Engine oil recommendations

After doing some research it looks like 20W-50 is not a good idea for a new engine.

 

The only reason I'll be running dino instead of synthetic is my mechanic wants me to break in the rings with dino.  Seems there could be some break in problems if synthetic is used.

Once my engine is broken in I may switch over to Brad Penn.

I just looked at Valvoline's site (thanks Ron for the link) and both the VR1 Racing Oil and Valvoline Racing Synthetic (VR1) Oil are street oils with detergent packs for normal oil change intervals. The VR1 Racing Oil product info pdf lists the zinc/phosphorus content at .14/13 which I believe is sufficient for our (or any other flat tappet) engines. The Racing Synthetic (VR1) Oil product info pdf lists the zinc/phosphorus figures for the 5w-30 and 10w-30 at .11/.10 which I don't know if that's a safe level of zddp for our use.  

 

"Valvoline has a complete line of conventional and full synthetic not-street-legal racing oils for competition only."

 

I found this statement in the frequently asked questions section, and these were what I was referring to as not suitable for a street car earlier.

 

And Ron; that's happened to me as well (more than once! my wife doesn't know how I manage it).

 

Anyway...bedtime for Yoda it is. Goodnight everybody.

Is there any reason a 20W-50 can't be "diluted" with a thinner 10W-30 at a 50/50 ratio... formulating something like a 15W-40?

I've got some expensive Joe Gibbs DT50 (synthetic 15W-50) that I'm thinking of mixing with a high zinc synthetic 10W30

 

I brew my morning coffee half caffeinated and half decaf and it seems to keep my nerves in an acceptable agitated range. 

You can do it, Carl. You'll have to pre-mix and carry top-up quarts with you though.... How the heck are you?

I thought so Al,

Thanks for the confirmation...It just seemed to make sense.

 

I've noticed with the oil changed to the Gibbs DT50 (15W-50) that the oil pressure reads higher (about 30lbs at 1000rpm idle) and it's sustained operating temperature flutters around 260 in town traffic driving.

 

As for 'how I'm doing?'...a PM is headed your way!

 

 

Yeah, Carl, that's too high- pressure and temperature. What's pressure at 3,000 or 3500rpm when it's warm?

I do this all the time. There's nothing wrong with it... especially if you stick with the same brand.

So, if you had 0W-20 and you mixed it equally with 20W-50 would you end up with 10W-35?

Ron,

 

I'm sure a tribologist or lubrication engineer would shudder to think you could use old-fashioned arithmetic to figure out an average viscosity.  I'm also sure that, since none of us have race engines that are torn down on a daily basis, your method of computation works great.

 

Remember the old days when you just asked the station attendant to put in a quart of 30W detergent? 

I thought that I couldn't possibly be more confused about which oil I would use in my new engine...I was wrong...

Then there's me-I know what oil I want to use, but then buy the wrong weight.

I'm going to change my avatar to a photo of Forest Gump.

 

 

Brad Penn Grade 1 10w-30, Valvoline VR1 10w-30. Whatever's easiest to find.

Just to add to the confusion.

 

Brad Penn.

 

I contacted Brad Penn in Pennsylvania and they linked me a very informative info site.

 

I used the run in oil for the first two changes and then the green oil after.

 

This is in my aluminium 468ci Shelby engine. The engine arrived dry and had Brad Penn as one option.

 

There has been no problems and has a cool hot run spec.

 

In the spirit of causing a sh!t storm...how about Amsoil?

 

Ron, you beat me to it.  I think I get a box of chocolates and sit in the shade. My head hurts.

I have never heard anything but good news about Amsoil.  

 

Just tell the dealer that you want the highest zinc and phosphorus counts he has in the viscosity you want and get that.

What's the difference between 10w30 and 10w40?

Which one should run at the lowest oil pressure? 

 

My current 15w50 is simply too high at 30lbs / 1000rpm idle

And what about this oil developed in Weissach specifically for 356? Would our Type 1's know the difference ?

 

http://www.porsche.com/usa/acc...sic-motoroel-20w-50/

Doug,

After a careful, objective, read of that promotional copy you'll notice that it's all generalized hype and hoopla...and mentions nothing about specific additives, formulation, performance statistics, etc...

 

In other words it's the kind of dazzling verbal nonsense successful marketing people churn out when there's nothing unique about their product... but they're aiming for a high retail price tag by 'positioning' it as indispensable.  

 

 

Try one or the other, and see how close your oil pressure (when warm) is to the 10lbs/1,000rpm rule. Report back what you find out.

 

PS- What's the pressure at 3500 (again, when warm)?

 

Is 30lbs at 1,000rpm when the engine's warmed up?

If it develops significantly more than 10lbs/1,000rpm when warm it's not right. If you try it, please report back with what you find. I'm betting that as well as being overpriced (it is a genuine Porsche product), it's too thick...Al

I'll do that Al,

But I have a choice of Spectro 2X 10w30 or 10w40...I'd like to go for the best chance of lower pressure by selecting the best possible weight right off the bat...so would it be 30 or 40?

 

I've only put about 15 miles on the car since the Gibbs 15w50 oil change (Mahle OC264 filter)...I'm getting nearly 90lbs at initial start up, and then slowly falls to 60lbs until cylinder head temperature reaches 175/200...then it settles down to 30lbs 1,000rpm idle at 250 temp.

 

I haven't had it at a sustained 3 to 35 hundred rpm to take a reading, but in traffic up to 25/28 hundred rpm it's reading 40+ lbs pressure. The CHT stays at about 250+ in traffic. 

I keep hearing this, but I have a hard time buying. I'm not feeling the love at 10 psi oil pressure at idle.

 

The stock oil system is a sad little joke, what with the funky valves, etc. The bypass set-up is primarily to keep from blowing oil cooler seals every cold start, as well as allowing the oil to warm up. Everybody's got a story of some dude blowing apart an oil filter reving up a cold full-flowed engine with 20W50 in it.

 

Still, I'd much rather just run a big external oil cooler (I've got a 96 plate EMPI, but a Setrab would be better yet), a good (Mocal) oil thermostat, and some sort of pressure relief (I've got a Jaycee base, but the oil pump covers probably work just fine as well), and make some actual oil pressure. I'm not talking about 100 psi driving down the road, but 15 psi at idle when hot is about the minimum I like to see. Once you factor in that most VW shops build on pretty wide bearing tolerances, and I'm a fan of thicker oil than the 10W30 lots of folks advocate for.

 

I'm not saying you're wrong, Al. I'm just saying there's another side of the coin.

Carl, both oils start out the same cold at 10w. It's when it  heats up that the oil changes. 30w is probably best during the cooler seasons but you'll probably want 40w during the summer.

I think a perfect oil for the summer would be 5-50 if you could find such a thing. Or a 5-40, at least. 

 

If you really want to impress your PCA buddies, there are still places available on the wait list for the limited edition 'Classic Oil Carafe' by Porsche Design.

 

 

 

 

This 12 quart supply of Porsche Classic Motor Oil comes in a stainless steel storage tank with a stylish leather handle and heavy brass delivery spout. Not shown in the photo is a closable vent on top which allows the oil to breathe for an hour before decanting into your engine.

 

Only 356 will be offered at a price of... well, if you have to ask.

 

 

 

Could the oil filter be a factor in generating high oil pressure readings?

 

I replaced a MANN 719/30 with a WIX/NAPA 5151R...(not a MAHLE OC 264 as I previously posted)

Well Al, I'm sort of at my wit's end on this oil question. It's at the point that it's beyond perplexing...it's laughable!

Last evening I surfed through Google and Youtube 'authorities' and there's simply no concensus...I'm taking a deep breath this morning, dig out my soiled 'mess around' clothes and change my oil over to 10w40 and be done with it.

BTW, oil gurus on the internet give Amsoil a thumbs up!

The stock oil system is adequate for the conditions the engine was originally intended to run under, and millions of these things reaching 100,000 miles (and beyond) before needing rebuilding is a testament to this. Could it have been made better? Of course, but you have to remember this was a car that was supposed to be affordable to the masses and cheap to run. Any more machining, design work or parts would have added cost and it worked as presented.

 

Any time the powerband is moved up/extended (even the addition of dual single barrel carbs, a 1 3/8" header and 1.4 rockers will give a 500rpm higher peak) I believe the modifications made popular by the late Bob Hoover  (drilling the right side of the case, grooving the lifters, and grooving the rockers and shafts) should be essential. They provide full time oiling to the lifter bores and heads, and the added volume of oil going to the heads will allow the springs to run cooler, reduce or eliminate rocker shaft/bushing wear and remove more heat from the heads. Even a stock cammed and carbed engine will benefit from the modifications (remember, earlier I called the stock oiling system not great, but adequate).

 

The 10lbs/1,000rpm thing- Since the apparatus (relief valve and spring) that decides when the cooler does and doesn't get a pressure fed supply of oil is not temperature but pressure based (VW's spec is 48lbs), if the engine makes more than 48lbs oil pressure at highway cruising speeds (3,000-4,000rpm) the engine will overheat, as the relief valve is bleeding oil from that passage back to the sump and the cooler passage is no longer seeing full pressure (a while ago Justin reminded me of this in another thread, as I had incorrectly described it as closing off the cooler passage so it no longer gets the flow through it at lower pressures). Couple this with the factory oil pressure sender not turning the dash light on until oil pressure drops below 2-3lbs (the VDO aftermarket dual pole unit is set to turn the light on at 7-8lbs) and the 10lbs/1,000rpm guideline seems to fit right into what VW intended. There are lots of guys running around on the street with VW engines that make power to 6500 and 7,000rpm (and beyond!) that are set up this way and are successful.

 

Oil pressure is important, yes, but so if flow, especially at start up. The oil needs to be thin enough to flow through bearing/crank and rod journal passages and remove heat as soon as the engine is started. Gene Berg wrote of experimenting with heavier oil in their drag race engine and found that instead of the rod bearings lasting all season (as they had with the lighter oil) they had to be replaced after 1 weekend. Mains were ok, but the rod bearings were scarred.

 

You've somewhat re-engineered the system to work with higher oil pressures, Stan, and I respect that. What I've written here is only intended to describe my experience and what I've seen other people do.

 

PS- I'm not trying to create a sh1t storm here, I'm just curious; what do you base your "I'm not feeling the love at 10 psi oil pressure at idle" attitude on?

 

 

1st- I've never heard of an oil filter generating higher oil pressures than normal; that's not how they work.

 

2nd- After the oil change please post how the engine is reacting; if you could, pressure (when warm) at idle, 2,000 and 3500rpm. I'll anxiously be waiting for the results later today. And I haven't mentioned Amsoil because I haven't had the time to check it out lately. If they still have a high zddp version it will be a great choice. TTYL. Al 

 

PS- Guys, there are a few different oils that will work for our little putt-putts; find one that's suitable (proper zddp counts) and available where you are and you're set to go. And Carl, you're making this way to complicated!!

Remember, anything that's SM/SN rated is not acceptable. It's as simple as that.

Amsoil will work, but where I live it's expensive.

 

 

Here's another recommended inexpensive oil.

 

 

 

 

I agree 100%. There are engineering elements of the Type 1 flat 4 that are really elegant, and those that are "less so". The oiling system falls solidly into the "less so" category, in my unsolicited opinion. No filter, puny little sump, no oil to the 1-2 top end, undersized cooler with fragile little seals, etc.-- it's complicated and less than elegant. It's a definite weak point.

 

Sooner or later, everybody who modifies their engine ends up modifying the oiling system to one degree or another (full-flowing counts). The "Hoover mods" are fantastic, and I've got them all-- but almost nobody does the Hoover mods, unless they are getting a new engine and know enough to pay for them. That's probably less than 1% for the entire hobby.

 

However, lots of guys end up adding an external oil cooler, if they have engines engines bigger than 1776 and live in places where it gets hot. They cost practically nothing. Once you've added an oil cooler, the 10 psi/1000 rpm rule becomes something one doesn't have to strictly adhere to (assuming one doesn't want to), as you're going to get flow through that baby once the external thermostat opens, no matter what the pressure is. 

 

 

Yeah, I've totally reengineered the oil system with an Accusump for pre-oiling, dry sump, 911 oil squirters, and a 96 plate oil cooler and bypass thermostat... along with pressure relief in the filter base, but nobody has to go to this extreme to run more oil pressure, and stay reasonably cool doing it. There are pumping losses associated with higher oil pressures, but I think (for me, anyhow) that they are more than offset by the increased longevity of having a good oil film on the bearings at all operating conditions.

 

 

I'm not advocating for 90 psi, or anything stupid. But ideally, I'd have 20 psi oil pressure at idle, and 40- 60 psi driving down the road... and no more than 60 psi or so ever. That's the way 99% of the engines designed in the last 50 years operate, and it's the way wear-points don't wear as much.

 

I've got no dog in this fight, as I'm 100% committed to working around the stock oiling system in any Type 1 I own. The only reason I posted at all was to say, there's more than one way to look at this. To sum up my perspective: if a guy has an external oil cooler (with a bypass thermostat and fan), running a bit more oil pressure with more readily available (in high-zinc formulas) heavier oil is not the end of the world. I say: oil temperatures that are too high will kill your engine, but so will starvation. You gotta' have both, and a lot of times the stock system provides neither.

OK Al, Stan, and curious onlookers...here's the latest:

 

First of all after reading through these posts again I realized that I 'miskeyed' my initial start up oil pressure reading...It' 60 psi...NOT 90!

 

Changed oil this morning from Gibbs D50 (15w50) to Swepco2X 10w40, took it for a spirited run on back country road and recorded these three readings:

 

          Ist                  2nd            3rd

        CHT...........250F        260         260

        Idle rpm's   1000       1000          1000

        Oil psi          30+       22/24          22+

        Oil temp       150F       170          170

 

Sustain 3000rpm's...............40psi

Acceleration through gears....50/60psi (3500 to 4000rpm)

 

(2110cc with flow through & two fanned oil coolers tucked up inside rear fenders)

 

So, what's the verdict?

Do I need to start thinking of preparing an obituary for this little Type1

Please be candid and PM me directly, if you wish, with your opinions to avoid controversial retorts. 

 

  

I'm not an expert, Carl, but I see nothing amiss there.  Why do you think your engine is toast?

Head and oil temps are both low.

Normal CHT range is 325 to 375 F

Normal oil temperature range is 180 to 220 F

 

What was the weather/temperature and what brand of gauges are you using?

I see a lot better numbers here than with the heavier oil, Carl. The only thing I'd watch is the oil pressure when highway cruising at 3500 (or more) rpm, but then with 2  coolers in the rear fenders you've got that covered as well. What brand cylinder head temp gauge is in the car? Is the sender under a spark plug or somewhere else?

Because I'm paranoid, Lane...

 

And I'm not absorbing the 'mechanical where-with-all' to even begin to diagnose problems and 'fix'um' requirements...or to anticipate trouble. But I suspect potential trouble with every squeak, whirr, or burp! That's what paranoia is all about...insecurity. 

 

Most of the technical jargon and references on this forum is but vaguely understood. That's why many evenings are spent surfing Google and Youtube so my questions don't seem stupid! That's what embarrassing ignorance is all about. 

RonO & Al,

 

Today's weather was clear in the mid 70's

 

The psi and CHT are 2" dia. black faced gauges marked "VDO"

The psi reads from 0 to 80

The CHT (hooked up with#3 spark plug) reads from 100 to 600

 

I also have a 2"dia. Air/Fuel Ratio gauge, marked "CB",  with such intermitted and erratic readings that I pay no attention to it.

 

The comments are encouraging...

Maybe I won't have to think of preparing an obituary afterall...and perhaps with a sustained longer cruise the oil temp will come up another 10 or 20 degrees, and the CHT temp another 50/60 degrees.

 

I'll say one thing:

It's an exciting kick in the butt when the Webers come off the idle jet in second gear...I'm a kid again!    

 

 

Why are you back so soon?  Go for a drive and have some fun. And drive it like you stole it!!!

Just did Al,...

and it was only the second time in the two n'half years that I had to turn the headlights on!

How long were you out for? How did it run?

I'll second that.  Considering that your VDO gauges are probably off a bit, your temps look fine.