Engine oil recommendations

Brad Penn 20W-50, because Jake Raby did a scientific comparison and said this was the best.

VW used and recommended single weight oil because multi-viscosity oil was more expensive when first introduced. As the single weight did an adequate job, oil changes were done fairly often (there was no filter) and this was an economy car, in their eyes there was no reason to use something more expensive. We now modify and use these engines in ways the elves at Wolfsburg never dreamed of (think 2,000-2400cc street engines that rev to 6500-7,000rpm with power and live over 50,000 miles), and multi-viscosity oil is so much better at doing the job of lubricating and protecting an engine that I don't see why anyone would even consider a single weight oil. There are break-in oils for new engines made in single weights, but they have a specific purpose and are meant to be dumped after only a very short time.

 

Oil weight is a subject with a huge difference in opinions- It used to be that people thought that a heavier oil did a better job of protecting an engine, but this isn't necessarily so. Oil pressure is good, but more isn't always better; your engine also needs oil to flow through the bearings to lubricate (especially when first started up and it's cold) and remove heat. People are finding that (in aircooled VW engines) what works best is when the engine has approx. 10lbs. oil pressure per 1,000rpm; at idle it will have 8-10lbs, 2,000rpm about 20lbs, 3,000rpm somewhere around 30lbs, etc. This serves 2 functions, the first of which the oil is light enough that it starts lubricating (especially the rod bearings) much sooner. Gene Berg claimed that when they started using a lighter oil in their drag race car (close to 10,000rpm in first and 2nd gear), they went from replacing rod bearings after every weekend to them lasting the whole season.

 

2nd benefit- Engines with heavier oils can develop enough pressure at higher rpms that at highway cruising speeds (3,000rpm and up) it can cause overheating by closing the path to the oil cooler. Remember, this passage way is controlled by a spring/piston that is pressure regulated  (a simple, elegant solution, as temperature regulation would have cost more money, and this was an economy car), and anything above 45-50 lbs. (the official VW figure is 48lbs.) will close off the path to the cooler, as the engine is acting as if it's cold and the oil isn't sufficiently warm enough.

 

A few years ago a friend drove to California with a new engine in his bug (2 liter that revs to almost 6500rpm with power) and found that it was running hot when he got to Los Angeles. He was visiting some VW people in the area and when asked what weight oil he was running (20w-50) they told him to put 10w-30 in it and the problem was solved. Last year he drove that same car (and engine, now with some 60,000 miles) as far south as Panama (iIrc).

 

Brad Penn is popular with the aircooled crowd these days, having enough zinc to satisfy our engines' flat tappet/cam lubrication requirements, as well as Valvoline's VR1 line. If buying Valvoline make sure you get the street oil; the racing oil has no detergents and is meant to be dumped after every racing session. There are others, but those are the 2 I can think of at the moment. Hope this helps. Al

 

  

Right.  Good oil.  I use that weight in summer, and 10W-40 in the cooler temps.

I had been running Rotella oil for diesel engines for years for the added zinc and phosphorus, but switched a couple of years back to Brad Penn "Green" because of the additional Zinc and Phosphorus needed by our engines, and because it's readily available near me.  So far, I'm happy with it.  Just had my engine apart and the inside looks terrific.

 

Apparently along with Yoda, I am NOT a proponent of running 20W-50 weight oil in these engines.  I ran an experiment ten years ago between 20W-50 and 10W-40 oil in the same engine, same day (same hour, really), same conditions and the 10W-40 ran at least five to ten degrees cooler (on a dipstick thermometer) because the pressure bypass switch wasn't diverting oil from the cooler.  I seem to be a minority in that thinking, though.

 

All that said, if you're running a newly assembled engine for the first time, I usually run a straight-grade 30 wt. "break-in" oil like Kendall or Valvoline for the first hour or so, at lower to moderate speeds (always varying the speed) and no fast starts.  Drain after the first hour, replace with the same brand and weight (30 wt straight) for the first 300 miles of moderate driving, drain and replace with the same 30 wt.  At 1,000 miles, drain and replace with Brad Penn Green 10W-40 and change at 3,000 mile intervals.

 

Somewhere on here, in the dim, dark past, is a set of break-in instructions for these engines.  I think it's also available on Chirco's site and maybe a few other sites like Pelican and the Samba.  Do some research.

When you think of it, there's no reason to change the oil weight depending on the season. Below whatever temperature it is (160? 180'? Way above what the outside temps will ever get to) the oil is the lower weight and the ambient temps don't really have much of an effect on the operating temps of the engine. The new school of thought is to run whatever weight gives the engine the 10lbs. per 1,000rpm pressure, whether it's 40 or 90'F.

 

Gordon's little experiment illustrates exactly what I was talking about. He mentioned Rotella, which was also a favored oil by the aircooled crowd. For those that don't know, with the new emission controls for diesels (I believe some even have catalytic converters now) Rotella is no longer the same high ZDDP, flat tappet friendly oil it used to be. Joe Gibbs has a higher zinc oil, and I believe they make Raby's Snake Oil (to Jake's specs). There are others that work for us as well.  Yoda out.

 

Edit- If your engine does the 10lbs./1,000rpm thing with 20w-50, then it's the right oil for you. If it has significantly higher pressures than that (and we're talking about when it's at operating temps here) and hot oil temps are an issue, then you know what to do. "Listen to what the engine is telling you; it doesn't lie".

That quote comes from the late Bob Hoover...

I have been using Valvoline V-twin 4-stroke motorcycle oil for the last few years. Basically Harleys have the same requirements as we do. It has the extra stuff we need and is available in 10-40 and 20-50. Also available at any Autozone or the like. Very happy with it. Castrol also makes a similar one. 

I also run 10W-30.

My engine is new, so for the first few thousand miles I plan on using Valvoline VR1 (dino) and then I may switch to Brad Penn (synthetic).  Then-again, I may stay with VR1, since it's easier to get and cheaper the BP. 

Technically, it doesn't close off the oil cooler passage, it opens a bypass passage but the effect is the same.

 

Because of that pressure regulation on the cooler bypass, heavier oil will always run at a higher temperature. It certainly can lead to overheated oil as you said, but not necessarily so. For example, if heavier oil caused the oil temps to go from 190* to 210*, it wouldn't be a problem.

Danny P., who's almost on 'The Road to Carlisle' (actually, one of the very last "Road Pictures" starring Bob Hope and Bing Crosby) wrote:  

 

"I have been using Valvoline V-twin 4-stroke motorcycle oil for the last few years. Basically Harleys have the same requirements as we do."

 

Well, Ducati's have that same affliction, but for those bikes you have to use "Oily de Valvolino por MotoBicycletas".

 

Same result, just a bit more Olive Oil in the mix.  

Bit of a throw- back but John Muir says to use straight 30W.  Why would that be other than inexpensive?

Frank- VW recommended single weight as well, but that doesn't mean we can't take advantage of advances in technology. John Muir was old school, and wrote that book when there was a significant price difference between single and multi-weights. Remember, the whole idea of the VW was that they were cheap to run. Single weight did an adequate job, but multi-weight does it better; which would you rather have in your engine?

 

And Justin's point about the way the cooler bypass works is correct; I worded it so the concept was easier to grasp.

Al's right, and, in addition, straight 30W oil from the 1970's bears little resemblance to today's straight 30W oil.  All the stuff that Muir counted on has been removed, due to environmental concerns.  That's why most performance engines need oil that has additives.  If you want to learn lots about oil, there's way more info than most of us can handle at bobistheoilguy.com.    

ALB AND Jim,

Got it.  So I'm seeing 20-50s and 10-40s and synthetics etc.  Which is the best all around for summer in New England oil.  And I assume these multi-weights are not synthetics?

What you need is something (Brad Penn, Valvoline VR1, Joe Gibbs, Harley Davidson, and especially the Oily du Valvolino por Ducati's if you can find it) that still has ZDDP (zinc and phosphorus) to the tune of about 1200ppm(?); Any oil that is SM or SN rated DOES NOT HAVE ENOUGH ZINC AND PHOSPHORUS TO BE EFFECTIVE IN PROTECTING THE FACES OF FLAT TAPPET CAMS AND LIFTERS. You can use the same weight year-round, as long as it produces oil pressure to the tune of about 10lbs./1,000rpm (when warmed up). None of the oils mentioned (I believe)are true synthetics; they are, however, refined using the latest technology. There are some great synthetics, but they are somewhat priceier. 

 

And Jim- I haven't been to Bobistheoilguy.com for a while; it gives me a headache too...

Got it ALB.  No need to shout about the tappets etc.  Just kidding.  I was looking for a local distributor of Brad Penn locally and noticed that there were race oils, high performance oils, synthetics, partial synthetics etc. Just wanted to be clear on what other folks were having luck with.  I'll try something soon and see about the oil temps. and pressure readings you mentioned earlier.  

Thanks for all of the input and I hope the original poster got a good eyeful.

When you talk to them, make sure you tell them what it's for and what you want- a detergent oil high in zinc and phosphorus. I don't know if all their oils are green, but the one you want is. Do you know what oil is in there now?

Frank:

 

I've probably asked this before, but where are you located? 

 

Radio Oil in Worcester carries Brad Penn "Green" oil with all of the good stuff for about $69 per case. Yah can't beat it.  They're just off of Shrewsbury Street.  Nice bunch to deal with.

 

I got a couple of cases of 10W-40 from them - that's all I run year round in my 2,110.

Any comments from the forum about Castrol Edge Syntec 10W-30 to be used in a 1600CC in SoCal having 1500 miles on the new engine? I'm not sure of the zinc and phosphorus contents wrt to Brad Penn Syn which I can not find in a local auto shop in Anaheim area.

Thanks Gordon.  I'm in Newburyport up on the coast.  Supposedly there is a place in Ipswich that carries Brad Penn as well.  Have not had a chance to call them as of yet.  Amazon also has it too but kInda heavy for shipping for about $60 - $65. 
Note:  just got out of my car from a ride.  Master cylinder installation went well... Bled the old fashioned way manually with a buddy.  I'd still like to get ahold of you when I'm out near Worcster and see your car.  Looks way cool from the pictures I have seen here and there.
Frank

It's SM/SN rated, so it's not suitable if you want your engine to last. Zinc/phosphorus content is around 800-900ppm and Brad Penn is up around 1200 (iIrc). You could use a zinc/phosphorus (ZDDP) additive, but don't go overboard; I believe if you dose too heavily the detergent will react to the extra material. 

Royal Purple (sold at Harley Davidson dealers) should work.  They'll try to sell you on 20W-50, but I would stick with 10W-40 for your engine.

 

Al:  I once remember KN Engineering writing that Mobil 1 full Synthetic had adequate zinc and phosphorous for our engines, but I can't find the chart (looks like it was taken down - shoulda printed it, but things might have changed by now, anyway).  Have you any info on it?

 

Given how the EPA is tying to get the oil companies to reduce nasty emissions by degrading the oil we use, Mobile 1 is probably no longer useable, too.

Yeah, Gordon, I remember that as well, but it's best to get confirmation from either their website or a company tech, as the formulations change almost daily it seems. I remember Royal Purple being suitable as well (as well as being a great choice); as are a lot of the true synthetics, they're just more expensive. Apparently dynamite stuff, though; iIrc, the guys who use it really like it.

 

I used to have a link to a thread on one of the Corvette boards that listed all the flat tappet friendly oils (and it was regularly updated any time an oil changed, as their older cars are in the same boat) but it was taken down some time ago.

Some good reading on the Cal Look Lounge about oil-

http://cal-look.no/lounge/inde...p/topic,22200.0.html

The post near the bottom of the first page by the oil chemist explained things very well.

Bluespeedster,

I get my Brad Penn at Roy Miller Freight, 3165 Coronado, in Anaheim. 714-632-5511.

Last case I got there was about a year ago was only 60 bucks otd.

Found a small lubricant distributor in Mass. that sells Brad Penn.  Two guys that worked there had two different views on what to use.  One guy said 20-50 and another 10-30.  I asked both why and they had their reasons :  10-30 would be fine, no that's too thin you need 20-50 etc. I went with suggestions found here with respect to the heavier oils making the car run hot when the revs are up.  This was a cool place as the owner had started to carry Brad Penn only for his vintage car buddies and folks found out he had it.  I saw about 5 Austin Healys, 12 cyl. E-type Jag etc.  I liked these guys...

Frank- the whole you have to use heavier oil to protect the engine viewpoint is old school. The mechanic that works on our 2 daily driver cars (94 4Runner, '97 Caravan) is that way as well. I do the oil changes for these cars, but when we had the Caravan worked on before our summer trip 2 years ago I asked him to do an oil change, and he looked at me as if I was committing a mortal sin by asking him to put 5w-30 in it in June. When you think about it, the ambient temperature has almost no effect on the engine's operating temps or parameters. When starting a car up at either 32' or 95' Farenheit, even 0w-30 is too thick to flow properly; it just starts lubricating and flowing through the bearings just that much sooner than a thicker oil. And when a whatever-30 gives correct oil pressure (in our street engines- 10lbs./1,000rpm) when the engine is warmed up, you know anything thicker is not right.

 

Think of the temperatures the engine sees and operates under- whether it's freezing or stinking hot out doesn't really affect it.

Radio oil in Worcester has Brad Penn, too.  They just sell oil, and expect YOU to know what viscosity and additives you need for your engine.

 

The oil by-pass switch on a VW works on oil pressure, NOT oil temperature.  If you put extraordinarily thick oil in there, the pressure switch thinks that the engine is cool, even when it's hot.  When it's cool (and the oil is supposed to be thinner), it doesn't need to run the oil through the oil cooler.  When the engine is warm but running very thick oil with relatively high oil pressure, the pressure switch protects the fragile, Stock VW oil cooler by by-passing pressure around the cooler directly to the oil sump ( crankcase).   Oil pressure is maintained, the oil cooler is maintained, but in a full flow system, the oil is not cleaned.

 

Even though many of us have vastly modified our engines to produce well over 150% more power than the original versions, the oil requirements haven't really changed that much, mostly because the crankshafts and bearings are identical to stock versions.  Most buyers (and some of the engine builders) don't fully understand how the oil/cooling system works on these engines (maybe with the exception of Jake Raby).  Those who do understand why thicker oil is not a good thing, don't recommend it.

 

OK, so what's all that mean?  It means that 10W-40 is perfectly good for every T-1 engine in a Speedster, even in 100 degree heat!  Yes, your oil pressure will degrade about 15% on really hot days, but so will you!  But your engine will survive (And so will you).

 

if you're anal about it, run 10W-30 in the winter, but honestly, do you really expect to drive your car between Christmas and mother's day???

 

So that's about it.  Go buy some Brad Penn Green 10W-40 and enjoy your car.

 

Gordon - The Speedstah Guy from Grafton

 

Well put, Gordon. The only point I question- "...Oil pressure is maintained, the oil cooler is maintained, but in a full flow system, the oil is not cleaned." Are you saying that because of the pressure diversion around the cooler the oil doesn't go through a full flow filter (if it's mounted) in this situation? I'm of the understanding that a full flow system takes the oil right from the pump (goes out the cover) and then after running through the filter is returned to the oil galley before the oil pressure sender, where the engine sends it wherever, depending on the pressure. With this set-up the oil is always filtered as long as the engine is running.

 

For anyone having trouble grasping this "thinner oil is better" concept, read Gordon's post immediately above again. Remember, when your engine gets really hot and pressure drops slightly- it's trying to tell you something and it's time to take it a little easier until temps come down a little. I know these little engines are tough, but let's not ask the world here. If you have a dual pole (the VDO aftermarket) pressure sender and the oil light comes on at idle, don't freak out; it's set to come on at about 8lbs, whereas the factory sender doesn't turn the dash light on until it drops to 2-3lbs, so it's not the end of the world.

Good info Gordon, but how does that translate to my climate down here?  I've been running 20w-50 because, um, I forget but someone said that's what I should run.  As you remember, some of the best Speedster weather here is during the time between Christmas and Mother's Day, but the summers are just damn hot.

At operating temps (engine all warmed up) what's oil pressure at idle? 2,000rpm? 3,000rpm? 4,000rpm? What I'm getting at- does it run at about 10psi/1,000rpm?

No oil pressure gauge, so I have no data points.  The car NEVER runs hot.

I don't know what to tell you Lane; you could try a lighter weight oil (10-30 or 10-40) and see how it reacts, or keep doing what you're doing now. Do you have a temp gauge? Does the dipstick ever get almost too hot to touch?

Yoda wrote:  

"Well put, Gordon. The only point I question- "...Oil pressure is maintained, the oil cooler is maintained, but in a full flow system, the oil is not cleaned." 

That would be a typing "oops!"  I meant to say "...Oil pressure is maintained, the oil cooler is maintained, but the oil is not cooled." (because the internal oil cooler is by-passed).  In the midst of the sentence I was also thinking about the repercussions of having a full flow system and my fingers were mimicking my thoughts.  Sorry for the confusion.

 

On a full flow oiling system, (if it's set up right) most of the oil (if not all) flows from the oil pump first directly to the external hoses, to the external filter, on to the external cooler and back to the engine where it then is routed to the internal cooler or to the sump, depending on the attitude of the pressure switch(s).  That switch maintains oil pressure below a maximum amount to prevent blow-out of the internal cooler.  If the pressure is too high on a hot day because the oil is too thick, then the switch diverts oil (and pressure) to the sump, thereby protecting the internal cooler and making the engine run hotter.  

 

HOWEVER!  The external stuff (filter/cooler) still gets full pressure all the time since they are before (upstream of) the pressure switch.  The only exception to this is if you have a pressure limiter in the output line of the oil pump to divert excess pressure to the sump to protect your external filter and external cooler - When cold with thicker oil (40wt or higher) these pumps can develop over 300 psi pressure - enough to blow both the filter and external cooler.  So, yes, the external filter and cooler with full flow will always be working.

 

To Lane's point, it all depends on a lot of things like what and how your cooling is set up, how efficient it is, what oil you're using.   I remember reading on Charles Nelson's website that some oils (Synthetics?) dissipate heat much better than others, but I would have to go back and research it.  And of course, you have to account for the viscosity of the oil at various temps - far more important with the T-1 engine because it relies much more on oil pressure.  

 

If ambient temps are under 75F or so and you want to run 50wt oil, what the heck - you're engine isn't much bigger than stock and you don't (as a rule) hammer it much.  I would check the oil temp with a dipstick thermometer on a hot day after coming off of I-526 (15 minute run) and keeping up with traffic.  Stop as soon as you get off the exit ramp and check it, then note where your dash temp gauge is as a reference for later trips. (I used a red sharpie on Pearl ).  That way, at least you'll know.  And if the temp after a hard run is inching up towards 220F, then try running 10W-40 and I'm willing to bet it'll drop 5-10 degrees.  On these engines, that's a big deal.

So that diatribe brings up another question, related to Lane's query:  If you're running a full, stock (VW) cooling system (proper fan shroud, tins, thermostat, air vanes, internal oil cooler and all that Jazz), PLUS you have a full flow external system with an integrated external oil cooler, What would be the repercussions of running heavier weight oil?

 

Well, the entire system would probably run cooler (regardless of oil viscosity), as the external cooler would be doing all the work, even if the oil temp and pressure began to inch up.  Remember that this is a pressure dependent system, so the oil pressure could still inch up, thereby kicking in the switch and saving the internal cooler by dumping oil to the sump, but the external cooler might be able to take up the slack and keep you going.  THAT is when Al's advice about "what is your oil pressure doing?" becomes key, because if your pressure becomes too high (over 60 psi, for instance on a highway) then you're overloading the capability of the pressure regulator internal to the engine and also probably by-passing the oil cooler.

 

That's all I've got for now.....

Tom Williams- thank you for the Roy Miller Freight contact for Brad Penn oil. I'll check them out. Sorry for my late reply to your posting.

 

VR1 Racing oil (non synthetic) is what I use:

http://www.valvoline.com/produ...l/racing-motor-oil/6

So, I just went down to my garage to check the labels on my VR1 oil-I bought 10 liters when it was on sale at Walmart.

To my surprise they're all 20W-50.

I was 99.9% sure I'd bought 10W-30.  How the hell I ended up with 20W-50 is beyond me.  Must be old age rearing its ugly head.

Unless my mechanic tells me otherwise I guess I'll be running 20W-50 in my new engine for a couple of years.

Ron- sorry to hear about buying the wrong weight. Was the choice none syn vs syn due to the higher Zn/P numbers or that slit casings tend not to seal well with syn. Thanx for the link and very interesting reading. They have more details than the Royal Purple site.