine, it will run a bit cooler than if you go to larger cylinders/pistons

anyone else have any other input?

Larry Jowdy and Stroker McGurk...."Stroke it!" they're right....only way to increase displacement without machining the case and heads....It does lower engine temps also....

what stroke would you recommend? isn't it already pretty "stroked"?

ditch the kadrons and go with webers. the cost will only be a few hundred more and you'll have more than twice the carbs. 40mm's would be good for your engine size.

and the heads... don't chince on the heads.

Stock stroke is 69mm and with 92 pistons, that equals 1835 cc's
74 with 92 pistons equals 1968cc's
76, your engine has 2020 cc's
78 with 92 pistons equals 2074
82 stroke with 92 pistons equals 2180 cc's

I,m putting a 2176cc in my Speedie this week. Here are the specs:
78.4 counterweighted crank- lightened flywheel, street eliminator heads ported and polished by Jeff Denham 40x37.5 stainless steel valves- dual valve springs ,1.25 ratio rockers, HD rocker shafts ,Engle 130 cam- Bugpack straight cut cam gears,Mahle forged 94 mm pistons, Rimco super rods ,Chromoly head studs, Chromoly gland nut, 3 1/2 qt deep sump, Jaycee pushrod tubes, blueprinted full flow oil pump dual 40 webber carbs (I think I might get 48s)what do you think? Markos

Markos wrote: "78.4 counterweighted crank- lightened flywheel, street eliminator heads ported and polished by Jeff Denham 40x37.5 stainless steel valves- dual valve springs ,1.25 ratio rockers, HD rocker shafts ,Engle 130 cam- Bugpack straight cut cam gears,Mahle forged 94 mm pistons, Rimco super rods ,Chromoly head studs, Chromoly gland nut, 3 1/2 qt deep sump, Jaycee pushrod tubes, blueprinted full flow oil pump dual 40 webber carbs (I think I might get 48s)"

George: In my experience, a 76mm-ish stroker crank (counterbalanced) should work well for you, along with 044 heads with roughly the same size valves as Markos. You won't need the dual valve springs unless you're planning on consistent revs North of 6 grand, so stick with the single HD springs - your cam will last longer.
Speaking of cams, an Engle 130 is pretty radical for the street and won't idle all that smooth. Go with an Engle 120 instead - it's easier to tame.
Straight cut cam gears sound cool, but sometimes that gear noise can get on your nerves (but, then...you're younger than me, too!)

Try to get Mahle short-skirt pistons. Make sure the case has "case saver" inserts installed. Don't know about Chromoly gland nuts - never needed to use one. 3-1/2 qt deep sump will really hang down there. Ask Ricardo about bottoming out his sump.....
G
o with a Berg full-flow oil pump, along with their pressure-relief pump cover and get the case full-flowed (if it isn't already). 40mm carbs (Webers or Dells) should be fine for that engine (under 2200 cc). 44mm's will be getting a little too big and 48mm's will be wasted (not adequate engine flow to make them work right).

I don't expect universal agreement with these suggestions, just know they've worked well for me....

gordon,

are you saying that i should keep the bore the same too?

george

Sure....bore's fine. As Larry said - stroke it a little to gain more mid-range torque. Shoot for that 2060 package.

It's the mid-range torque you'll feel, not the top-end horsepower.

Just jumping in here....

I'd look hard at getting away from the 92s, unless they are the new thick-walled parts- if they are "regular" 92s, they are thin-walled and the least desirable of all options for cylinders.

If he's got the "regular" 92s, I'd say- go with 90.5s (or the cut-down 94s) if you don't want to re-do the case and heads. Otherwise the advice given so far (good heads, 40 or 44 IDFs, etc.) seems solid to me. I'm a big fan of high-lift and shorter duration cams, but I'd talk to whoever was doing the heads about cam selection before I randomly chose one.

My only other coda would be to go ahead and get the remote oil cooler and a Mocal sandwich bypass thermostat. A big-'ol sump will only delay the inevitable- and a remote cooler will really help.

lets say that i wanted to make about 150hp...what would the recommendations be then?

" lets say that i wanted to make about 150hp...what would the recommendations be then?"

Start by upgrading the car itself, the transaxle, brakes, suspension, CVs and axles in particular. A roll bar perhaps . . .

When you get up to 150hp and over, you need to address everything else first. For some terrific information from some serious Motor Men:

http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewforum.php?f=15&sid=001cccc07c912d6a62713c9a4cda918c

Luck!

TC

If you would like some first hand experience with the potential of various engine configurations, come to Carlisle,Pa......Put that Mexicrate in your trunk and maybe some one will take it ....Bigger market.....

wow....lots of good comments in here.

Actually, running everything mentioned here (even with the 92.5 jugs) will get you pretty close to 150hp - so close you'd never miss the several hp. PLUS you'll have bodacious mid-range torque, which I would MUCH rather have than top end horsepower.

I have the dyno sheet for the late Jim Ward's engine, and it was a nicely built 2,110 with pretty much all the same stuff you've been told about on here. The sheet showed it running 20W-50 oil, NGK D6EA plugs, valves set to .002 all around, with 30 degrees total advance and it was putting out 143 hp at 5,500 rpm, BUT the mid-range torque number was something like 150 ft. lbs. at 5,000 rpm. Even more interesting, was that the torque curve was pretty flat, coming on strong at 2,800 rpm (130 ft. lbs.) and rising gradually to peak at 149 at 5 Grand. THAT's use-able power.

I did a lot of work on my engine to get it to "flow" nicely from carbs to manifolds to cam to heads to exhaust and, even after all that work, I'm only running 148 hp at 5,800 BUT I'm seeing 166 ft. lbs. of torque at 5,000 rpm. Again, useable power.

Anyway, something to think about...

gn

thanks for the replies. i didn't realize that jim had passed away. i had always admired his car. i'll take this advice and figure out what my choices are. probably stay within the size i have, spend good money on heads, match the cams, and throw on some webbers. i'm hoping i'll be able to feel it in the seat of my pants...

George,
Regarding the Dellorto 48s, they're too big. I have Dell 48 tri-jets on my 2332 (84 stroke, 94 bore) with Street Elim heads (44 / 37.5). I've learned the Dells are too big. I have choked down the venturis to 36mm in order to get enough air acceleration in mid throttle to tame them into street drivability. Still, tuning is touchy because they are constantly on the edge of too much. Dell 45s would have been a better choice for me (although I would miss the "mine's bigger than yours" zipper check when pointing at those big 48s).

Something confuses me about your parts selection: You've spent a ton of money on heads, you are considering a really radical cam, you've listed some other first class components, but you've wimped-out on your stroke and bore.

My $.02: You are already spending all the money, but you are leaving the store without all the power. Unless it's too late, there is no excuse for anything other than the 94mm cylinders. Then, pick your stroke. If you have an OEM mag case, then 78mm stroke seems like a solid choice (for 2165 cc). If you have an aluminum case, there is no reason for anything other than 82mm (2276 cc), or 84mm (2332 cc).

With your heads and any of those displacement combinations you should land between your target 150 hp and reasonably up to 170 hp, even with a more streetable 120 or 110 cam. (Also, you will need the dual valve springs that I'm sure your heads came with, and you will be routinely visiting 6000+ rpm -- because it's so goooood!

On the flip side, you ditched the storied reputation of carefree VW ownership and longivity somewhere back around 1800 cc and 50 hp. So just be aware that you will become close and personal with your "baby".

Mark

Didn't you just build that motor fairly recently? Your best bet would be to install a performance cam or ratio rockers if you don't want to split the case (as I did). Your existing heads could be re-used if they're already ported. Definitely swap the carbs for dual throat Webers or Dellortos.

ricardo,

i bought it two years ago from a friend of mine. it has ration rockers and stock valves. unfortunately, i'm just getting greedy with power and want more...