Ryan, here are some photos of the horns and tin gap in my car for comparison. If anything, the horns angle up a bit towards the back after passing under the axle.
Send Tony your photos and he'll let you know where to go from here. I think I'm with Stan - don't drive it until you talk to Tony.
Thanks so much @Sacto Mitch. Yeah, it's clear my underside does not look like that. She's in the garage for now.
@WOLFGANG, I don't know what you mean by recent. I bought it in August 2016, but it was built by VS in 2006. I have been known to take my car on dirt roads, but jumps are not my forte. My hunch is that it broke on my commute home, as documented here.
Ryan in NorCal posted:
Driving home tonight I heard a knock under the center of the car. Maybe a pothole but more like a knock.
Within a mile I noticed clutch wasn’t performing the same. By mile 3 I could no longer find a gear without pumping the clutch repeatedly until it magically worked.
It was then that my guardian angel, @Dave Mitchell, pulled up to save me. “I have no clutch,” I said. “Ok. Gotta go, bye!” he replied as he peeled off in his Abarth.
A few seconds later my real guardian angel shows up in the form of a mechanic who yells, “your throttle pin” (or something like this - Remember, this is rush hour, and I am stopped in a bottleneck, making an even bigger bottleneck). Anyway, he goes on to say, “your clutch is hella soft, right? Keep pumping it to try to find a gear.” After 50yards of this angel pushing me along I get it, just in time for the green light. He disappears into the traffic and I set my goal of making it the last couple miles in first gear. I made it.
Regarding the Berrien Buggy Tubular Frame Horns... Can that be used with a stock body or is it just for abused dune buggies?
Wow that's about the widest one I've seen .... " you're Arse is a drag'n for sure. and continued driving will allow it to snap as it's hardened steel Wolfgang has the only....correct part fix , yes......... you'll need to pull everything off the back. R & I that section as well as reinstall the torsion tubs resetting the ride height too. Find a professional fabricator . IMHO ....A race car frame guy knows how to dry fit and get it dead on w/o any variation whatsoever in fit and they'll be able to get it right. Don't trust this to a back yard garage guy ...Me personally if I ran into this (and have )I would take it to the pro's along with a case of their preferred beverage. " Drclock "
Alan Merklin posted:Wow that's about the widest one I've seen .... " you're Arse is a drag'n for sure. and continued driving will allow it to snap as it's hardened steel Wolfgang has the only....correct part fix , yes......... you'll need to pull everything off the back.. THEN find a professional fabricator . IMHO ....A race car frame guy knows how to dry fit and get it dead on w/o any variation whatsoever in fit and they'll be able to get it right. Don't trust this to a back yard garage guy ...Me personally if I ran into this (and have )I would take it to the pro's along with a case of their preferred beverage. " Drclock "
Thanks @Alan Merklin. How does one find a professional fabricator? Or a race car frame guy? I thought you were the professional? If you are bringing it to a professional in this case, then how can us mere mortals find this type of skill?
Ryan, Tony is pretty well connected in the local racing community.
If he can't do the repair himself, he'll know who can.
That's fixable, Ryan! Stiff upper lip, buddy.
Oohhh; just came home and look at what's going on! Quite the kink in the frame horns; it is fixable though. I think, Ryan, the best advice is to get the car to Anthony. As Mitch said, if Anthony can't fix it himself he'll know who can.
By a professional, DRClock means someone with certified welding experience on car frames and a frame/alignment machine. It would be very dangerous should it break as is and, if new piece were half-ass welded in and broke, same thing. I thought maybe you had purchased it directly from VS within last year or 2. I think it was rusted when it was converted back in 2006 and merely covered with bondo or undercoating. It clearly was not a "completely" refurbished VW pan. The last 12 years it must have been paper thin. If you were to strike horns with a ball hammer you'd see much more rust and a lot of sand would fall out.
Dune buggies use same chassis width so assume it would work - a call to Berrien or the seller would confirm. That far gone only other alternative is a new rear chassis frame section - far more work so more costly plus it could cause change in pan serial number (which is probably the VIN used on title).
Three-wheeling Ryan! 
Wow, that is a scary sight, but remember, anything can be fixed! I'm in Shingle Springs and I have a car trailer and truck if you need help hauling it anywhere. Or you can do what my friend Thom did. He called AAA and told them his VW wouldn't start and had them haul his Thing to the repair shop. Let me know, Chris.
The frame horns, not the three wheeling!
I know my limitations and go to the Pro's when needed
Chassis are old, some very old....Wolfgang hit it ( no pun) Whwn I did my own chassis rebuilding, I would grind clean the frame horns ( and front beam frame head mount) I used a hammer and go along frame horns / frame head listening for dull sounds, heavy gauge frame steel should have a good bounce to it. Find a dirt track or drag shop those guys are artists making intensive work look easy. Even if the Berrien replacement won't quite fit it's a good piece to start with with, it's jig built. Theron's posted pic did come to mind best to keep in on pavement :~)
Theron posted:Three-wheeling Ryan!
LOL. I was lucky to get out of that one unscathed. Never to be repeated. I drove it back out there in my Suburban and didn't have the guts to repeat. I took my Speedster back again a few months back and it was even worse. Water has been building canyons in that trail road with no maintenance for years, it seems. I've definitely settled down in my off road activities. It was never really about performance, just the views.
I'm reluctant to say the bondo was added by the trail. Charitably, it was already there when VS bought the pan. Or one of his guys "fixed" it on a Friday afternoon, just before clocking out. I'm led to believe it's all part of the madness (or just bad luck).
Thanks for all of the encouragement and counsel. Looking forward to hearing back from Tony and getting it fixed.
Dang. Good luck, Ryan.
If need be I can come up from Fresno with my trailer and haul it to Tony's for you.
Sorry to hear Ryan. I had that car for almost 10 years and didn't notice that on the horns. She can be repaired!!! Hang in there.
-=theron
Thanks everyone. Tony got back to me last night and we spoke this morning. He's making some calls to figure out my options. One of which is getting a new pan sent up from Kirk and putting my body on the new pan (saving welding labor costs and potential future failure at a new point of weakness created by the "fix"). Also suggested a Kafer Bar to anchor the new frame horns from the top. I'll keep you updated.
A "new" VS pan is actually a refurbished pan that has to be cut and shortened ~11" and rewelded. Additionally most of VS's pans end up as swing axle pans so if they were to start as IRS that's more welding. A 40 year old refurbished pan is still a 40 year old pan. Plus a new pan will require re-titling which is always fun - probably more so in Calif. It's an alternative but not an easy or inexpensive one.
A Kafer bar would have made it last a little longer but just a temp patch. If you have high HP then a Kafer bar is indeed helpful to handle the extra stress but it isn't solution for rusted out horns.
Theron posted:Sorry to hear Ryan. I had that car for almost 10 years and didn't notice that on the horns. She can be repaired!!! Hang in there.
-=theron
How could you not notice that? Was the engine sealed when you had it?
Ryan in NorCal posted:Thanks everyone. Tony got back to me last night and we spoke this morning. He's making some calls to figure out my options. One of which is getting a new pan sent up from Kirk and putting my body on the new pan (saving welding labor costs and potential future failure at a new point of weakness created by the "fix"). Also suggested a Kafer Bar to anchor the new frame horns from the top. I'll keep you updated.
Not another Speedster down! ! ! So sorry, Ryan!
I just sent you a PM regarding a new shortened pan. If you were down south, I wouldn't have a problem switching out pans for you...
Hang in there!
Putting a new pan under seems like the long (and expensive) way to do it, Ryan, compared to what I proposed. As I said in our conversation, there isn't any reason you couldn't be back on the road in a couple of days. What about getting the car re-registered with new pan numbers?
Correctly fix what you have , R & I a body off chassis is labor intensive and causes a new can of worms without fail ( title re-register etc. etc). Go with the buggy replacement section as it's easy should you have to do minor fabrication modifications.
Bill Prout posted:Theron posted:Sorry to hear Ryan. I had that car for almost 10 years and didn't notice that on the horns. She can be repaired!!! Hang in there.
-=theronHow could you not notice that? Was the engine sealed when you had it?
Of course.
As Ryan stated, the seal only recently came out, which would mean the horn recently bent. He bought the car from me more than a year ago.
Here's another way to patch the horns - if you can find solid replacement horns -
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/fo...wtopic.php?p=4685470
I would definitely add a good Kafer bar with this solution.
WOLFGANG posted:Here's another way to patch the horns - if you can find solid replacement horns -
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/fo...wtopic.php?p=4685470
That's what I suggested, Greg. A friend has repaired 2 different pans with donor pieces like that and it works well (no changing the pan and no registration hassles).
The extensive welding that's needed splicing horns can take the steel hardening away, I wouldn't go that route . Scenario: Speedster is involved in a fatality accident and the repaired frame horns have crack and or come apart State Police etc. do a full inspecting discovering the spliced frame horns , not a good outcome for sure. Best to do it right with the aftermarket section. Just my .02
Alan Merklin posted:Scenario: Speedster is involved in a fatality accident and the repaired frame horns have crack and or come apart State Police etc. do a full inspecting discovering the spliced frame horns , not a good outcome for sure. Best to do it right with the aftermarket section. Just my .02
Hmmm, if that were true, I suspect the same could be said of any of our pan based cars? All of them were cut in half, shortened, and welded back together? No?
Alan Merklin posted:
The extensive welding that's needed splicing horns can take the steel hardening away, I wouldn't go that route . Scenario: Speedster is involved in a fatality accident and the repaired frame horns have crack and or come apart State Police etc. do a full inspecting discovering the spliced frame horns , not a good outcome for sure. Best to do it right with the aftermarket section. Just my .02
I don't know a lot about metallurgy and welding, so if I'm way off in left field, Alan please tell me why, but aren't aren't the frame horns non-hardened cold rolled steel? The frame horns are only held together with spot welds along their horizontal seams and the off road crowd weld these seams up for strength all the time. If the repair is done properly (with the pieces overlapping) by someone who knows what they are doing they'll be as strong as (or stronger than) the original will they not?
Note- I don't know how, but the pics ended up in Alan's quote. Have a look at how this repair was done- this is the fit before welding.
PS- ^^^And Ryan said it perfectly^^^
Thanks for all the support. This is really really helpful. And continued apologies to @wombat, for totally hijacking your thread. It started out relevant, I promise.
Anyway, I've chatted with just about everyone now. Tony was nice enough to call up Justin at VS to see about getting a pan up here and strategized about how to solve the problem. And @*LongFella shared that Greg at Vintage Motorcars might also be able to source a pan. The good news is that @Robert M offered to trail me where I need, so maybe I'll just have him pick up the pan in SoCal and bring it up to me. 😉
Bugformance shared another strategy this evening. See attached for how they fixed the same problem about 10 years back in a pale yellow Speedster around here (see attached images). @RocklinMike, isn't yours pale yellow? Are your frame horns patched? They said they haven't heard back and assume all is good with it. They did mention that they've never seen this in a regular bug ever. Even baja bugs. My luck. If I ended up that route, I'd want a larger patch, with drilled holes for more welding surface area and better penetration. They did say they'd have me up and running again within a day or two though at a fifth of the cost of the other solutions so far (based on the 10yo invoice for labor). Something to consider.
Ultimately my car will look great wherever she is, even on a tow truck. You all are the best. Thanks for making it easy for a guy without any wrenching cred to hang around and learn from you all.
While that patch is incredibly rough (and poorly done; even I know that weld looks like bird poop!), it's probably held,Ryan, and it goes to show you this repair can be done way more inexpensively than what's been proposed (putting another pan under it). It shouldn't be too hard to source a frame horn (or 2- do both need to be done or just the 1? after all you're in California!) and do it the way my pics (not actually "my" pics- as usual I stole them off this great big interweb!) show. If you do some more asking around you'll find someone that will be able to splice the pieces together properly. Anthony must know someone capable of this- I think you just have to tell him that putting another pan underneath is not an option. There are lots of guys in the VW world in Cali that can do this. Al
I think Tony is right on target. I suspect a patch, even a good strong one that lasts is always going to look like a patch, perhaps impacting resale value as well. Plus, there could be other concerns that need addressing. Balancing, leveling, etc.
That said, getting back on the road right away is attractive. And my kids might appreciate more Christmas budget.
I like that Samba link fix best so far. Assuming you could source clean used frame horns, and assuming the remainders of your stock horns are not rusted out, that slide-over-the-old ones fix looks like the best combination of strongest/cheapest/easiest.
The tubular Buggie ones are a close second, and first place if you've not got access to a pile of old Beetle back halves or if you can't trust any part of the existing horns.
I'm also curious to learn more about Alan's "hardened steel" concerns. The horns look like pressed mild steel...but maybe they've got some spring in them? A little more carbon in the mix? Given their purpose, it makes sense. In which case the aftermarket units are the clear winner.
Theron posted:Bill Prout posted:Theron posted:Sorry to hear Ryan. I had that car for almost 10 years and didn't notice that on the horns. She can be repaired!!! Hang in there.
-=theronHow could you not notice that? Was the engine sealed when you had it?
Of course.
As Ryan stated, the seal only recently came out, which would mean the horn recently bent. He bought the car from me more than a year ago.
Correct. I think the problem happened when the clutch cable went out last month on my commute home. The rust was covered in paint, and I didn’t go knocking on the frame horns because until yesterday I didn’t know what they were. @Theron has been upright with me the whole way and I’d definitely buy from him again. I think this is bad luck. I’ll get it sorted and back on the road.
Ryan, I'd offer the use of Penny while yours is being fixed but I know how you drive...
Terry Nuckels posted:Ryan, I'd offer the use of Penny while yours is being fixed but I know how you drive...
Ok, that made me laugh out loud!
I think, Ryan, that, as (has been mentioned) the pan's already been cut in half, it may or may not have replacement floors in it and if a repair such as this is done properly (leveled, fitted, welded) it won't affect anything and resale value shouldn't be an issue. This is the most economical fix and it will work, being as strong or stronger than original, but if you feel the need to put another pan under the body I get it. I think you're wasting your money, but I get it.
WOLFGANG posted:Probably. Is it a recent VS build? If not, it's on you. Moisture and mud get inside and over years they rust out. It should have addressed when car was built - bondo is not a fix! Berrien Buggy makes a nice $99 fix for it. Of course, engine and trans will have to come out to have new bits welded in. http://www.jimscustomvw.com/bebutufrho.html
This option here with one of the Kafer bars suggestions earlier, such as Mendeola's or one of the others, seems to be the most realistic fix. Pulling the body off and putting in a new pan and getting it inspected etc, seems a bit extreme, unless Ryan were going to do everything himself, but I don't think Ryan has the time to do that repair himself. These tubular frame horns look pretty solid and they definitely look stronger than the factory horns. Couple this with a Kafer bar and Bob's your uncle.
How many of you guys ran out and looked at your frame horns after reading about this issue?
I have the Mendiola system in my car. I really never thought a lot about it. I am concerned though because my engine tins don't line up nearly as well as some of you other guys. Maybe I'll crank down on those two down tubes on the truss system to see if I can line 'em up better. 
If the engine sits low you have a lower center of gravity. All the better to zoom zoom around corners. Afraid Ryan's was getting ready to dump though.
Alright. I got a butt lift.
I took a calculated approach that's likely to disappoint most everyone here. I had two approaches, one was ~$1k and 2 days and one was $5k and 2+ weeks. I knew the second one would make it all perfect. But before I did that I wanted to give the $1k option a chance. I took it to Bugformance (the local VW Bug experts) who shared they saw this problem before (as mentioned above).
After seeing mine they now believe this is a flaw in the way the frame horn was weakened for the heater tube. I was open to Kafer bars and the like, but they seemed to think this would hold up far better than it left the factory in 2006.
Exhaust looks level. A bit scared to bring out the actual level.
They made a point to show that not only was the crack welded up, but also the seams on both sides of the frame horns. And then it was patched over. It looks like the did a fine job to me. I think far better than the other one turned out 10 years ago.
The ride home was uneventful. It was good to be back in the Speedster, but I was nervous to reacquaint myself with the car. My accelerator still is "sticky" and had hoped it would magically be cured at the same time as the butt lift.
And, the engine compartment is as sealed as I've ever seen it. Really. It looks like a brand new engine compartment. I'll get pics later.
But what do I know? What do you all think?
