EV conversion of Beck Spyder

Welcome to the Madness, Peter.  Yeah, you're right that most folks here wouldn't follow the same path you did, bit it's a big tent.  If you enjoy it, then it's great.  I'm curious as to where you mounted the batteries, but I could probably find that out by checking out the link you provided.  I'll do that now.

Thanks, Lane. Appreciate it.

There are two Tesla battery packs up front, right where the fuel tank used to be. The weight is roughly equivalent to the original fuel tank, full. And then there are three Tesla battery packs and a Netgain Hyper9 electric motor behind the firewall, where the Subie engine used to be. And that ends up weighing roughly the same as the engine.

No change to the suspension, except for upgraded shocks. And the only other meaningful change to the drivetrain is somewhat taller gearing in the gearbox, accounting for the longer/flatter torque curve.

Just looked at the website - looks like a very clean, well thought out conversion on a beautiful car.  Enjoy!!

Welcome, Peter! Looks like it's going to be lots of fun. Where will you usually charge it?

Thanks, Michael!

I've only charged it at home, though I want to try a public charger at some point. There are a few at the library parking lot about a mile from home.

Peter

Very nicely done. Love to see a video of you driving it now that it is all back together.

Very nice job, Peter.  And clean, too.  

There was someone else on here a few years ago who converted his Speedster.  IIRC, he lives on one of the islands west of Seattle (I may be wrong - He may be up around Vancouver).  

Sounds like Hyper 9 would have been a good place to buy stock in years ago.  Now, everybody’s using them!

I’ve a nephew in Raleigh, NC, who’s in the middle of converting a ‘73 Ford Bronco to electric.  I’ll have to ask what he’s using for a motor(s)

Well done, Peter!

That's a really clean build, Peter. I had a notion of doing a similar conversion to my MG replica when I bought it 13 years ago. But the budget didn't pencil out back then and I was looking at a practical range in the double digits, so I ended up putting a Subie in it.

Would you mind sharing your budget for this conversion?

@Gordon Nichols posted:

I’ve a nephew in Raleigh, NC, who’s in the middle of converting a ‘73 Ford Bronco to electric.  I’ll have to ask what he’s using for a motor(s)

I’m really happy he’s hotrodding, but I just died a little inside.

Jeeps and Broncos are best (only useful?) off-road, the main difference being there are approximately 1,957,000 Jeeps for every early Bronco that hasn’t returned to its base elements. Restoration-worthy Broncos are like shards of the true cross. JC Whitney used to sell FG CJ5 tubs, and I think (if memory serves) Broncos as well. I’ll just pretend this project is one of those.

I’ll concede that there are limited applications where a BEV can make some sense (none that I’ve personally experienced, but I know not everybody lives in Buttscratch, Flyover, USA)… but like a self-eating burrito, a BEV in an off-road vehicle seems (to this hick anyway) like a solution begging a question. I wanna’ know how he’s planning to get out of the woods in a bad situation (and isn’t that the entire point of off-roading? To get into and out of crazy situations). A diesel generator in the back?

Regardless, I’d have zero interest in crossing a chest-deep stream in something running on batteries and software, but that’s just me. If I’m just going to the DQ for a $34 Blizzard, I’ll take my flashy polished aluminum cruiser bike to save the planet.

But as always, he should definitely do him.

@PeterAtLunaBeach-

In no way did I want the above editorial to throw shade on your project. A replica (only used locally not for long distance trips) is a BEV application I can at least put my head around. You’re not painting a mustache on the Mona Lisa by destroying something irreplaceable.

It’s not my jam, but I’m not a tech guy either.

I don’t assume you are trying to go mudding or rock-climbing with your Spyder, so it isn’t an application that throws up a thousand flags. The range sounds adequate for local use, assuming it’s realistic. It should be, given that you are only going to use the car in fair weather situation, and you don’t need to drive heating or air-conditioning.

It’s cool that your wife can and wants to drive the car, I have created enough of a Frankenstein monster with mine that my wife can’t and won’t operate it. I’ve tried to compensate by making the passenger accommodations as comfortable as possible for her.

Thanks for sharing with the class. I’m not going to do anything like this, but I like peeking over the fence into somebody else’s garden.

You do you.

@Gordon Nichols posted:

I’ve a nephew in Raleigh, NC, who’s in the middle of converting a ‘73 Ford Bronco to electric.  I’ll have to ask what he’s using for a motor(s)

Well done, Peter!

@Stan Galat posted:

I’m really happy he’s hotrodding, but I just died a little inside.

But as always, he should definitely do him.

The very first thing I thought of when I read that was, "Why?"

A Good condition '73 sells for about $30K, an Excellent condition '73 sells for about $50K, and a Perfect condition'73 sells for about $165K. Not to mention that there are fewer and fewer of these gems on the road. So hopefully this was something that was destined for the scrap pile and the only thing that could be done to save it was an EV conversion because there was no motor, no transmission, no axles, no anything original left to restore.

An EV conversion on a Spyder or a Speedster for some is a great idea. Its a car that isn't USUALLY driven far and it USUALLY driven often. I know some drive their cars very long distances and some drive them every day. This isn't about those cars. With all the problems experienced with the Suby doing the conversion made sense for Peter.

@PeterAtLunaBeach- Ok, I'm imagining a Spyder parked in front of the local library in the green car space,  hooked up to the electric charger, everybody looking at it and the comments coming out of peoples' mouths- can't help but grin just a little...

And @Stan Galat- Yeah, as an offroader/4wheeler with some years (on/off for 38? 40?) under my belt and having run into circumstances a couple of times where almost every drop of fuel (including the contents of the extra container in the back) was needed to get back to civilization, I agree with you and don't think the technology is there yet to make a true offroad/overland machine really viable.  With extra gas on board it's easy to top up someone who's just misjudged the day or hadn't taken account of a "what if this happens" scenario- all the extra double A's all of us in the group are carrying aren't gonna cut it.  Anybody remember the scene in Battlestar Gallactica (TV show) where the 2 fighter pilots were stuck on Earth, both craft drained of energy and they were able to tap into the local power grid through the overhead wires?  When we can pull THAT off out in the middle of nowhere, then we'll be on to something...

Great discussion.

On cost: I don't have the exact bottom line, though I have all the invoices (Moment Motors invoiced me about monthly). I plan to add it all up soon. But for sure the conversion cost more than the car itself. So financially it's hard to make a case that it makes sense. I think you'd have to rationalize something like this as a geeky fun project that at the end gives you a (reasonably) practical car.

On that '73 Ford Bronco conversion: The first company I contacted about converting my Spyder was Kindred Motorworks. They declined the project because they were pivoting to doing more "mass production". Basically, they have their own car platform, fully modern in every way except for the wheelbase being late-60s/early-70s style. Then, they source broken down classics, take off their original bodies, restore them, and put them on their platform. They do a 73 Bronco. See http://kindredmotorworks.com.

Besides the Bronco, they also do a classic VW bus and a Chevy 3100 stepside pickup. Their first models are available next year. I think they do fantastic work, real artisanship, but I worry that there is no market for the extremely high prices they are charging. We'll see.

On the general controversy about doing these conversions, I have two comments. First, yes I definitely miss the roar of the ICE Subie engine. It sounded badass, for lack of a better word. With the EV, there is a very cool electric-whine, and then at speed *you hear everything else*, such as the rear clam shell rattling a tiny bit, the transaxle whining at around 2500rpm, and sometimes the slight creak of the flexing torsion bar. It's all cool, but few things in life sound better than a loud exhaust roar and the whooshing/sucking sound of an air intake.

So, the nerd in me just loves the uniqueness and practicality and technology of this conversion, but the car nut in me also still appreciates that something is also lacking. My conclusion is that neither option is better than the other, they are just different wrt benefits.

Second, I personally would not take a true non-replica classic and do this. A real Spyder is a true classic, of course. Does a '73 Ford Bronco also count? I'm personally not able to separate the hype around Broncos from the reality, but I think it's in a gray area.

@PeterAtLunaBeach

Pete, THAT is a very cool project! A Spyder that has CRAZY fast 0-60 times...woo hoo! Would love to see a video of you driving that bad boy around town and surprising some  folks at a stoplight.

.

@PeterAtLunaBeach posted:

.

...I don't have the exact bottom line, though I have all the invoices...

... I plan to add it all up soon...

... financially it's hard to make a case that it makes sense. I think you'd have to rationalize something like this as a geeky fun project that at the end gives you a (reasonably) practical car...

...So, the nerd in me just loves the uniqueness and practicality and technology of this conversion.

...I definitely miss the roar of the ICE Subie engine. It sounded badass, for lack of a better word...

...I'm personally not able to separate the hype around Broncos from the reality...

.

I certainly hope this is reaching you in time, Peter.

Whatever you do, absolutely do NOT 'add it all up'. At this point, after all the checks have been written, adding it all up serves no useful purpose whatsoever. It can only adversely affect your mental and physical health, and degrade your self esteem. It will discourage you from entertaining other worthwhile projects like this in the future.

You've done what you've done. You've placated the inner nerd. You would probably do the same all over again if presented with the same options. So, put the cost out of your mind and move on.

Secondly, 'badass' is a useful, completely serviceable word. In some contexts, possibly this one, it is the perfect word. A bit too Anglo-Saxon for some tastes, perhaps, but you shouldn't let that bother you at all.

Lastly, about the Ford Bronco, we are in complete agreement.

I have driven an EV  1958  VW bug   owned by EV West ,  the one thing you notice driving  it is how loud the transmission  is , this was a few years ago and they were still  using a stock 4 speed ,  It was fun driving down PCH  but it was really not for me ,

EV West have some interesting YouTube videos

Thanks, @Sacto Mitch. Yes, I would do it all over again. And actually I'm trying hard to resist the temptation to find a early/mid 70's pickup truck with a "just right" patina, to do another conversion! Tinkering with cars is a disease, I'm sure you'll all agree. I know a couple of people who are also thinking about doing Factory Five kit cars as EVs.

Yes, @imperial, at least on my car I think it's the transaxle itself, not the transmission. At around 2500rpm there is a whine that sounds surprisingly loud that I never knew was there when the old Subie engine drowned everything out.

@Sacto Mitch posted:

Whatever you do, absolutely do NOT 'add it all up'. At this point, after all the checks have been written, adding it all up serves no useful purpose whatsoever. It can only adversely affect your mental and physical health, and degrade your self esteem. It will discourage you from entertaining other worthwhile projects like this in the future.

It's a hobby. Hobbies are for mental health. How much would comparable mental healthcare cost?

Cars are cheaper than psychologists. Still, not adding it up takes the sting out of it.

@PeterAtLunaBeach posted:

Yes, @imperial, at least on my car I think it's the transaxle itself, not the transmission. At around 2500rpm there is a whine that sounds surprisingly loud that I never knew was there when the old Subie engine drowned everything out.

I'm trying to determine what you meant here. Did you mean ring and pinion, transmission, or both? Because that is EXACTLY what a transmission(edit:transaxle!) is, both combined into one unit with one gear oil supply for the whole mess.

Sometimes, aftermarket ring and pinions are louder if they aren't set up properly. The OE VW stuff is all pretty quiet, ring and pinion AND forward gears. Reverse is straight cut and LOUD. The Weddle aftermarket 1-4 gears can be REALLY loud in my experience. I swapped a Weddle 1.35 for a VW 1.32 3rd gear for a friend. The trans went from intolerable to no noise at all. I had that 3rd welded to the synchro hub too(buddy with a Tig).

This was just an old 58 bug ,  full synco transmission added to it ......

I am sure it was both the Ring and pinion  and the gears , you would probably never notice it in an aircooled bug with the fan noise and exhaust noise ,

Thats one of the problems of converting an old car to EV , you hear things you never did before

Hmm, I'm not sure. The reason I don't think it's the gears is that I *think* I get the same pitch whine at the same road speed, regardless of what gear I'm in. But I'll have to pay attention to that more closely to be certain.

Just to be pedantic, when Danny said "Because that is EXACTLY what a transmission is, both combined into one unit with one gear oil supply for the whole mess," I believe he meant transaxle.

Correct, my pedantic friend. In my defense, I was pretty tired when I wrote that.

@PeterAtLunaBeach posted:

Great discussion.

On cost: I don't have the exact bottom line, though I have all the invoices (Moment Motors invoiced me about monthly). I plan to add it all up soon. But for sure the conversion cost more than the car itself. So financially it's hard to make a case that it makes sense. I think you'd have to rationalize something like this as a geeky fun project that at the end gives you a (reasonably) practical car.

On that '73 Ford Bronco conversion: The first company I contacted about converting my Spyder was Kindred Motorworks. They declined the project because they were pivoting to doing more "mass production". Basically, they have their own car platform, fully modern in every way except for the wheelbase being late-60s/early-70s style. Then, they source broken down classics, take off their original bodies, restore them, and put them on their platform. They do a 73 Bronco. See http://kindredmotorworks.com.

Besides the Bronco, they also do a classic VW bus and a Chevy 3100 stepside pickup. Their first models are available next year. I think they do fantastic work, real artisanship, but I worry that there is no market for the extremely high prices they are charging. We'll see.

On the general controversy about doing these conversions, I have two comments. First, yes I definitely miss the roar of the ICE Subie engine. It sounded badass, for lack of a better word. With the EV, there is a very cool electric-whine, and then at speed *you hear everything else*, such as the rear clam shell rattling a tiny bit, the transaxle whining at around 2500rpm, and sometimes the slight creak of the flexing torsion bar. It's all cool, but few things in life sound better than a loud exhaust roar and the whooshing/sucking sound of an air intake.

So, the nerd in me just loves the uniqueness and practicality and technology of this conversion, but the car nut in me also still appreciates that something is also lacking. My conclusion is that neither option is better than the other, they are just different wrt benefits.

Second, I personally would not take a true non-replica classic and do this. A real Spyder is a true classic, of course. Does a '73 Ford Bronco also count? I'm personally not able to separate the hype around Broncos from the reality, but I think it's in a gray area.

An interesting comment on their site on repairs that we should adopt in my opinion as a warning or advisory to new replica owners.         Vintage Elements ... I like that.

I'd love to have an electrified speedster, but the price point isn't good enough to make me drop the type 1 with all of the "vintage elements" that I also love.

Our 2022 Nissan LEAF S-Plus has a range of 250 miles and we paid $24,900 for it new after the rebate. That's Marianne's choice of vehicles when she's driving. I like it when it's rainy or there's something big to carry (roof racks). That's pretty affordable for a useful, new vehicle.

I doubt the price point for electrifying the speedster will make it worth it to me during the next 10 years or so (when my kid will probably persuade me to quit driving).

Just read here in West Virginia, there is now a $200 surcharge on top of the annual tag / registration fees. They still need the fuel tax funds anyway they can collect it.

About time a state wised up!  Surprised feds don't add excise tax on electrical vehicles (ok not surprised since many vehicles still have a $7500 tax benefit).  Both federal and state gas excise taxes (many states are around 50 cents per gallon --- argh, 64 cents in Calif!)  Diesel is often taxed even higher (88 cents in some) - poor truckers (and us who pay more for goods being transported). At $200 up front, that's only tax on 400 gallons (in those high-tax states).  I see working people filling up with 30 gallons per week so they pay $780 gas tax per year - ouch!  Even 10 gallons a week would be $260/year.

Have you seen how bad roads and bridges are in most states --- and how much road repair costs?

@WOLFGANG posted:

About time a state wised up!  Surprised feds don't add excise tax on electrical vehicles (ok not surprised since many vehicles still have a $7500 tax benefit).  Both federal and state gas excise taxes (many states are around 50 cents per gallon --- argh, 64 cents in Calif!)  Diesel is often taxed even higher (88 cents in some) - poor truckers (and us who pay more for goods being transported). At $200 up front, that's only tax on 400 gallons (in those high-tax states).  I see working people filling up with 30 gallons per week so they pay $780 gas tax per year - ouch!  Even 10 gallons a week would be $260/year.

Have you seen how bad roads and bridges are in most states --- and how much road repair costs?

More than 1/2 of the states have an annual tax on EVs to cover the loss of gas tax. Roughly 1/3 of them are Road User Charges (RUCs) that base the tax on miles driven rather than an annual flat rate. In the last 30 years, real world car fuel mileage has risen from 22.9 mpg to 33.3 mpg (see EPA chart below).

Over the same 30 years, pickup truck fuel efficiency has risen from 17.5 mpg to 20 mpg. Over time, the burden of the gas excise tax has shifted to vehicles with lower fuel efficiency. As an aside, vehicles have become heavier over this period which translates to more wear and tear on the roads. EVs won't change that trend.

We probably need to think up a whole new scheme for covering the cost of road infrastructure that applies to all vehicles, EV, hybrids, gas, diesel, hydrogen, etc. Perhaps something that takes into account the vehicle weight and the number of miles traveled each year (although I can already hear you wags saying that will give the hydrogen filled cars an unfair advantage).

In any event, here's the EPA data:

Texas just approved of an EV tax.  $400 for the 1st year and $200 each year after that.

Washington state still has a near-total sales tax exemption on EVs.

At first, they always give you a great deal to convert you to the new way of thinking or new service then they put the screws to. you like everything…. but I do think that their desire to change who holds the power from oil barons to electrical Barton’s / climate is also there in our society it just would be nice to have the market dictate and not our tax dollars.  

It becomes obvious again that there is no free lunch and you have to pay your way. It’s just that where the payment goes has changed location

So mentioning my new E-Bike here wouldn’t be cool, huh?

I call it “Mellow Yellow”…….  (Quite Nicely…)

Actually Gordon, I think that ebikes really are cool especially those with climb assist.  It has allowed a lot of people to enjoy the outdoors.

My comment on E-Vehicles only concerns force feeding us the koolaid, and it does not taste great.

I am back out on my bicycle these days myself.

I have a new in box 27.5" E Bike motor, rim kit I can't even get $100 for it .....

Marketplace - Electric bike motor kit | Facebook

My thoughts on E-Bikes:

• I resisted this for a very long time, thinking, "I'm in DAMN good shape for someone 70+ and can still keep up (and crush on hills) guys in their 40's-60's".
• But I keep getting older and while I could (last year) still ride with the best of them, my recovery time has gone from hours to days and can sometimes effect my sleep and that's not a good thing (muscle recovery makes me twitch a lot).
• E-Bikes, especially for older cyclists, really level the playing field and those who were once less capable of keeping up with a group can now do so with ease - A great equalizer and esteem builder for less-strong riders - Nobody has to be a "Lance Armstrong" to ride with local groups.
• You don't need an E-Bike that's capable of 40mph (yes, some can do that).  All that's needed is an assist in any gear to share the heavy lifting.  For those who ride infrequently, it allows you to ride a bit longer and ANY exercise is better than no exercise.  An E-Bike that will hold a pace of 12-18mph is fine.
• The fallout from a cycle crash in my 30's has left me with arthritis in my neck, so I can no longer ride a traditional, bent-over-posture road bike and need a more upright posture, like on a commuter bike - Not the most aerodynamic shape, for sure, but it lets me look around easier to see if anyone is going to take me out.  An E-Bike, even the road bike frame I bought with higher handlebar mods, allows me to sit more upright with my head erect so I can minimize vertebrate aggravation and pain AND see those old guys in Buicks bearing down on me.
• It is very important to have a bicycle technician who will listen to what your problems are and work with you to try to overcome them.  I found one who is wonderful and has taken a lot of time to make sure that my new bike fits me AND doesn't aggravate my spinal column.  THAT is priceless.

I've ridden bicycles seriously since I was 17 years old and had to stop last year when my arthritis caught up with me.  9 months of Physical Therapy and Chiropractic have, hopefully, given me back one of the things I love, Bicycling.  This E-Bike is really a big experiment, but one that I hope will give me a few more years in the saddle.  

Besides - How many 80-year-old bicyclists do YOU know?  My years are growing short.

Gordon wrote:                                                                                                                             How many 80-year-old bicyclists do YOU know?  My years are growing short.

.................."Do Not, Let The Old Man In "

@Alan Merklin posted:

Gordon wrote:                                                                                                                             How many 80-year-old bicyclists do YOU know?  My years are growing short.

.................."Do Not, Let The Old Man In "

Alan, I think there is a song there ................ Toby Keith wrote it for Clint Eastwood

@Gordon Nichols posted:

My thoughts on E-Bikes:

• I resisted this for a very long time, thinking, "I'm in DAMN good shape for someone 70+ and can still keep up (and crush on hills) guys in their 40's-60's".
• But I keep getting older and while I could (last year) still ride with the best of them, my recovery time has gone from hours to days and can sometimes effect my sleep and that's not a good thing (muscle recovery makes me twitch a lot).
• E-Bikes, especially for older cyclists, really level the playing field and those who were once less capable of keeping up with a group can now do so with ease - A great equalizer and esteem builder for less-strong riders - Nobody has to be a "Lance Armstrong" to ride with local groups.
• You don't need an E-Bike that's capable of 40mph (yes, some can do that).  All that's needed is an assist in any gear to share the heavy lifting.  For those who ride infrequently, it allows you to ride a bit longer and ANY exercise is better than no exercise.  An E-Bike that will hold a pace of 12-18mph is fine.
• The fallout from a cycle crash in my 30's has left me with arthritis in my neck, so I can no longer ride a traditional, bent-over-posture road bike and need a more upright posture, like on a commuter bike - Not the most aerodynamic shape, for sure, but it lets me look around easier to see if anyone is going to take me out.  An E-Bike, even the road bike frame I bought with higher handlebar mods, allows me to sit more upright with my head erect so I can minimize vertebrate aggravation and pain AND see those old guys in Buicks bearing down on me.
• It is very important to have a bicycle technician who will listen to what your problems are and work with you to try to overcome them.  I found one who is wonderful and has taken a lot of time to make sure that my new bike fits me AND doesn't aggravate my spinal column.  THAT is priceless.

I've ridden bicycles seriously since I was 17 years old and had to stop last year when my arthritis caught up with me.  9 months of Physical Therapy and Chiropractic have, hopefully, given me back one of the things I love, Bicycling.  This E-Bike is really a big experiment, but one that I hope will give me a few more years in the saddle.  

Besides - How many 80-year-old bicyclists do YOU know?  My years are growing short.

Gordon, I'm with you on this one. I rode bikes when I was younger, but the allure of motorcycles grabbed me tight. Now is my 70's with many previously broken bones from my allure, I have to deal with the pain from all the pleasure I received along the way. Just recently I have been looking into E-Bikes to help get out more and maybe help my one bad knee get a bit better. I know I need the exercise and this will be a fun and easy way to enjoy it. Having the assist from an E motor when I have overdone it will also give me pease of mind. I still ride my motorcycle, a BMW K1600GTL, but an E Bike would help this older guy get into shape and enjoy doing it.

I had a BMW 1300 GT 6 cylinder,,,had it a few months and it was too much bike for me(age late 60s) sold it and stuck with my BSA 650 and Norton 850