I put Stabil in Bridget (EJ22 with stock ECU) as well.
@Stan Galat posted:... and these are the things everybody just skips over.
If you build a Gene Berg Approved 7:1 compression ratio engine, running 93 octane gets you less than nothing. Running E-free gas might get you a teensy bit more than E10 (because there's more energy in the fuel), but I'd bet a popsicle it'd never be enough to notice on a butt-dyno.
@Stan Galat Butt-dynos are calibrated to react to racing stripes, straight pipes, and blondes. They are only accurate if those are your only tuning tools.
@edsnova I totally get why Carey doesn't go that route. It makes no sense whatsoever. It doesn't really make sense for me either, truth be told.
I also get why people with Stingers, etc blow up engines. They're the same reasons folks blow up carberated engines: poor tuning choices coupled with (or because of) unrealistic expectations and bad maintenance. And ignorance, ignorance has blown up a lot of engines. I know that the final tune on mine will be done on a dyno and the goal is a safe, reliable, tune. I'm leaving those other 5-15 ponies on the table. I will still be able to get in trouble if I want, but I know what happens if I tread too close to the line. I'd have the melted pistons to document the extent of my own previous ignorance induced failures if my wife hadn't made me throw them out when we moved cross country. I also know I have a learning curve as flat as a park bench, so I want something that I can mess with later...and I'll mess with it later.
This in no way and endorsement of any product or setup, but MegaSquirt pretty much started the aftermarket ECU for EFI and crank-fire back in the early part of the millennium. It was an open-source solder-your-own erector-set kind of deal until DIY Autotune (who are the big sellers of MegaSquirt) developed a "kit" with all of the soldering on the hardware side already done.
I've got no information of any kind on the Stinger, or any other stand-alone ECU, and I know just enough about this to be dangerous.
Indeed, I'd never heard of Speeduino until I'd already bought a DIY Autotune module (MicroSquirt, which is like MegaSquirt-lite, in a potted and sealed weathertight enclosure) from Mario Velotta. After @Michael Pickett introduced us to Speeduino, and @DannyP jumped in I began to wonder if I should follow their lead, but I've already got a module which is perfectly adequate for what I want to do with it.
By way of a PSA (again, I'm not advocating for or against anything) MegaSquirt does support knock sensors. Microsquirt (which I'll be using eventually) does not, unless you get an add-on module (I won't).
Most guys familiar with ACVW EFI/crank-fire say that the Type 1 is just too noisy for a knock sensor to actually work - too much background noise. This worries me a bit for the following reason.
I'm struggling more and more to be able to hear anything... but especially to differentiate the noise of preignition in my car. Hearing aids in an open car are useless - the wind noise is intolerable. No hearing aids means most sounds are as if through a pillow. Preignition is a distinct sound (like a woodpecker is inside your engine), but even that is starting to fall out of the range of being sure I'm (not) hearing it. I can't rely on anybody in my family to hear the nuances, but I don't trust myself to be able to hear it anymore.
If I had a Spyder with an EJ25, I don't know that I'd trust my hearing enough to catch preignition if it was occasionally happening. I'd trust the Outfront tune on the ECU in the car with the gas they recommend, but if I was bent on running a lower octane fuel, I'd want that "electronic nanny to rescue my engine", because I doubt I could hear it.
Of the 5 senses, I always assumed hearing would be pretty far down on the list of importance. I'm belatedly figuring out that it's at least number 3 and maybe number 2 on the "ones that are nice to keep" list.
Pity I figured it out too late to protect it, even a little. I've always like loud things - a lot. And now, the piper is being paid.
@JMM (Michael) posted:Butt-dynos are calibrated to react to racing stripes, straight pipes, and blondes. They are only accurate if those are your only tuning tools.
I agree with that 100%. I would point out that it's the only tool that 99.9% of the people driving cars in a sporting manner ever use.
I wish I had access to a nice Stuska crank dyno, but I don't. I'll have to rely on my A:F meter and my ever-expanding butt for the information I need.
As a binaural wearer I sympathize with you Stan it really is no fun to be missing the colour of sound.
As to the Stinger my guy have abandoned the Stinger and gone full Atom years ago, they can do whatever they want with more precision they say and have even done someone's spyder but they do all sorts of subie track, racing etc etc. Stefan the tuner has a full booked schedule for subie tunes etc. It asked me if I wanted it tuned but I refused as a perfect running 2.5 would give me what difference in hp? 5or 7 nothing else but I nearly did it when my engine had issues at one point since we could not narrow it down to find it. Once we did find it I just passed on dropping money for the same hp.
IM never went with stock ecu except for custom clients that wanted more esoteric engines but other than that a stock ECU was used.
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Some of we gentleman drivers would rather tune for smoove.
I left some ponies in the barn in the design of the motor, and am OK with that. Longevity, cool-running, daily tractability, civil exhaust note, ample ground clearance, and reasonable cost took precedence over tire smoking. The result still has half again more beans than the original and probably enough to test the limits of the stock suspension.
But the type 1 needs some coaxing and some vigilance to be kept running smoove, and after enough time at the helm you become acutely aware of when it's not. The sound of left/right imbalance (or just one jug lagging) is easily heard, and you can even feel it through the throttle cable — another little-appreciated failing of drive-by-wire modernity.
Once you do manage to get all four pulling evenly, you never forget that sound or feeling, and that is a sufficient ECU for some of us. Gas mileage also bumps up half a point or so when you're master of your four-cylinder domain, so that's another metric to watch.
Paying attention to what the car is telling you is a large part of vintage motoring. Before there were ECU's, there were ears and twitch reflexes and, OK, call them butt dynos. None were as precise as a graph on a computer screen or an A/F readout, but they were a lot more involving.
So I guess I will be content to leave some ponies behind, as long as I get to do the leaving.
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@Sacto Mitch, exactly!
I haven’t read this thread in it’s entirety yet but I want throw a few things out to see what sticks.
About 2 years ago I had a 2180 built. I kept the compression at about 8.5:1 and ran a set of 44 Webbers. I figured I was in the 135hp range with that set up. I kept the compression low for one reason: about a year ago I added a turbo with10# boost.
It was then I found getting those pesky 44 carbs to keep me happy was taxing, to say the least.
A few months ago I made the jump to EFI using a Megasquirt system and felt the need to go to a crank-fire ignition at the same time.
Now my point: when all was said and done I spent maybe 45 minutes tuning the engine to run where it was happy and saved the data. I plan to do this again in the “cool” months and whenever else I feel the compulsion. I managed to squeeze out a ridiculous amount of power in well under an hour that would have taken hours or days with jetting, timing, etc. I can actually set a preferred AFR and just let the system learn itself.
One more thing: I went to the WCC and averaged 24 mpg and had immediate response all through the throttle. I didn’t believe my eyes with the mpg but I did the math again and again to confirm it.
The software is “TunerStudio” and I downloaded it for a few bucks. Amazingly easy to use and capable of all manner of things I am only beginning to learn.
I am a believer, albeit one with a fairly lighter wallet.
Holy cow, @TheMayoMachine has a blown, injected, crankfire 2180.
You sir, are the man.
I second that.
@Stan Galat and @edsnova : thank you, Gents!
I subscribe the “go big or go home” philosophy. I wanted to go with a turbo from the start so everything was done in stages. Eventually I’ll get around to posting specs and photos of the build. I didn’t dyno during the build so all the hp numbers are estimates. I have a line on a dyno locally that I plan to use to get some actual rear wheel power numbers sooner than later. Before I do that I want to squeeze out every bit of power.
In a word: it is ridiculous!
Several years ago I caught the Madness from @Robert M who told me that dollar for dollar an air cooled engine was probably the most expensive per hp to build. He wasn’t wrong! I must say, though, that pushing well into the 200hp range in an incredibly light fiberglass car is quite the rush!
@TheMayoMachine, congratulations on a great build! That thing must fly. If you decide to decide to do some fine tuning, MegaLogViewer HD is the ticket (you probably knew that).
Shoot me a PM if you want to talk anything over. I had about 9 years of building and running a Megasquirted, turbocharged, air-cooled engine.
Cheers!