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Back to the original question with what I was recall from when Jake (Raby) and Charles (LN Engineering) did testing on this exact question.

From what I remember: there is no real issue, fuel related, just dilution of the amount of ethanol in your fuel.  HOWEVER, the ethanol fuel, especially once it had started to separate water out of it, held a "sludge" in suspension and also created a milky "sludge" in the tank.  The addition of non ethanol fuel  broke this "sludge" up and passed it though the system.  So, what I took away from it was to run one or the other, or flush your tank if you were changing to non-ethanol after having run ethanol fuel.

As for our cars, we run ethanol impervious fuel related items wherever we can.  In today's world this is just about everything EXCEPT most internal carburetor parts.  There is now an accelerator pump diaphragm (red in color) that is mad not handle ethanol, which we use in all of our carburetor rebuilds, but it is the only ethanol safe rubber/plastic part we've found for carb internals.

Where I've seen issues with carb internals:  1) Dried up o-rings on idle jets and mixture screws.  These seem to be less effected, probably because they are not submersed in fuel all the time, but we see them dry and hard fairly regularly.  2) Weber fuel inlet screen is a brass mesh housed in plastic.  I've seen the plastic deteriorate, eliminating the inlet filtering and adding plastic particles directly to the float bowls.  3) and probably the biggest we've seines floats.  Weber floats (40/44/48) are plastic and were seeing it shed in layers.  Literally the outside coating/layer flaking off and depositing in the float bowls.  For those of you that know carb internals, the fuel inlet screen is your last line of defense against particulates, so when they fail or when the floats shed, they have a direct route to internal passages/jets.

I guess one other place we see some issue with both sludge and deterioration is in fuel pumps and regulators.  Sludge build up from sitting, pumps with rubber impellers, and regulators with rubber diaphragms can all be effected.

Reverse sear.

Prime New York strip, very thickly cut.  Trim excess fat.  Cut them in half (sacrilegious I know, but stick with me).  

If bloody, pat dry.  Sprinkle kosher salt (I prefer Morton’s) and fresh coarsely cracked pepper on both sides.  I find they can handle more salt and pepper than you might think, so don’t be stingy.  Using tongs, squeeze each piece so as to compact them laterally which keeps them thick.

Transfer to a wire rack that sits on a cookie sheet lined with aluminum foil (the foil makes cleanup easier).  As you pick them up from whatever surface you used to season, feel free to pick up some salt and pepper on the perimeter as you transfer.  After placing each piece on the wire rack, squeeze with tongs to keep ‘em thick.

Place into an oven preheated to about 280F to 300F.  Assuming you like your steaks medium rare, cook for about 18 to 20 minutes.  The steaks should not look fully cooked but the outer surfaces should be turning color and will be a bit dry.  The dryness (and previous trimming of excess fat) is helpful to achieve a good sear in the next step.

Using your trusty cast iron skillet, start heating it a few minutes prior to the end of the oven time so it is pretty much ready when the steaks are removed from the oven.  Once the skillet is sufficiently hot, I will pour a very small amount of veggie oil in the skillet, then carefully and quickly spread it using a few paper towels folded several times.  Then pick up each steak using tongs and transfer to the skillet.  They should sizzle but not violently so.  (This is a good time to turn off the oven and place your plates in the oven to preheat them, or use a warming drawer if you have one)

Leave undisturbed for about ~5 minutes, then flip.  Five minutes on the other side.  If you have a center hot spot, you may find it helpful to spin each piece 180* within the five minute sear.  Now, using your tongs sear the perimeter one edge at a time for a minute or so for each edge.  You may need to hold a few pieces together to get them to stay on edge, or lean them against the outer edge of the skillet.  Judge doneness, and if a bit more cooking is needed, then place flat again and flip frequently until sufficiently cooked.

Transfer back to the wire rack, still sitting above the aluminum lined cookie sheet. (I stack them and  cover with foil and let rest)

When ready to plate, be sure to collect juices that you will find on the cookie sheet and spoon over each plated steak.  I highly suggest a small scoop of compound butter be dolloped onto each steak at this point (high quality unsalted butter mixed with fresh finely shredded high quality Parmesan cheese with some minced rosemary and a small amount of minced garlic and red hot pepper flakes).

Asparagus tossed with a touch of olive oil lightly seasoned with salt and pepper properly broiled and your favorite beer completes this simple meal.  Add your favorite potatoes if that’s how you roll.

All temperatures and times noted above are guesses, but after you try this a few times you will figure out what works best for you.  You can always cook more, so go shorter the first time.

I’m glad I live in a time where eating cows and driving a stick is still possible.  These days are numbered, so enjoy.

Living here in California, we don't have many choices of ethanol free gas, especially in the Bay Area. I switched all my gas lines to braided teflon lined and stainless hard lines to deal with the rubber killing E- gas. I spend time in the Hot Rod world when I'm not hanging out here. We have experienced some huge gas line failures, mainly braided rubber lines. Luckily no fires from any of my friends cars, but lots of clogged filters, injectors and carb jets. Fine black rubber particle are usually what we found. I'm having a speedster built by Greg at Vintage and just spoke to him a few weeks ago about running hard lines and teflon lines on my car. I confirmed with Brian at Outfront that my new motor they built has Teflon line as well. I hope by making these changes will give me many miles of trouble free driving. So if you're having problems with your fuel system and clogged parts, it might be time to change your line to somethings that will hold up to the E-gas. Has anyone had the same gas line problems with their cars with older rubber hoses?

@Stan Galat posted:




I'm not saying we shouldn't be trying. I'm saying that politicians mandating what science will look like in a certain timeframe ignores everything I've seen in my lifetime.



Stan brings up a good point with the government dictating something long before it's been invented.

In 2007 in California, I know I know say it isn't so, but someone who has never handled a firearm or knew anything about firearms wrote an Assembly Bill, that passed, that would require a firing pin in every gun that would micro-stamp a unique identifier on the primer of each round fired. The trouble with that Assembly Bill is that the technology did not exist then and it still does not exist today. So here we are 14 years later and the technology doesn't exist and no one is working on creating the technology to make it happen. All it has effectively done is severely limit the guns that manufacturers can sell in California.

Notwithstanding the fact no one is making micro-stamping available even if the technology were used it wouldn't help solve any crimes.

Last edited by Robert M

@Butcher Boy  Ah!  Another Street Rodder!

A bunch of the local Rodders have been retro-fitting their rubber hoses on Old School Rods with Teflon hoses, but covering them with reproduction woven cloth covers like in the 40s and 50s.  Hot Rod Charlie has been doing that for years now.

I don't know if pre-1960 Porsches had that cloth covering over the fuel lines (Some VWs did) so I'll ask the local expert and get back to you.

@Butcher Boy  Ah!  Another Street Rodder!

A bunch of the local Rodders have been retro-fitting their rubber hoses on Old School Rods with Teflon hoses, but covering them with reproduction woven cloth covers like in the 40s and 50s.  Hot Rod Charlie has been doing that for years now.

I don't know if pre-1960 Porsches had that cloth covering over the fuel lines (Some VWs did) so I'll ask the local expert and get back to you.

Hey Gordon, thanks for the info. I would love to hear what Hot Rod Charlie has to say and also know what he covers the line with. I have braided lines on my 1932 roadster, LS powered 1941 Cadillac and just need to do my 1950 Chevy Belair that looks stock but will do the job with E-fuel. I always run premium in my older cars.

I remind everyone that the California Air Resources Board (CARB) was created in 1967 under Gov. Ronald Reagan, that "elitist, Utopian, idiotic" politician who mandated to the auto companies what science would look like in a certain timeframe (and of course they said it was impossible, but...).

Here's the obligatory picture of Los Angeles smog before the idiotic Gov. Reagan had CARB put the auto pollution regs in place. Maybe we could learn a little about the global impact of pollution from Gov. Reagan, Exxon, and BP scientists.LA Smog

I lived in Long Beach for ~ 9 months in 1973. I was there for 7 months before I realized we drove by several small mountains on our 25 mile commute up the Long Beach Freeway.

Last edited by dlearl476

@Butcher Boy  Ah!  Another Street Rodder!

A bunch of the local Rodders have been retro-fitting their rubber hoses on Old School Rods with Teflon hoses, but covering them with reproduction woven cloth covers like in the 40s and 50s.  Hot Rod Charlie has been doing that for years now.

I don't know if pre-1960 Porsches had that cloth covering over the fuel lines (Some VWs did) so I'll ask the local expert and get back to you.

XRP sells some nice PTFE braided hoses. It’s called HS-79 and comes in a number of colors.

Belmetric sells stuff that’s closer to the old school euro fabric line. Because it’s Cohline and Continental hose. AFAIK, it’s all been updated to ethanol specs.
https://belmetric.com/hose/gasoline/

The only thing you can’t get anymore is the OEM blue braided hose that BMW and Porsche used for brake fluid. They updated it to black braid when they made it DOT 5/6 compatible.

Last edited by dlearl476
@550 Phil posted:

They sell ETOH free 90 octane gas a couple of blocks from my house in Charlottesville where I keep my Suby Spyder. Are there advantages to running ETOH free gas in a Subaru?

I’ll be putting a type 4 in my Beck 356 and I’m determined to try to run ETOH free gas in that car.

FWIW, I was running mid grade in my Beck Suby and my mechanic asked if I felt all the Subaru Legacy owners were doing all that and getting over 300K miles on their cars.  I am now running 87 octane and I haven't noticed a difference.  Now I drive my car a lot, so it sitting isn't an issue.  

@gg1 posted:

FWIW, I was running mid grade in my Beck Suby and my mechanic asked if I felt all the Subaru Legacy owners were doing all that and getting over 300K miles on their cars.  I am now running 87 octane and I haven't noticed a difference.  Now I drive my car a lot, so it sitting isn't an issue.  

Carey uses stock 2007 engines in his cars with stock ECUs. I think he may be using some other years now maybe 2008. My car is a Vintage Motorcar with an Outfront engine. The engine has high performance heads using a higher compression then the stock Subaru engine.  It has claimed 230 hp which I think is more like 190-200 hp. But much higher than the claimed 165-175 stock Subaru engines that Carey used.  My car can get higher performance from premium because it has high compression.  Obviously it uses an aftermarket programmable ECU as apposed to the stock ECU.  If I had a Beck I would never use anything but 87 octane regular. I was originally going to build my Beck Conv D with a Subaru. Carey agreed to use an Outfront with an aftermarket ECU but I could sense he was a little uncomfortable. I think it’s always a mistake pushing someone out of their comfort zone. One of the reasons I went with the type 4. I’ll get my 180-190 hp with the 2.65 L type 4.
Outfront is now building a stroker 2.6 L Subaru which is supposed to be a real beast but of course requires an aftermarket ECU. Beck has the car I want. And I think I’ll be real happy with a Pat Downs type 4. And that car will definitely get the no ETOH gas.

@550 Phil posted:

B3EFFEEE-5E97-4846-A640-EEAF0E0B0ACF

It's that 90 octane "Ethanol Free 91" Exxon is (not) proud to call their own.

Maybe it's just me, but if they can't get the octane right in the name, I'd wonder about the "Ethanol Free" part too.

If you wanna' run E-free gas, I'd find a station with some legit E-free 93 (that's actually 93 octane). If you are running higher than normal compression, it's the octane number that would concern me a lot more than the ethanol content.

Does that aftermarket ECU utilize knock sensors?

Last edited by Stan Galat

Only station in Charlottesville Va that offers Ethanol free. Car was near empty when I filled it up and I drove about 1/4 of a tank. No perceived difference in performance. Obviously many reasons why I shouldn’t be concerned about ethanol in a Suby car. Not much difference in price between this gas and 93 octane ethanol 10 gas. Think I’ll try it for a while. It said “use in recreational vehicles only”. I kind of like that.

https://www.pure-gas.org/maps/VA  shows 5 stations in Charlottesville with E-free gas. There are a few more outside of town too. Looks like the two Royal Marts in Waynesboro and Ashley's Market in Greenfield carry 93.

This might not be 100% accurate though. You'll just have to drive on out there, in your car, and check it out for yourself. That would be terrible.

Last edited by Carlos G
@IaM-Ray posted:

Yes there is a knock sensor on the crankshaft end it is easily seen and backs off the ECU timing. ASAIF, as mine got loose and when I got the engine looked at they found it was loose a bit.

I love you Ray, but what you have is irrelevant to what Phil has. You have a stock EJ25 with a Subaru ECU. He's got a modified EJ25 with an aftermarket ECU.

Most aftermarket ECUs use the knock sensors, but I'd want to know before I dropped octane - but as I said above, it's the octane number that would concern me a lot more than the ethanol content.

I run E10 93 in my carbureted car. Tune for it, and it works great. If I need to rebuild the carbs every few years, I need to rebuild the carbs every few years. With an EFI car, I wouldn't ever give it a second thought.

There are a thousand things more important than corn squeezins in the fuel.

The Stinger has no knock sensor input.  It's best to think of the stand alone FI units like electronic carbs and distributors in one unit.  Just like with carbs and dizzy, folks with ECUs typically tune the motor to run whatever fuel and octane rating they plan to run day to day.  Some units have a side benefit of storing, or being able to quickly load, a second tune for different circumstances. Run your 87 octane tune for road work and cruises, then load your E85 100 octane map for a track day.  MAP sensors and Lambda circuits can do a certain amount of on the fly adjustments to compensate for elevation and air density changes better than carbs, but the concept is esentially no different than sellecting the right jets and emulsion tubes and having the right curve on your dizzy.

While we're here I haven't heard anyone remind us that a teaspoon of 87 octane gas has no more energy stored in it than a teaspoon of 100 octane gas. In fact the 100 octane is harder to ignite, but THAT is what allows the tuner to add ignition advance, and use aggressive mixtures, plus a builder can add higher compression and the motor won't knock.  These are the things that add the power, not the energy content of the fuel.  An exteme example is E85 which actually has less energy than 87 octane pure gas, but the high ethanol content makes it highly knock resistant and also cools the intake charge. That allows you to max out the practical fuel and ignition advance maps and make a lot more power. The trade off (besides the effects of running a mostly alcohol fuel noted in posts above) is that the 30 mpg you were getting on 87 with no ethanol is now 16 mpg because it has so much less energy density.

Modern production cars use knocks senors to detect the impending detonation from moment to moment to compensate for fuel quality, temperature, elevation, etc.  Flex fuel cars add fuel line sensors to detect ethanol levels to add to the calculations. Which is all pretty cool stuff.

But for most us I say follow Stan's advice and tune whatever you have (carbs, speeduino, stinger, etc.) for whatever you plan to do, fueled with whatever you can reliably get in the tank.  The rest is just maintenance.  Many of us love to tear down and rebuild a pair of carbs. It can be pretty darn satisfying. Others get their groove on tweaking a fuel and ignition map on their laptop. Either way it leads to a pant-load of fun in the doing and the driving! So let us do us!

Fun side story (yep, I'm gonna thread drift myself!).  Back in my motorcycle racing days I built a sound of singles racer. It was an '88 Yamaha 250 GP race frame modified to fit a built 710cc Honda single with 11:1 compression.  It was fueled through a Lectron carburetor which is kind of like a flat slide SU without the dash pot. You tuned it primarily by using different profile needles and adjusting the needle height (there was other stuff you could do but that was the main thing).  We managed to get 45-ish hp on race gas (E85 wasn't around then).  One of the local race groups didn't have any fuel restrictions, so me being me, I decided that we should try running alcohol fuel like some of my . We got almost 70 hp on one pull on the dyno with alcohol, but dialed it back because it scared us. Had to use a sharpening stone to custom profile a needle, and I ran out of ignition advance in the electronic ignition,  so I'm confident we could have gotten more. I did not race it that way in the end because the tank was so small that it couldn't run full race distance on the alcohol. Ran some practice laps that way though and scared myself silly. Took a whole day and half the night to wipe the grin off.  Cool part of the Lectron was that changing the slide needle was pretty much like changing the fuel map and just as fast.

We often had steaks after the races cooked in the pits. While I like the sound of some of the recipes above, I found that a light dusting of twostroke smoke added a certain piquant quality.

^ That. Every last work of that. @JMM (Michael) - you sir, are the man.

There's no "miracle rocket juice" - there's just fuel. Build and tune to utilize the fuel you'll use, and you'll have no insurmountable issues.

Building an air-cooled engine to run on E10 allows a slightly high compression ratio (just a bit, but it's there) because of the charge-cooling tendencies of the ethanol. Whether or not it's worth the corroded floats, and disintegrated o-rings is a matter for discussion, but the blanket "ethanol is bad" threads that come down the pipe every 6 months or so are always a bit frustrating to me. If you are struggling with pre-ignition and hot running and are not running E10, switching to it just might take care of some of the problem.

Guys running E85 get away with crazy compression ratios, ignition curves, etc. - but they build and tune for it.

To continue to bang the same drum over and over - it's the octane number that would concern me a lot more than the ethanol content.

While we're here I haven't heard anyone remind us that a teaspoon of 87 octane gas has no more energy stored in it than a teaspoon of 100 octane gas. In fact the 100 octane is harder to ignite, but THAT is what allows the tuner to add ignition advance, and use aggressive mixtures, plus a builder can add higher compression and the motor won't knock.  These are the things that add the power, not the energy content of the fuel.  

... and these are the things everybody just skips over.

If you build a Gene Berg Approved 7:1 compression ratio engine, running 93 octane gets you less than nothing. Running E-free gas might get you a teensy bit more than E10 (because there's more energy in the fuel), but I'd bet a popsicle it'd never be enough to notice on a butt-dyno. The advantage to E-free gas is that it is less hygroscopic and corrosive - full stop. This makes it "better" (if not rebuilding carbs so often is an important consideration) in a carbureted engine, but makes almost no difference in an EFI engine.

More power from any 4-stroke (cycle) engine comes as a result of optimizing one of the "cycles": "suck, squeeze, bang, blow" (intake, compression, power, exhaust) . Better flowing heads allow better cylinder filling (and cylinder evacuation to a lesser extent) - better "suck". Better ignition timing and spark, along with a well designed combustion chamber (again with the heads) provide a more complete ignition cycle - a better "bang". A better exhaust with some extraction occurring (because of the Bernoulli effect) provides better cylinder scavenging - a better "blow".

It's during the compression ("squeeze") and ignition/power ("bang") cycles that the type of fuel comes into play. Obviously, the intake cycle determines the total potential energy of the mixture in the cylinder (by dint of how effectively the cylinder was filled) - but it is the compression and ignition/power cycles that determine how much of that potential is converted to kinetic energy - how much power contained in the fuel is actually released. ICE 4-strokes are notoriously bad at releasing the potential energy entrained in the fuel. Converting as much of the potential energy in the fuel into kinetic energy at the wheels as possible is how an engine is optimized.

Having more potential (higher total energy content in E-free vs. E10 gas) energy means nothing if it is not effectively converted to actual (kinetic) energy - more commonly referred to as power.

Better cylinder filling in the intake cycle and more compression (in the "squeeze" cycle) is the magic elixir here - the more mixture you can compress, the more energy will be released once that mixture ignites. More compression leads to a more forceful power ("bang") cycle. Every time.

The limitation is in how much you can compress the mixture without having it ignite spontaneously without any external spark. This is uncontrolled ignition - "preignition", as it is called. It's very, very bad. It can (and does!) break important, expensive things deep in the innards of your engine. It blows holes in pistons. It breaks connecting rods. It is to be avoided at all costs.

Thar be dragons thar.

Higher octane fuel is harder to light and provides a resistance to this preignition. Higher compression is free power, but a fuel with a progressively greater resistance to preignition is required as compression is raised. The practical limitation of this on the street is what will work with 93 octane (91 in Kalifornia). Some places have 100+ octane race gas, but running that means never leaving home, which is fine if you are racing or are looking to cruise around your hometown and nothing more (ever).

Running higher compression and higher octane fuel means needing a more powerful spark to ignite it. Remember, higher octane fuel has a greater resistance to preignition, but it also has a higher resistance to controlled ignition by means of the spark plug. That 009/blue coil might not be enough. It is almost certainly not accurate enough to provide a spark at the optimal time every time.

In addition to raising the octane (by nature of being less volatile), the alcohol in E10 cools the incoming mixture (charge) by means of absorbing an enormous amount of heat as it changes state from a liquid to a vapor. This is called the latent heat of evaporation, and it's what makes your A/C work.

This is a very good thing in a hot running air-cooled engine, and it's called "charge cooling". A cooler charge allows more density in the intake cycle, and more complete cylinder filling. This is a really nice bonus afforded by ethanol in fuel.

We have the idea that there are explosions in the cylinder every ignition or power cycle - but hopefully there are not. What we are looking for is a quick controlled burn - a flame front radiating out from the spark-plug across the top of the piston, burning the mixture completely. How well this works is a function of combustion chamber design, and this is what makes Pat Downs an order of magnitude smarter than Stan Galat.  A good head porter understands combustion chamber design.

If the burn is incomplete, there is a loss of power. When it is uncontrolled, there is the potential for catastrophic damage. In extreme instances, higher octane fuel in a low compression engine with poorly designed chambers will not completely burn the mixture (charge), which means there is power lost. In every instance, running lower octane fuel in a high compression engine is an invitation to catastrophe.

Modern turbocharged high-compression engines designed to run 87 octane fuel are able to do it by means of really great cylinder head design, variable valve timing, super-precise mixture and spark-curve control... and with knock sensors backing everything off if things start getting out of hand.

I bought a 2.7L EcoBoost F150 a couple of weeks ago. It's nearly a miracle, burning 87 octane while running 18 lbs of boost, and making 400 lb/ft of torque at 2000 RPM from an engine not very much bigger than a 2332 Type 1. Such is the state of the art in ICE engines - it's amazing. All I can say is that in addition to some mechanical wizardry, the pointy-heads at FoMoCo are relying pretty heavily on the knock sensors to keep this thing from grenading. It's got a 100k mi powertrain warranty, so they must be pretty confident. I'd be less so if I were sending such a device out to be used by the great unwashed.

The holy grail is running the lowest octane you can with the setup you've got. It's also really dangerous, and if your builder doesn't have the resources of Ford Motor Company, I'd err on the side of caution. Nothing is gained by running higher octane fuel in an engine not built with higher compression to utilize it, but absolutely everything can be lost by running too-low octane in a high-compression engine with no knock sensors.

I have no idea what is needed in an EJ25 with bumped up compression, bigger cams, and a non-stock ECU (which doesn't utilize a knock sensor), but I'd rather be safe than sorry. E10 93 is available everywhere besides the mountain west and the left coast.

You do you, @550 Phil, but I'd stick with what was working.

Last edited by Stan Galat

Thanks especially to Danny and Michael. I'd have bet money I don't have that a Stinger ECU has provisions for the stock knock sensors, given that nearly every single possible engine it might be asked to control comes with said sensors standard, and would likely need them more than ever in such a custom "hot-rod" type application.

Alas. Nope.

The results of this omission are as predictable as they are stupid.

No wonder Carey doesn't like using them.

There is no need for a knock sensor, unless you're obsessed with running slightly past the ragged edge of a perfect tune. Why ask for a nanny to rescue your engine? Too many people rely on too many automatic safety devices these days. You don't HAVE to be one of them.

Pulling the timing back 2-3 degrees is all it takes. In an aircooled car, you can really hear knock easily, believe me, I know this from personal experience. I haven't heard it yet with EFI, but I did with carbs when I was searching for the max spark advance curve. I copied the exact same curve with my EFI, and it runs very well. I just need to tweak the too rich and slight lean areas.

In a watercooled car, the water jacket muffles the knock somewhat.

As far as Phil is concerned, I'd run 93 octane 10% ethanol and forget about it. This is exactly what I said way up top. Outfront tuned it, it runs FANTASTIC, I've driven it.

Stop the nonsense.

I absolutely love what JMM(Michael) wrote above. The exception for me is with EFI you can tune cold start, idle air, warmup curve, voltage compensation for injector open time, barometric pressure etc. Plus with EFI I have 4 48mm holes for air to get in unfettered rather than 4 36mm holes. As Stan says: "More is more."

Once warm, I agree, carbs and EFI tuning is almost the same thing. There is just a finer control of fuel with EFI other than idle, main, and air jets.

@edsnova Carey doesn't like using aftermarket ECUs because it is a huge PIA to tune each car and send it off to a customer. It is smart business for him to use factory ECUs. Reliability, and a mechanic/user can plug in any OBD reader and fix them.

Makes sense to me when your cars go out all around the world and are often used by non-wrenching clients.

Last edited by DannyP
@550 Phil posted:

Good advice. Maybe I run the 93 10 fuel when I’m driving the car more often and put the 91 0 Etoh fuel in the winter when I’m not driving it as much. And yes my car was one of the last Outfront Subys to get a stinger ECU.

This post leads me to think you're mainly concerned about the hygroscopic characteristics of E10. If this is correct, I'd recommend just putting a can of Sta-Bil in the tank before winter.

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