Engine removal with exhaust on

Fpcopo VS posted:

...Fixing the leaks and removing the transaxle will fix the last two things on my car...

Good luck on the tranny rebuild.

I think it's technically impossible to fix the last two things on anyone's Speedster.

The best you can hope for is to fix the next two things.

"I think it's technically impossible to fix the last two things on anyone's Speedster."

Ok, Mitch, I laughed at that!

Pull the muffler, Frank, and see if the engine will pull back far enough. It should. With the 3.11 1st, what are you using for 2nd? With Weddle's 1/2 mainshafts, the longest 2nd is 1.86, and I definitely wouldn't go any shorter; you want to close the distance in the higher gears wherever possible. What's going in for 3rd? With the .82 as 4th and 1.86 2nd I would go for a 1.21; that will make the 2-3 and 3-4 shift distances almost exactly the same as stock. Click on the link below- the first gearset is stock VW and the 2nd is with the 3.11 1st.

http://calc.teammfactory.com/i...26+2&trannytype=

You'll notice that with the new gears, the 3rd and 4th "recovery rpm" for each shift doesn't change that much from stock. 4th is a little longer, but nothing like the 1.31-.82 spread of the "freeway flier" gears popular years ago (plug the #'s in and see what it does). If (again, in the 2nd gearset) you substitute 1.18 for the 1.21 in 3rd it tightens up the 3-4 spread a little tighter than the first example without really changing the 2-3 shift that much, and might even be more fun!

For our purposes a 3.11-1.75 mainshaft (and gears) would be more useful as then you could shorten up the 2-3 and 3-4 spreads a little more (and the 1-2 shift would still be tighter than stock), but the 3.11-1.86 is as wide as they make.

Merry Christmas to you Frank !  Al is giving you some good Info too.

Yes...remove your muffler and of course the two flat fiberglass pieces that isolate the top of your engine from the bottom. I know that your car is the one that was just ahead of me at VS so I'm pretty sure you will have to whack a little off the the bumper mounting bracket on the right side. On mine, my A-1 header on that side hit this bracket just enough that I couldn't get the engine back far enough to start tilting it down and out. So just be watchful of that.......Cheers........Bruce

PS:  I'm still in Loreto Baja enjoying sunny 85 degree weather. Will be back to socal next month to soak up some rain from what I hear.

Thanks for the advice guys. I have already cut both brackets when I put it in without the exhaust because I ripped my arm open on one so that is done. Right now all I know is the trans has a 3.80 first and supposedly a .89 4th with a 3.88 r&p so what I was shooting for was to get as close as I could to the 356 trans which has a 3.06 first.

     Al you told me exactly what I was looking to hear, I just want to tighten things up and get a little more speed at lower rpms in 4th.  Weddles website was hard to search for the gear sets so I will ask Dave if I can get the ratios you are talking about and thanks again guys.  Bruce, I hope the sun isn't too much for you to handle, we got 8" of snow Thursday just in time for Christmas.

That gear ratio site is fun. I popped in my trans (stock gears with a .93 4th and 3.44 r&p) and the results were interesting. 

edsnova posted:

That gear ratio site is fun. I popped in my trans (stock gears with a .93 4th and 3.44 r&p) and the results were interesting. 

Yeah, Ed, it makes it easy to see how changing a ratio will affect things.

Al,

I think I'm going to stick with the 1.31 third. I checked with Weddle today and their 1.22 gear set is $296 not including the $80 to buy a new synchro cone and weld it on.  For almost $380 I'm going to have to live with the stock third.  It is fun playing with that calculator.

edsnova posted:

That gear ratio site is fun. I popped in my trans (stock gears with a .93 4th and 3.44 r&p) and the results were interesting. 

Ed...I didn't know / have forgotten what was in your tranny for gears. Do you have stock gears with the 3.44:1 r&p ? If so, are you finding about 65 mph at about 2,900 or so rpm ?  How does it take off from a stop sign in first  ? Nice, normal, do you have to ride the clutch a bit or what ?

Thanks.

Frank- Have you thought of (instead of spending $1,000 on the 1-2 mainshaft and matching gears) using a 3.44 ring & pinion? Look at the link below- I inserted the 3.44 with the stock gears in the first trans and it compares very closely to trans 2 (the r&p is about $600 cheaper, and the quandry of what to do about 3rd disappears as well, as you haven't changed any of the gear spacing!). Run it by Mr. Folt(s?z?), and see what he thinks.

Btw- Dave F has been rebuilding transaxles for a long time, and I don't recall ever hearing anything bad about him. Have you looked at the Feedback forum on The Samba?

My apologies if you've answered this before, but I don't remember seeing it- is your car swingaxle or irs?

http://calc.teammfactory.com/i...26+2&trannytype=

I use this gear calculator any time I want to compare ratios, as it's so easy to use (once you've found it).

David: the ratios feel very great. 1st is not a bother and could be a little taller, I believe, without causing any hill anxiety or clutch heat. I'm doing about 70 mph at 3000 (the old trans gave me 60). The .89 would be good for 5 mph more at the expense of a little bit of a wider gap between 3rd and 4th.

Looking at my stock ratios with the 3.44 R&P, against Frank's proposed custom ratios with the 3.88, I gotta say: with the max rpm set at 5500, I'm within 3 mph and 200 rpm on every shift. I get 31 mph in 1st, as against 33mph in the Porsche-geared box. 57 mph in 2nd as against 56; 89 in 3rd vs 85 (dropping to 3557 instead of 3610-so a slightly wider 2-3 ratio) and 125 in 4th vs his 126 mph with the .82 4th gear (and 3910 rpm on the upshift vs 3713 for the Porsche-styled box--a closer 3-4 ratio). 

As I have preached many times, the Soob has a very flat torque curve, and so it does not care much what gear you choose. Want to start off in 3rd? Ok. You're the boss.

Frankly--and I hate to say it, but it's true--it's a little bit boring. Part of me misses the adventure of having 1500 ancient, leaky cc's pushing 65 ft-lbs at 3500 rpm with a 50-horse power peak just above 4500 rpm. That took brain power!

All excellent info, Ed. Do you know anyone on the East Coast that might have a 3.44 R&P available ?

Your shifting comments made me laugh. I remember as a teenager a buddy had a Triumph Herald wagon and he was forever shifting. Gutless it was too and we once got shut down at a green light by a half loaded milk truck. Pretty embarrassing it was.

edsnova posted:

...Part of me misses the adventure of having 1500 ancient, leaky cc's pushing 65 ft-lbs at 3500 rpm with a 50-horse power peak just above 4500 rpm. That took brain power!

From the beginning, this is what the Luddite in me has liked about the Speedster.

The air-cooled engine is definitely happiest between 2500 and 3500, and working out how to do most of your driving there requires some paying attention.

Fiddle with the nav system and playlists in your Camry if you will, but you won't have time for that in a Speedster.

I like how this guy puts it around 3:10:

Dave: I don't recall where my trans guy sourced the new R&P but I am pretty sure it was imported from the West coast, at least.

Weddle has it listed for $325

Set up & installation is something I left to my guy. Danny P, however, now knows something about VW transaxle R&R.

Yeah, Ed, is definitely best left to those with the proper tools/equipment and experience. I'm not saying a motivated individual can't do it (afterall, we have Danny, who rebuilt his own transaxle last winter, was it?), but having more experience than changing your oil and plugs a few times and having waded through setting up and tuning your carbs will be, shall we say, "necessary". As for tools/equipment- dial indicators, calipers, micrometers and a press are essential, and then you have to come up with a jig to be able to adjust the shift forks (you can cut down an old case, so that one's not hard to come up with) and a few other specialty pieces (pinion nut socket/wrench, snap ring pliers, and I forget what else). If a guy wants to learn how to do it, great; all I'm saying is that it's a big investment (you'll pay the trans guy substantially less for labor than what you'll invest in tools) to do just your own.

That said, I have all the measuring tools, have taken apart a number of transaxles over the years, and am starting to think it's time to try putting one together. Maybe one day. After the car runs.....

David, I have a new 3.44 ring & pinion that I was going to have installed in my IM.

PM me if you're interested.

wrt the "fun" involved with keeping your revs up, these cars are what I grew up with, and so I have never considered it a chore or difficult.  Running between 3k and 4k is just the way life is.  My daily driver is a 5 sp manual V6 with a pretty beefy and flat torque curve thanks to modern technology, (mostly due to FI and variable valve timing), and I still keep the revs up on it too.  Starting off in 3rd gear?? Might be possible, but never even crossed my mind.

Al,

I ran the 3.44 and you are right it might solve the problem a lot cheaper. I need to check with Dave because I'm trying to make a stronger gearbox and everybody says the German made 3.88 is the cheapest and best gear set for racing as well as street.  This is just like going into a Chinese buffet,  the choices are endless.  Has anyone blown one of these type 1 boxes?  Is it worth it to spend the dough on the rhino case and Weddle gears?  The other thing I thought of is going to an 091 bus trans.  Is this overkill?

Good morning Frank- Is your car swing or irs? I blew up the stock transaxle in my '72 beetle with a 1600 (I was a much younger man, it was raining, and yes, there was beer involved). You can break anything if you try hard enough. Another trans, properly rebuilt with the usual strengthening stuff (welded 3rd and 4th synchro hubs, superdiff, hardened keys, and I forget what else) lasted many years, 12,000 of those miles with a 1750, occasionally bracket and street racing as a 14 second car. Before anyone gets all up in arms about the street racing- again, I was a much younger man.  

The 3.88 is the strongest r&p VW made for the type 1 gearbox (if you ever see a 4.375 and 3.88 side by side you'll see why; the 3.88 pinion head is so much larger) and the 3.44 pinion head is larger again, so it's stronger than anything VW offered. That said, pick the r&p for the gearing, for if the transaxle is built properly it will take a lot of abuse and last a long time.

The Rhino is a great casting, but all that extra webbing on the top doesn't do a lot, and it's heavier than a stock case. When a stock magnesium transaxle case breaks (high shock load drag race starts with enough traction to lift the front wheels off the ground) they usually break through the bottom. There are guys that believe that the Rhino case isn't needed (it's reinforced in the wrong area because it's used in a mid engine set up) and a stock case with a gusset welded across the bottom is strong enough for a wheels up, 11 second car.

I could go on, but unless your going to be constantly beating the sh*t out of it (and regularly attracting the attention of the local law enforcement) I think a properly beefed type 1 transaxle will be up to the job. And if you're really considering a bus box, with the extra money you'll spend (mounts, clearancing the frame horns, custom gears to make the shorter r&p work) you could just about install a Berg 5. Now that would be fun!

I included this pic of a trans case just starting to crack across the bottom- it's out of a local guy's street bug that runs high 11's. 2nd pic is a gusseted case. If you're worried about the stock case being strong enough, this is the solution. The reason I've asked whether your car is swing or irs is there is a later, stronger irs case available  (right side cover is part of the casting, and there's 2 versions, actually, the later having more/offset webbing on top). If I find a pic I'll post it as well. Al 

Fpcopo VS posted:

Al,

I ran the 3.44 and you are right it might solve the problem a lot cheaper. I need to check with Dave because I'm trying to make a stronger gearbox and everybody says the German made 3.88 is the cheapest and best gear set for racing as well as street.  This is just like going into a Chinese buffet,  the choices are endless.  Has anyone blown one of these type 1 boxes?  Is it worth it to spend the dough on the rhino case and Weddle gears?  The other thing I thought of is going to an 091 bus trans.  Is this overkill?

I'll go out on a limb and tell you what I have decided to do. Almost stock gearing, but first gear normally being 3.80 will get swapped out for a stronger 3.78 gear from a later Super Beetle that gets a slight mod. 

A four spider gear (super diff) goes in with an aluminum side cover, steel shift forks, new synchros and a 3.44:1 r&p. 

My logic is that if I can put 30,000 miles on a bone stock tranny with the Ej22engine, this slightly beefed up one might survive the Frankenmotor with careful driving. I'm not recommending that anyone follow my lead on this....it's untested. 

I think the 3.88 is THE race R&P because it allows use of a quaif limited slip diff. The 3.44 is too big.

Word I've read is the beefed-up type1 trans will hold up against 180 horse, but not much more.

looks like the built bus and other strong boxes start around $5k, as against $1100-1500 for the bug trans. So it's a big step. 

Saw a 914 box for $300 on Craigslist yesterday. Who has thoughts about that as a deal?

Guys, just so you know- all type 1 transaxles starting (I believe) late 1972 came with the stronger 3.78 1st gear. It wasn't just a superbeetle thing. 

Ed- You're right; the pinion head of the 3.44 is so large it hits the body of a Quaife. I don't know how much, or if the Quaife housing can be clearanced, and I don't know about a ZF (a question for Bruce the next time we talk). Most guys like the 3.88 r&p because it's relatively easy to find, the toughest VW piece of the bunch and cheap (you can usually find a late model used complete gearbox for 100-$150). For drag racing (what a lot of VW owners are concerned with) the 3.44 is just too long, and therefore too slow out of the hole. Even the 3.88 is a compromise unless the car has a legitimate 200hp. Alan's car (the trans case pics I posted above) has gone 11.8's and uses a 4.125 r&p.  And how long a transaxle holds up against 180 or 200hp (or more) depends on how you drive it. No dump the clutch drag race starts or serious powersliding around corners all the time and a well built trans in a stock case should last a long time.

I went straight to the 3.44 because 3.88 is only 94 percent of 4.125 . Not really much of a gain for the $$$$.  3,500 rpm becomes 3,290 whereas the 3.44 will drop 3,500 to 2,919. 

Weddle has A real nice gear calculator too, but no 3.44's till March at the earliest. 

ALB posted:

the pinion head of the 3.44 is so large it hits the body of a Quaife. I don't know how much, or if the Quaife housing can be clearanced, and I don't know about a ZF

I've got a 3.44 and a ZF LSD. It works.

Al,

I ran the 3.44 and you are right it might solve the problem a lot cheaper. I need to check with Dave because I'm trying to make a stronger gearbox and everybody says the German made 3.88 is the cheapest and best gear set for racing as well as street.  This is just like going into a Chinese buffet,  the choices are endless.  Has anyone blown one of these type 1 boxes?  Is it worth it to spend the dough on the rhino case and Weddle gears?  The other thing I thought of is going to an 091 bus trans.  Is this overkill?

My car has a swing axle.  I can't use the gussets unless I 86 the camber compensator. I'm sure learning a lot from you guys. It looks like if I use 3.78, 2.06, 1.31 and .93 gears with the 3.44 that might be the cheapest and best solution. Maybe even forget about the Rhino case. I'm sure there a lot of you guys who drive your cars a lot harder than I do and if you haven't blown a transaxle I'm sure I can live with the case I have now.  I'm not sure what 1st through 4th gears are in my trans now but it is supposed to be a super street 3.88 freeway flyer.  Once I get it out and get it to the trans shop we will know exactly what I've got. This answered all of my questions, thanks so much.

David I think your on the right track to add a 3:44 cost to benefit ratio.  I have driven that ratio for 5 years and while you won't win the launch at the green light you'll find it a very nice highway cruising gear ratio. It would do 3200rpm around 70mph with my 2110 145hp engine if I remember right and with a subie 2.5L the torque is so nice that at the Rpm your quoting you are plumb into the torque curve and you can cruise all day. 

Ray 

Frank- you can't use the 091 unless you convert to irs. Dave Folts did develop swingaxle parts for the bus transaxles years and years ago, but I've never heard of anyone using it on the street- what's he say about it? I think your gearing with the 3.44 will put you right where you want to be. What size engine is in your car? With a stock magnesium trans case (and the beefing tricks; and don't worry, I'm guessing Dave knows them all) you shouldn't have any trouble, as I said earlier, unless you're trying to lift the front wheels off the ground! 

Let us know what's in the transaxle for gears when you get it apart. And Happy New Year! Al

A little late to this party, sorry. Yes, I rebuilt my trans last year, but I reused the R and P I had, so setting the backlash wasn't necessary. I don't have the required tools to do this, and don't intend to build or buy them. A very important step.

With respect to the 3.44 and LSD, the ZF Stan has will work, but the Quaife will not work without serious machine work. It may not fit even after that. It slips in just fine with a 3.88.

I've said this before: a stock-geared trans with a 3.44 is the cheapest way to get decent gearing, as long as you have the torque to push it, like my motor, or a Subaru.

DannyP posted:

 

I've said this before: a stock-geared trans with a 3.44 is the cheapest way to get decent gearing, as long as you have the torque to push it, like my motor, or a Subaru.

This is the truth. I've spent 915 money on my VW 4-speed getting gear ratios that are mildly better than just doing stock gears and a 3.44.

What I'm trying to get away from with the stock gearing is having to wind the engine past 3000 in each gear to avoid lugging it in the next gear. I know it is a small engine compared to the big V8s I'm used to so revving it probably should not be an issue.      

     However in the back of my mind is the 82mm stroke, almost the same as a 350 Chevy, and I keep thinking of those poor little pistons flying around in there and I get a little concerned about abusing it. So I end up lugging it a little which is maybe worse.  The high dollar 3.11-1.86 setup with a stock 1.31 third and a .82 fourth with the 3.88 should tighten the spread a lot but is also going to ventilate my wallet the most.

Fpcopo VS posted:

...What I'm trying to get away from ... is having to wind the engine past 3000 in each gear to avoid lugging it in the next gear...

Do or do not.

There is no try.

If you're shifting at normal speeds (3,000-4,000rpm) most of the time I don't think you have anything to worry about, Frank. You're going to get reasonable life out of your 82mm stroke engine as long as the engine compartment is getting a reasonable amount of air, the engine itself is a matched combo, is in good tune, and you're not driving the snot out of it all the time. I'm reposting the link to the trans combos I gave you earier as I want you to look at the rpm drop from 3rd to 4th in the first (stock geared) combo- the recovery rpm is approx 2400. Plug .82 in the 4th position and see what it does- it lowers it to just below 2200rpm- this is the widened gap that so many people complain about when using the longer 4th with stock 3rd.

In example 2 (with the 3.11/1.86) I put the 1.22 3rd in keeps the 3rd-4th gear spacing very close to stock while not making the 2/3 distance any wider than stock as well. If I was starting from scratch with a 3.11 in a 4speed I'd be looking for about a 1.75 2nd gear so the 1-2 spacing wasn't so close, but they don't make it.

I know it's more money, but if you're going to go the new mainshaft route, consider a new 3rd gear as well. It will make the car all that much more fun. Al

ARK Survival Evolved Ecalc.teammfactory.com/index.php?kmh=0&tirewidth=185&tireprofile=65&wheelsize=15&tirediameter1=24.47&maxrpm1=3500&finaldrive1=3.88&gearratio1=3.78&gearratio2=2.06&gearratio3=1.31&gearratio4=.89&gearratio5=&gearratio6=0&trannytype=&trannytype=&tirewidth2=185&tireprofile2=65&wheelsize2=15&tirediameter2=24.47&maxrpm2=3500&finaldrive2=3.88&gearratioa=3.11&gearratiob=1.86&gearratioc=1.21&gearratiod=.82&gearratioe=0&gearratiof=0&trannytype=&tranny=Calculate+Transmission+1+%26+2&trannytype=

I'm calling Dave Folts and maybe Rancho tomorrow. I'll have them figure it both ways, stock gears with a 3.44 and Weddle gears with the 3.88. I think I'm better to buy the trans outright and sell mine because the core is only like $200.  Thanks for all the input guys.

Fpcopo VS posted:

What I'm trying to get away from with the stock gearing is having to wind the engine past 3000 in each gear to avoid lugging it in the next gear. I know it is a small engine compared to the big V8s I'm used to so revving it probably should not be an issue.      

     However in the back of my mind is the 82mm stroke, almost the same as a 350 Chevy, and I keep thinking of those poor little pistons flying around in there and I get a little concerned about abusing it. So I end up lugging it a little which is maybe worse.  The high dollar 3.11-1.86 setup with a stock 1.31 third and a .82 fourth with the 3.88 should tighten the spread a lot but is also going to ventilate my wallet the most.

"Wind past 3000"?

What I'm going to say only applies if a guy has done enough to his air-cooled Type 1 engine to overcome the stock engine's tendency to run out of breath at about 5K RPM. If you haven't, then spend the money on your engine before you start on the transaxle.

I've historically called humbug when somebody starts in with the "don't slow the engine down too much or you'll overheat" nonsense-- but because of the statement above, I'm going to do the opposite here. Laying everything else aside, if you feel like pulling past 3K RPM is "winding out", you need to recalibrate.

I really like torque-- REALLY like it. Like you, I come from the 'merican V8 world where torque is only a tap of the pedal away. I thought for a long time that most of the lessons I learned there would transfer over here. Some do, so don't. The thing is: there just isn't enough displacement in these engines to get that kind of off-idle, tire shredding, change-the-axis-of-the-earth's rotation torque you are used to.

I'm doing everything I know how to do to get bottom end torque out of a N/A 2.3L flat 4. I'm on my fourth set of heads, looking for the holy grail of flow and small port size. I'm running exhaust primaries and carbs at least one full size smaller than the drag-racing norm. I'm running 10.5:1 static CR with an FK8, and I'm running 2 spark-plugs per cylinder to get away with that. To get more bottom end grunt, I'd need to turbocharge it or move to a platform with the capability of a larger bore (oxy-boxer, Type 4, etc.). After 82 mm, the stroke you add to the engine just starts robbing you in other places.

My engine is very, very snappy, and is built to maximize that snap. I've got a 3.30 first, 2.07 second, 1.31 third, .93 fourth, 3.44 R/P. I built what I've got so I could cruise 14 hrs/day at 80- 90 mph. It works, but first is a really, really long reach. I had this transaxle in a  3.30 first, 2.07 second, 1.31 third, .89 fourth, with a 3.88 R/P, and it was a lot more fun for everything but chasing horizons.

The point? These engines, no matter how you put them together, like to make power between 4K- 6K RPM. It's their sweet-spot. You WANT to be spinning between 3000 and 3500 RPM wherever you spend a lot of time. Everything gets sweeter as the revs get into this range. Short-shifting is just leaving power and fun on the table.

I wasn't being a total wise-butt with my vote for a five-speed (maybe only three-quarters of a wise-butt).

With any of the gearing discussed here, I don't see how you're going to avoid 'falling into the hole' when shifting around 3000 rpm, especially when climbing a serious grade.

My 2024cc stroker is probably a little weaker than your 2110, but not by much. I went round and round with gearing, plugging all sorts of combinations into that chart and kept coming to the same inescapable truth. If you want a first gear low enough to start out up a steep grade without lugging and a top gear that cruises at 70-75 comfortably, four gears just ain't enough to avoid falling into those holes.

With that torque and those gears, you just have to rev to 4000 sometimes and certainly over 3500. I've got stock gears and a 3.88, and after working that chart for days concluded that a 3.44 wasn't going to work with my engine's torque. What I'm really trying to avoid is having to downshift from fourth going up a hill, and going to a 3.44 meant downshifting a lot sooner than I do now.

So reluctantly, I followed Terry Nuckels' lead and opted for a (Gene Berg) five-speed. It's still not in the car yet, but probably will be in a month or two. It's a whole giant heap of money, but I concluded unavoidable if I want both the engine and driver breathing easy anywhere we go.

Here's a chart comparing my current four-speed with the new five-speed. First, second, and top gears stay the same. But the new fourth and third replace the old third (the red line on the chart) and close the 2-3, 3-4, and 4-5 gaps so that the 'recovery rpm' is a whole lot less.

http://tinyurl.com/qasvwdp

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^...word.

Good choice, Mitch.

Mitch, Terry, and Anthony know what they're talking about. I wish I had about $5K from my many, many engine permutations back so I could just spend it on a 5-speed and be done with it.

IMHO, if more people had a 2110 with a 120 cam, good heads, 40 Dellortos, and a nicely done 5 speed, there wouldn't be such a mad rush to Subaru.