This may be a hard question to answer directly, but with so many different body, chassis, suspension, engine combinations, does anyone have any performance numbers to help sort out the best bang for the buck in performance? Most of these cars are light,(1600-1900lbs) and have type I or type IV engines. Some with suby and porsche power. Has anyone ever looked at 0-60 times, 0-100 times, 1/4 mile, braking distances...etc to really see if that extra $5,000, $7,000 or $10,000 is worth it in terms of engine upgrades.... versus a lighter car or better suspension and transmission and gearing? IS that $X,000.00 up charge for a suby worth the extra HP for maybe .1-.2 sec faster to 60? Im new to the speedster search and would love to hear numbers and/or seat of the pants info. Thanks.
Replies sorted oldest to newest
It's all relative, dude. What one guy can justify, another can't....
CHEAP - FAST - RELIABLE
You can only pick 2.
A hi-po Type 1 engine will move a light car quite quickly. There's also a huge amount of quality aftermarket parts so you can build a anything from 60hp to 250hp. It just depends how think your wallet is.
Type 4 engine are more expensive to rebuild and upgrade.
Porsche 356/912 engines are more expensive than Type 4
Subaru engines are very reliable and fast, but they require a radiator and after all, shouldn't a Speedster have an air cooled engine?
Glenn Ring posted:CHEAP - FAST - RELIABLE
You can only pick 2.
A hi-po Type 1 engine will move a light car quite quickly. There's also a huge amount of quality aftermarket parts so you can build a anything from 60hp to 250hp. It just depends how think your wallet is.
Type 4 engine are more expensive to rebuild and upgrade.
Porsche 356/912 engines are more expensive than Type 4
Subaru engines are very reliable and fast, but they require a radiator and after all, shouldn't a Speedster have an air cooled engine?
I agree with that, but at what point does the disparity between engines justify cost? Does 95HP really move more than 80? Does 200 in a suby really worth the money versus a 150hp type I-IV? Just was wondering how the real numbers shook out.
Some even have water cooled Audi/VW engines (1.8-2L). Advantage of the new watercooled engines is modern fuel delivery/electronics, better polution/environmental controls, near no maintenance PLUS ability to have AC/heat. W/Subbie 4 cyl there isn't much weight gain for 2x the hp.
Nothing wrong with a 1776 cc T1 for long life and the right sound. How much $$$ you have determines how fast you can go.
It al depends on what you plan on using your car for and how much money you have to burn...What do you want to do with your car? I'd put a Mendiola Suspension system in before a suby, others the opposite.
Ndpendant posted:Glenn Ring posted:CHEAP - FAST - RELIABLE
You can only pick 2.
A hi-po Type 1 engine will move a light car quite quickly. There's also a huge amount of quality aftermarket parts so you can build a anything from 60hp to 250hp. It just depends how think your wallet is.
Type 4 engine are more expensive to rebuild and upgrade.
Porsche 356/912 engines are more expensive than Type 4
Subaru engines are very reliable and fast, but they require a radiator and after all, shouldn't a Speedster have an air cooled engine?
I agree with that, but at what point does the disparity between engines justify cost? Does 95HP really move more than 80? Does 200 in a suby really worth the money versus a 150hp type I-IV? Just was wondering how the real numbers shook out.
Hard to say... there's a law of diminishing returns. If it cost X to double the HP, then it's many times more to double it again.
You can build a 2110 with 150hp and I think you'll have enough trouble keeping traction.
Also Type 4 and Subaru engine are heavier than a Type 1 and having that extra weight hanging past the rear can adversely affect handling
crhemi (Bill) posted:It al depends on what you plan on using your car for and how much money you have to burn...What do you want to do with your car? I'd put a Mendiola Suspension system in before a suby, others the opposite.
Bill hit the nail on the head. Anytime you do a motor, suspension, brakes, etc., the first thing you need to do to get the best bang for your buck is to decide what purpose do you want the car? Drag racing, canyon driving, long trips, gas milage, highway vs. street?
I can give you a 1/4 mile time for a 2335cc in a tube framed Intermeccanica (not mine).
Years ago another Ron (Bob knows who I'm talking about) put a 2335 into his IM and took it to our local drag strip. He said the engine was putting out around 165 hp.
This was his first time at a drag strip and a speedster is not the easiest car to launch properly, but he managed a 14.1 second run. I'm sure, with practice, he could have easily dipped into the high 13s.
At the time I had sold my IM and was driving a V8 powered Miata. I had never done a quarter mile run before, so I decided to give it a try. Around the half-way point I shifted into 3rd and broke my rear 'U' joint, coasting the rest of the way, with my drive shaft lying on the track. Thankfully it was the rear 'U' joint and not the front joint. That could have been disastrous.
Even though I coasted half the way I still managed a 15.1
For a purist the AC is for sure the best engine but the characteristic or a type one engine is that it has a rather narrow powerband. Having lived with many AC and an IM 2110cc for 5 years and now living with a Subie 2.5L it is an amazing shift and the torque curve is very addictive. I did improve a lot of areas on my new IM, suspension, brakes etc. I enjoyed the AC near perfect replica experience and I am now enjoying a new IM with subie engine experience. I purposely kept it Normally aspirated and stayed away from a turbo. Ray
Bill's on a small hawaiian island - more than 45 minute drive in either direction and he'd need water wings. AC/heat and dependability are not real requirement - ha, nor top cruising speed.
Stop light to stop light, but I get there quick!
Normal "value metrics" (how much bang for the buck am I getting?) are pretty meaningless with a speedster. I bought my first because it looked like a cheap way to get a cool car. As it turned out, it was FAR and away the most expensive "bang for the buck" decision I ever could have made. Madness indeed.
... and do you know what? I couldn't care less. If you don't ever plan to get rid of it, a thing is worth what you decide it is. It doesn't matter if it holds value, or returns your investment-- if it scratches in places nothing else will, then it's worth what you put into it (as long as you are deriving enjoyment from it).
Some guys buy everything with the intent to sell, and that's cool. Once I moved past that, it stopped mattering so much if my $XXXX was spent better here or there. I knew I'd eventually get around to both here AND there. Once money stopped being the metric everything was measured against, the ideas and cool stuff started flowing.
My advice? Buy the nicest frame, body, and paint you can afford, and run whatever lump is back there. Once you know more, spend money on the stuff that bugs you. You may end up with two or three engines back there before you land on the perfect set-up (I've had three different engines, with at least one variation on each, and three permutations of 4-speed transaxle). I'd like a better front suspension, but I'm 100% satisfied with my rear end. And on and on it goes. I've replaced the seats, and had all of the gauges redone. I'd like to rescreen the speedometer, now that it reads correctly.
The "madness" part of the "welcome to the madness" is that these cars are like paper-dolls for middle-aged men with disposable income: we're always improving, replacing, or just changing something to make it more and more our own. Once a guy stops, he tends to get bored and sells his car to buy a ??? Two years later, he's still lurking and being reminded that whatever vastly better (from a value standpoint) car he's got is just not a speedster, and never will be. It's a virus, it gets in your blood.
You don't know what you want until you have a car that you'd like to make better. Trying to figure out what you're going to like before you have one is like telling yourself you know what you are getting into before you have kids-- you just can't know until you jump in.
+1 Stan.
I don't know how many times I've told Teby and Troy I got the car right where I want it, only to spend more money to take it a little bit more where I want it.
MR ND Pendant, can I call you by your first name Mr NDPendant? Well
Before the Radicals in this arena bend your ear 100 ways to Sunday You have to ask your self.. "what am I going to do with the car?", "and how am I going to drive it"
Once you answer that, then let us know so we can guide you in the right direction.
And Stan just uses big words like "permutations" just to expound his huge vocabulary.
He meant to say there are 3 possible variations.. lol!!
Stan: Robert M has a pool and guest room!! Just say'n
The weather hear today was awesome and Robert M and I had a nice long 100 mile drive!!
Tebs
Stan does keep us entertained with his prose
Teby S posted:
Stan: Robert M has a pool and guest room!! Just say'n
The weather hear today was awesome and Robert M and I had a nice long 100 mile drive!!
Tebs
Will there be shrimp tacos down at the surf shack? After work? At say, 3:30-ish?
Stan Galat, '05 IM, 2276, Tremont, IL posted:Teby S posted:
Stan: Robert M has a pool and guest room!! Just say'n
The weather hear today was awesome and Robert M and I had a nice long 100 mile drive!!
Tebs
Will there be shrimp tacos down at the surf shack? After work? At say, 3:30-ish?
If by the "Surf Shack" you mean Wahoo's Fish Tacos then yes. That's usually where Teby and I have lunch after long drives in the mountains. Oh and cold beer too.
Stan Galat, '05 IM, 2276, Tremont, IL posted:Normal "value metrics" (how much bang for the buck am I getting?) are pretty meaningless with a speedster. I bought my first because it looked like a cheap way to get a cool car. As it turned out, it was FAR and away the most expensive "bang for the buck" decision I ever could have made. Madness indeed.
... and do you know what? I couldn't care less. If you don't ever plan to get rid of it, a thing is worth what you decide it is. It doesn't matter if it holds value, or returns your investment-- if it scratches in places nothing else will, then it's worth what you put into it (as long as you are deriving enjoyment from it).
Some guys buy everything with the intent to sell, and that's cool. Once I moved past that, it stopped mattering so much if my $XXXX was spent better here or there. I knew I'd eventually get around to both here AND there. Once money stopped being the metric everything was measured against, the ideas and cool stuff started flowing.
My advice? Buy the nicest frame, body, and paint you can afford, and run whatever lump is back there. Once you know more, spend money on the stuff that bugs you. You may end up with two or three engines back there before you land on the perfect set-up (I've had three different engines, with at least one variation on each, and three permutations of 4-speed transaxle). I'd like a better front suspension, but I'm 100% satisfied with my rear end. And on and on it goes. I've replaced the seats, and had all of the gauges redone. I'd like to rescreen the speedometer, now that it reads correctly.
The "madness" part of the "welcome to the madness" is that these cars are like paper-dolls for middle-aged men with disposable income: we're always improving, replacing, or just changing something to make it more and more our own. Once a guy stops, he tends to get bored and sells his car to buy a ??? Two years later, he's still lurking and being reminded that whatever vastly better (from a value standpoint) car he's got is just not a speedster, and never will be. It's a virus, it gets in your blood.
You don't know what you want until you have a car that you'd like to make better. Trying to figure out what you're going to like before you have one is like telling yourself you know what you are getting into before you have kids-- you just can't know until you jump in.
Thank you for the reply, I agree with the ever ongoing improvements we make with these cars. My last 3 projects were the same way, I usually buy to build, to tinker, to get it to a point I dont think I can make more improvements without being totally illogical with the cost versus performance and then sell and move on to another project car. My question is more should we really spend the money on a 200hp engine when a 150 hp engine gives us a not truly perceivable (or statistical) difference in performance and the driving experience. I understand that these are very subjective. I like to go fast, scary fast, I come from a cart and motorcycle racing background, but I really want to build a one of unique type of car that I enjoy for me. Was just looking for input on permutations of engine setup and what people found worked for them.
Teby, keep the myth going.
If Stan wants to believe there are surf shacks in Fresno, who are we to burst the bubble? In a way, Stan very much needs to believe there are surf shacks. And shrimp tacos. And a rolling, blue Pacific that stretches to the horizon. And smiling, wide-eyed surfer girls.
When you live in Peoria, you need something to get you through the dark and stormy night, the long and snowy winter, the sixteen-hour day.
You need a dream. And, for better or worse, we are Stan's dream.
I wish they all could be California girls.
Teby S posted:MR ND Pendant, can I call you by your first name Mr NDPendant? Well
Before the Radicals in this arena bend your ear 100 ways to Sunday You have to ask your self.. "what am I going to do with the car?", "and how am I going to drive it"
Once you answer that, then let us know so we can guide you in the right direction.
And Stan just uses big words like "permutations" just to expound his huge vocabulary.
He meant to say there are 3 possible variations.. lol!!
Stan: Robert M has a pool and guest room!! Just say'n
The weather hear today was awesome and Robert M and I had a nice long 100 mile drive!!
Tebs
Tebs, the short answer is I drive with a spirited right foot. I dont think competitive track racing is in the future for this car, but I come from a cart racing and motorcycle drag racing background, so I really like to go fast. Understandably to build a truly race capable speedster replica isnt the best choice for lots of reasons. There are a lot of cars that work out better for that purpose. I want to build a really unique "race" version of a speedster that perhaps was built at the time period, pay homage to the original design, but try to make a car that replicates what may have been built to race in 1956-57. The look, the sound, the austerity of a race version that is still drivable to cars and coffee on a sunday am. I wouldnt mind if it scared me a little bit to get on it, but I dont want an car that is a burden to drive and maintain. I have the car id like built in my head, but this is my first venture in to german engineering...was very italian in my last project and this is a new frontier. Half the weight and half the cylinders and half the money makes this very intriguing to me and Ive really fallen in love with the madness....
And Nd, or Paul is fine!
This winter, I switched to water-cooled Suby with 175hp.
The car gained 83 lbs and now ways 1811.
The difference in throttle response and power band is dramatic. It pulls all the way to redline at 6400.
It fires up and runs & 2nd gear will give you whiplash.
I think that it's the sweet spot at the high end for hp & reliability.
>
Ndpendant posted:...I like to go fast, scary fast, I come from a cart and motorcycle racing background..
One of the nice things about a Speedster is that scary fast comes in at much lower real speeds than in most modern performance cars.
You will feel closer to being in a go-cart, or on a motorcycle, than in a modern car.
And you probably won't need 200 hp to feel that way - 150-165 hp is probably enough, and much more practical and affordable, too.
I think a nicely built 2110 cc VW Type 1 would get you there. It's a middle-ground sweet spot where many of us have landed after much head scratching, soul searching, and wallet emptying.
Sacto Mitch posted:Ndpendant posted:...I like to go fast, scary fast, I come from a cart and motorcycle racing background..
One of the nice things about a Speedster is that scary fast comes in at much lower real speeds than in most modern performance cars.
You will feel closer to being in a go-cart, or on a motorcycle, than in a modern car.
And you probably won't need 200 hp to feel that way - 150-165 hp is probably enough, and much more practical and affordable, too.
I think a nicely built 2110 cc VW Type 1 would get you there. It's a middle-ground sweet spot where many of us have landed after much head scratching, soul searching, and wallet emptying.
Awesome information, thank you.
I happened to find this website for superchargers for Type 1-2 engines. Pretty funny site, has anyone used these??
I don't think these cars need more than 175 HP, and that's what you get with a Subaru 2.5 liter boxter style engine. even better is the low end torque! I didn't think I would mind tinkering on a car until I bought a '73 Mustang. I'm tired of tinkering, so I opted for the Subaru.
The more i look and read and try to understand, with these cars you really dont need the HP it seems. Id rather have a great handling setup and moderate engine power thats reliable. Thanks to all. Now for those of you in the huge HP class (250+) Id love to hear your side of things too.
I've seen more turbo charged T1's than Supercharged. A turbo seems easier to fit on a flat engine plus turbo just uses wasted power headed out the tail end anyhow. I'm sure it creates some real heat issues though!
Greg, not to mention the turbo spooling up and kicking in around a turn...
First, get the best suspension and brake money can buy, then match a power plant to that...
"I don't think these cars need more than 175 HP, and that's what you get with a Subaru 2.5 liter boxter style engine."
In most cases, that's true, but a 290 hp flat six just adds that little extra.
Don't cry for me too much. I'll get over it after a few beers at Carlisle :-)
>
"...just adds that little extra"
Bob, my math indicates it adds a whole lot of EXTRA!!
Attachments
Looks like Bill found the ultimate "Crate Engine".
Tom Blankinship wrote: "Don't cry for me too much. I'll get over it after a few beers at Carlisle :-) "
What.....They don't sell beer in Michigan?
It's not really a question of need when we talk about big HP, is it? For many of us, these cars evoke a time in our lives when we were much younger, and, in my case at least, without the financial means of doing much about stock HP. Now, in later life, we are less constrained by financial shortfalls or technical inabilities that kept us from becoming true modifiers in the past. Our hands are still important. For some of us, that means wrenching. For others, writing a check.
The platform difference with a Subi engine also allows for doubling HP without some of the constraints of an air-cooled engine. This is not to say there aren't unintended consequences of raising the HP of any engine. For Subis, heat elimination is the single most important factor of going big HP, in my experience. One third of engine power goes to turning the wheels, one third goes out the exhaust as waste heat, and fully one third goes through engine cooling system.
That means when you get to 300 HP, you now have 100 HP that needs to be cooled. In a stock Subaru engine and chassis, it's not tough to get to the 450-500 HP range on a street car. Some lower end work to beef up the rotating mass, a big turbo, larger intercooler, and a pile of associated add-ons. Companies like Crawford and Cosworth routinely offer big street motors in the $15K range. One surprising fact about increasing Subaru power is that most successful Subi tuners agree that you can safely double the stock HP in a Subi engine with bolt-ons, no lower end work at all. Pretty amazing, eh?
We have lots of variables in our cooling systems: radiator size, placement, number of circuits, number of fins/inch, and material type. Then we have shrouds, ducting, fans, water pumps, and on and on. This doesn't even consider the intercooler and options for that-air/air or air/water. There are very few experts we can turn to with our cars, as much of this is new ground. I'm not suggesting that we are the first hard-to-cool cars, since there are lots of historic examples of those types of vehicles. However, our replicas provide challenges that most shops/companies haven't been exposed to, with big HP Subis and a VW or tube frame platform.
There is a predictable shortage of space to hang all the additional pieces of cooling equipment. Of course, every manufacturer of a cooling device, whether it be radiators, oil coolers, other heat exchangers, or an a/c condenser, all tell give you the same instructions: mount MY equipment in the best possible space, where you are guaranteed a sufficient amount of uninterrupted cooling air. You quickly see the problem.
I have now made the following changes: new larger aluminum rad with proper ducting and shrouding, high-performance puller fans, placed in the compartment where the engine sits in a conventional rear-engine car. I finally had to cut out the entire deck lid, leaving only the outer perimeter, using grill mesh to cover what was previously a solid surface. The reason is that you need a good, uninterrupted flow of air coming into AND leaving the radiator. That means that a fairly closed space downstream of the puller fans inhibits the flow needed for proper heat transfer of the coolant.
That's just the start, but I'll continue explaining my build in the future when I have more time.
Jim I think your trying to beat the record for complexity of a subie install
Bob's kept it simple and just got himself an oil cooled speed rocket.
Hp is like money... you can always use a little more
Ray,
I'm not trying to make it complicated. I'm trying to make it work. If I knew of a simple fix, that would be my preference.
Much of what I'm doing is reactionary. The car wouldn't do what it was supposed to do on delivery. The things I've been doing are what SAS was supposed to do prior to delivery. You'd think a guy that advertises that he has built "over 300 specially-bulit cars and hot rods" would be capable of delivering a vehicle that functioned as intended.
Jim, got any pictures of your new deck lid?
"You'd think a guy that advertises that he has built "over 300 specially-bulit cars and hot rods" would be capable of delivering a vehicle that functioned as intended."
Are you sure he didn't say, "I've taken money from over 300 people to build cars....."? Because that means a whole lot more than having built over 300 cars, Just saying!!