Engine oil questions for my new VS

i also live in the detroit area, call me an i will help you. bill 313-3314104

Slowshoes, first of all, welcome to the madness and congratulations on your new car, I hope you get many miles of fun and satisfaction driving it!

As far as oil goes, I've run Brad Penn (high zinc) 10w-40 but have switched to Lucas oil as they have a higher zinc content, I still use 10w-40 but they also have 10w-30.

Your oil capacity should be 3 1/2-4 quarts: 2 1/2 stock engine plus a quart to quart and a half for cooler, lines and filter.

Your cooler is most likely mounted on the forward side of the engine firewall, above the transaxle.

I would change my break-in oil at 200 miles...or so.

3K between after break-in unless you run synthetic which can extend the mileage between changes.

http://www.cbperformance.com/S...sp?Search=oil+change

A good reference is Rob & Dave's VW aircooled reference ---- http://www.vw-resource.com/engine_oil.html#synthetic

Link has a lot of good information - you just need an oil with ZDDP additives.  Castrol, Valvoline, Mobil all have an oil with that and are available at Walmart.  Many like Brad Penn, Amzoil or Royal purple but they are often hard to come by and costly.  Some even use Shell Rotella which is designed for diesel engines. A stock VW engine takes only 2.5 quarts but a slim line added sump will increase capacity by 1.5 quarts and a remote filter, cooler and lines by another quart.  Just be careful about overfilling as it can blow seals and really make a mess.   Follow the lines to see where the oil cooler is located - usually the left rear wheel well or above the transaxle forward of the engine. With an external oil filter, your engine may not be using the mesh screen but the gaskets are still needed.  Most will advise a valve adjustment every 3k oil change or at least every other (if no excessive valve noise is noticed).

There is a paltry VS owners manual in SOC under RESOURCES then LIBRARY> It's available to donating members - is only about 15 pages so won't answer many questions. Surprised it wasn't furnished with car?   I'd buy the Muir book An Idiot's Guide to Keeping Your VW Alive and a Bentley or even Hayes manual that covers basic year of VW chassis (so probably 1968 if swing axle rear).

If you have a full flow filter there will be an oil hose coming off the oil pump cover (rear of engine at the bottom). Here's a pic of the cover location- it'll be somewhat hidden by the exhaust and the pulley sheetmetal. My computer's acting weird and I can't find the pic I just downloaded, so this will have to do- you can just see the cover behind the exhaust collector.

And here's what a full flow filter set will look like. The filter will probably be mounted in the rear left wheelwell, and yours may have 1 fitting like this, and the oil will go back into the engine via a hose and fitting above and the the left of the oil pump (still hidden by the pulley sheetmetal). It may return by hose to the cover (it will have 2 fittings) or it could just have a filter hanging off of it.

If the engine has an external cooler you'll be able to find it by following the oil lines. Hope this helps. Al

 Hi Fellas,

 Thanks for all of the great information (and the congrats Will) - very helpful. So with an external oil filter, do I still change the mesh screen, if I have to do the gaskets anyway?

 Wolfgang - you mentioned a slim line sump will add 1.5 qts to the oil capacity. Is the slim line sump something that I would have because of the added oil cooler. (sorry if that is a stupid question, but I don't know, so I have to ask).

 Al - your right, my external filter is in the left wheel well. Does the wheel need to come off to change it? If so, where should I jack up the car and where should the jack stands be placed?

 Any thoughts on the valve adjustment video. He seems like he's covering the bases, but that's coming from my perspective (who's never done it).

  Thanks again guys.

   Bill

The photo Al posted is of NO added sump.  Some use a screen with an external filter, others do not.  If you choose not to run the screen - get a sump plate with a magnetic center drain bolt.  The little nuts around the sump plate are very fragile and get torqued to inch pounds!  Caution as they are easy to strip.  They take new little copper washer which should come in the gasket kit.

Since car is new you should have gotten or should request an engine build sheet.  It will say what distributor you have (needed for timing), the type push rods - steel or alloy (needed for valve adjustment), grind on cam - useful should you decide you need more power.

Here's photo of a thin line sump (the plate does not have the oil drain plug which I would recommend).  It probably would have been and extra cost item (maybe $100).

Welcome to the "Maddness" Bill!

It amazes me that VS gives their customers no information about their cars...They just take your money and send you down the road! 

Bill

crhemi (Bill) poboiinhawaii posted:

It amazes me that VS gives their customers no information about their cars...They just take your money and send you down the road! 

Yup. Unlike Henry from Intermeccannica (Did I spell that right) who flew down from Canada and took us out to dinner then spent the weekend going over all the details about my car. And I bought it used from a guy in Oceanside.

Rusty S posted:

crhemi (Bill) poboiinhawaii posted:

It amazes me that VS gives their customers no information about their cars...They just take your money and send you down the road! 

Yup. Unlike Henry from Intermeccannica (Did I spell that right) who flew down from Canada and took us out to dinner then spent the weekend going over all the details about my car. And I bought it used from a guy in Oceanside.

 Going above and beyond - it makes you feel good about what your buying right off the bat. All too rare nowadays.

 Wolfgang - I went ahead and emailed Kirk about a build sheet for the engine per your suggestion. Hopefully he'll have something for me.

Bill:  I watched the valve check video - Looks as good as anything and setting at .006" will do no bad.  The video's pretty complete.

Get a sump plate with a drain plug in it and use that to drain the oil, rather than removing the sump plate (which is incredibly messy).  A drain plug with a magnet in it is better.  If you leave the screen in there, you can check it every 12,000 miles or so, if you're curious, but the screen is good for filtering out pebbles and lost 4mm nuts and that's about it.  If you add a deeper sump, make sure you also extend the oil pickup tube down into the deeper bowels of the sump, too.  Otherwise, what's the point?

You should ask Kirk (or note on the engine build sheet) whether this engine has aluminum or steel push rods.  If he doesn't know (or doesn't have time to answer ) check which ones you have when you first check the valves (when you change the break-in oil would be nice) by removing a valve cover, spotting the push rods and touch a small magnet against the push rod.  If it doesn't stick, they're aluminum.  If it DOES stick, then their steel.

Set Steel push rods at .002" for BOTH intake and exhaust.

If they're out as far as .006", nothing bad will happen, but they'll make a lot of clattering noise (great when you pull in to Cars and Coffee)  

Set Aluminum push rods at .006" for both intake and exhaust.   Get as close as you can on a COLD engine (let it sit overnight, first).

On oil, I like these:  Brad Penn Green, Gibbs, Royal Purple and Lucas - go for as much zync content as you can get for a flat-tappet engine.  If it gets hot where you live (over 90º F is HOT!) then go for 10W-40 in the summer.  In the winter, or if you plan on starting it a few times during the winter, I would run 10W-30.   Stay away from 20W-50 as it will most likely make your engine run hotter.

Gordon Nichols posted:

Bill:  I watched the valve check video - Looks as good as anything and setting at .006" will do no bad.  The video's pretty complete.

Get a sump plate with a drain plug in it and use that to drain the oil, rather than removing the sump plate (which is incredibly messy).  A drain plug with a magnet in it is better.  If you leave the screen in there, you can check it every 12,000 miles or so, if you're curious, but the screen is good for filtering out pebbles and lost 4mm nuts and that's about it.  If you add a deeper sump, make sure you also extend the oil pickup tube down into the deeper bowels of the sump, too.  Otherwise, what's the point?

You should ask Kirk (or note on the engine build sheet) whether this engine has aluminum or steel push rods.  If he doesn't know (or doesn't have time to answer ) check which ones you have when you first check the valves (when you change the break-in oil would be nice) by removing a valve cover, spotting the push rods and touch a small magnet against the push rod.  If it doesn't stick, they're aluminum.  If it DOES stick, then their steel.

Set Steel push rods at .002" for BOTH intake and exhaust.

If they're out as far as .006", nothing bad will happen, but they'll make a lot of clattering noise (great when you pull in to Cars and Coffee)  

Set Aluminum push rods at .006" for both intake and exhaust.   Get as close as you can on a COLD engine (let it sit overnight, first).

On oil, I like these:  Brad Penn Green, Gibbs, Royal Purple and Lucas - go for as much zync content as you can get for a flat-tappet engine.  If it gets hot where you live (over 90º F is HOT!) then go for 10W-40 in the summer.  In the winter, or if you plan on starting it a few times during the winter, I would run 10W-30.   Stay away from 20W-50 as it will most likely make your engine run hotter.

 Thanks for the information Gordon (and watching the video too - I really wanted to get someone with experience to watch it to make sure he's doing things correctly, as I wouldn't really know).

 Where would be the best place to get a sump plate with a drain plug with a magnet in it be? Is there a website that has many of the parts one might need for our cars?

 I did specifically ask Kirk about the push rods, distributor, and the grind on cam when I emailed about the engine build sheet today per Wolfgang's suggestion. I hope he has some information for me because, as of right now, I have nothing.

 The Brad Penn oil says partial synthetic - some of the older threads I've read say synthetic can cause leaks in these engines, and the oil has to be changed so often that you don't get any better longevity out of the synthetic oil anyway. Does that apply just to full synthetics? I only use synthetics in my modern cars, but I realize they are a different animal.

 Thanks again to you and everyone else for all the great info 

     Bill

Congrats on your new ride!!  Primo Petrucci Racing  Engines is a Brad Penn distributor in Farmington Hills.  He is a very knowledgeable  aircooled  VW guy and willing to share info with you.  I learn so much every time I have talked with him.

jesse postill posted:

Congrats on your new ride!!  Primo Petrucci Racing  Engines is a Brad Penn distributor in Farmington Hills.  He is a very knowledgeable  aircooled  VW guy and willing to share info with you.  I learn so much every time I have talked with him.

  Thanks for that contact Jesse (and for the congrats too)! Does he work on VW's too? If not, do you know any good air cooled mechanics in the Detroit area?

Primo is an aircooled VW engine and transmission builder.  He is a machinist with in-house flow bench and dyno.  I don't think he does service work on VW's but he could certainly direct you to a good aircooled VW mechanic.

Part sources:

CIP1:  CIP1.com

CB Performance:  cbperformance.com

SoCal Imports:  http://socalautoparts.com

Bug City:  Bugcity.com

Lots of others.....

Gordon Nichols posted:

Part sources:

CIP1:  CIP1.com

CB Performance:  cbperformance.com

SoCal Imports:  http://socalautoparts.com

Bug City:  Bugcity.com

Lots of others.....

  Many thanks for the links Gordon - much appreciated!

Try to avoid temptation to buy EMPI products (usually cheaper but for a reason).  Probably 75% of EMPI parts are junk and require modification (or trashing).  I've always been happy with CB Performance and CSP products. You might want to look into an oil breather setup as an early "Madness" mod.

Attached is a picture of a German CSP ($40) sump plate that allows you to add (safely) an oil temp sensor later.  Steel ones are available for $10 too.

http://www.mamotorworks.com/VW...csp-germany-323252-4

If you add the CB thinline sump the sump plate above won't fit it.

This one will:  http://www.jayceevw.com/store/..._CB_style_sumps.html

You are welcome to visit if you want to see my thinline sump and sump plate.

There is also a source of Brad Penn oil in Novi.

I have switched to Valvoline VR-1 that I get from Amazon.

McKelvey: Ann Arbor is a little far for a visit, but a picture or two would be nice.

Pictures of sump:

Michael McKelvey posted:

Pictures of sump:

 

 So Michael, that slim line pump gives the engine an extra 1.5 qts of oil to work with, which in turn helps the engine run cooler - is that right?

WOLFGANG posted:

Try to avoid temptation to buy EMPI products (usually cheaper but for a reason).  Probably 75% of EMPI parts are junk and require modification (or trashing).  I've always been happy with CB Performance and CSP products. You might want to look into an oil breather setup as an early "Madness" mod.

Attached is a picture of a German CSP ($40) sump plate that allows you to add (safely) an oil temp sensor later.  Steel ones are available for $10 too.

http://www.mamotorworks.com/VW...csp-germany-323252-4

  Wolfgang - do you know what parts are usually Empi on the engines that VS are using? What would a oil breather mod do for the car, and what is involved in doing the mod? Remember I'm a novice air cooled guy, lol.

@slowshoes Some might claim that the sump helps lower the oil temperature but eventually it will probably heat up to the non-sump temperature.  It does help prevent loss of oil pressure during hard acceleration or cornering. 

@slowshoes There are a lot of opinions about breathers. I am using a CB Tower Breather. I just finished modifying it. It comes with (5) 1/4" pipe thread openings. My original set up had a tee in the back with AN 6 hoses going to the air cleaners.

I re-tapped the openings I am using to 1/2" pipe thread and used AN 10 hoses going to the air cleaners. So, instead of everything going out through a single 1/4" opening, now there are two 1/2" openings. I also added an AN 8 hose from the fuel pump block-off to the bottom. I also put a stainless steel pot scrubber inside.

the more crankcase pressure you can remove, the better it is on performance and emgine life and oil leaks

I also added a sand seal behind the crank pulley.

Wow - Very clean engine Mike! I don't see even a drop of oil.

The crank flailing around and "blow by" the piston rings causes internal engine air pressure (with suspended oil drops).  An oil breather system vents the crank case pressure better than the small single vent off the oil filler (from below the alt stand). The larger the engine the more venting is needed. Mike's is vented by the replacement oil filler from the case and air without the oil drops are vented back into the tops of the air cleaners (which creates a little vacuum assist).  Larger engines will vent both valve covers too.

More and more stuff is labeled EMPI now.  Years ago (1960), it was a well know aftermarket brand - Engineered Motor Products Inc.  EMPI has evolved into cheapest produced with no-QA - hence, Exclusively Mediocre Parts Inside.  They make a lot of billet aluminum parts, chromed parts, carbs, exhausts, oil pumps, cams, wheels, ya da, ya da.  EMPI carbs and maybe their oil breather bits are ok.  There are other poor quality parts now made for the old air cooled VWs.  The differences between OEM German then OEM/aftermarket Brazil/Mexico parts to the now inferior TAIWAN/China parts is very noticeable (save for Vintage Speed products). 

Empi makes a tower breather similar to the CB one. I don't think it looks as good and the empi one doesn't have the outlet on the back. I had to use the back outlet for the right air cleaner to clear the hinge arm.

I am getting good at making braided stainless Teflon hoses.

I am getting good at making braided stainless Teflon hoses.  And have scars to show for it?

OK, so here is an off the wall reply, contrary to all posted logic and recommendation.  My car has a 2332 engine, and was delivered with a hose from oil fill to rt side carb top.  Seeing all this rabid advice about breathers, I read and listened.  Even bought a bugpak to hook up.  with valve cover fittings and hoses included.  Spoke to my builder (JPS) and he said, Nah, you don't need all that stinkin' stuff --- it'll be fine just the way it is.  Hmmm . . .  consider the source, I said to myself.  And so time has passed, and basic sloth, plus other more pressing issues have come and gone, and no change to the breathing as delivered.  All the while I have never been wild about the oil residue that collects inside that right side carb air filter.  Just wipe it up now and then, and press on.  Well, before Carlisle this year I had an issue w/ gas in the crankcase, that had me do a full carb pull and rebuild, and while putting all that back together I said enough is enough.  When the crankcase filled with gas and oil, this mixture was easily pushed up the spout, so to say, and down the throat of this unfortunate carb.  Result was a smokescreen the likes of which you would never wish to see.  So I did get to the bottom of the gas in oil problem (at least one leaky float valve, and a build up of pressure in the half-filled gas tank over winter storage), fixed that, and then decided upon reassembly: nope, not gonna do it no more.  So I just routed that hose down through the tin, and out to the atm.  This is the way cars were built and ran for many years, millions of VWs included -- breather pipe just aimed down at the road.  Not strictly in accordance w current emission controls, but I don't have a catalytic converter either.  I check this hose outlet now and then, and it remains pretty dry, and so far is not making any mess down there.  So, I understand all about blow-by, and crankcase pressure, and that too much positive pressure is a bad thing.  I also see that in my case, it does not seem to be much of an issue with the plumbing as is.  And that carb is now very clean and stays that way, like its twin on the other side.  Against all conventional logic, so it would seem. Is simpler better?  Or at least good enough??  Lots of folks here opt for better when good will do.  "Better" is the enemy of "good", I was told once.

Slowshoe or dancing shoe... congrats on your new car.  

Your engine oil needs a lot of zinc which is a needed ingredient in any oil you buy.

I used to run 20w50 in my 2110cc and it ran well.  I really liked the Sept, Oct cooler weather it just seemed to make the engine run so much better.  Maybe it is like aircrafts and winter or fall weather.  Welcome aboard Captain Slowshoe.

@WOLFGANG the biggest scar is from pushing a fitting on the end with a screwdriver. It slipped and penetrated my thumb behind the knuckle.

IaM-Ray posted:

Slowshoe or dancing shoe... congrats on your new car.  

Your engine oil needs a lot of zinc which is a needed ingredient in any oil you buy.

I used to run 20w50 in my 2110cc and it ran well.  I really liked the Sept, Oct cooler weather it just seemed to make the engine run so much better.  Maybe it is like aircrafts and winter or fall weather.  Welcome aboard Captain Slowshoe.

 Hey thanks Ray - I am happy to be part of the "madness", as you guys call it. I won't be able to add much to the technical side of things - you guys have way more know how than I'll ever have, so I hope you don't mind showing a greenhorn the ropes every now and again.

 It looks like it may actually stop raining here tomorrow, so I'm going to get some pics then. (oh no, another newbie with their pics)!  

not to worry, we L-O-V-E pictures, can't get enough.  RAVE ON!!