Exhaust Manifold / Valve Adjustment

It seems that engines over 1776 cc have more elaborate exhaust manifold systems that necessitate loosening and or removing the manifolds to gain access to the valves for adjustment.

I am wondering how much of a hassel the process of valve adjustment is under these circumstances. Although I have owned several VW's I have never adjusted valves on a VW, but I know that a tune-up, which includes valve adjustment, costs around $140.00.

I would appreciate knowing personal experiences about such valve adjsutment issues and knowing if mechanics typically charge more for the adjusting valves when they have to remove the exhaust manifold. Also do they typically change the manifold gaskets each time?

Bill George

Bill,

Exhausts for any Type 1 come in a variety of shapes and sizes besides stock, and they come in these different styles regardless of size of CCs.

I am making an assumption here that you may have the "special" exhaust that Vintage Speedsrers (VS) options on many of their cars,, including 1776cc engines. If that is the case, then yes, the exhaust needs to be "dropped" to gain access to the valves. It is a 15 minute on/off job if those bolts have been on and off before for previous valve adjustments. Some mechanics gripe about it, based on posts I've read here on the forum. But mechanics generally gripe when anything is in the way of their primary objective. Don't let him charge you a high fee for this, 15 minutes book, maybe 20 minutes at the max.

I would ask to observe him to learn how to do this yourself. In our knowledge section there are excellent how tos on valve adjustment. Read them, then watch your mechanic. After that, do them yourself and save a ton of money.

Jim

Bill,

When I was a mechanic 20+ years ago we used to cuss and swear at anything that got in the way of access to the valve covers. If the valves are being adjusted regularly, as they should be, then blocking access to them just doesn't make sense to me. (Jim, it's true we did do a lot of griping. But than again if you were lying on your back ten times a day with oil dripping in your face, you would grip too every time somebody made your job harder. ;0) )

I've seen the pictures posted here of the intricate muffler systems that block access to the valves. While I'm sure they make the car sound and perform better, I wouldn't put one on my car, for the reason that it gets in the way of adjusting the valves. It takes 2 seconds to pop the clip on the valve covers and a half hour at the most to adjust them. If you have to take a muffler or oil cooler off every time you have to adjust your valves you have doubled the time you need to spend under the car. My guess is that it would double your tune-up fee as well.

One problem that we regularly had with taking or losening muffler systems is that exhaust manifold nuts would often corrode and sieze up on the studs. While a little wd-40 will loosen them up, it was still a pain in the but when that happened. Muffler systems just aren't designed to go on and off at every tune-up. You are exposing yourself to a potential exhaust leak everytime you have to do it.

One of the things about these cars that is so great is their mechanical simplicity. The design team at VW thought things out to keep them simple and efficient.

My opinion is don't do it! There are plenty of different muffler sytems out there that don't block the valve covers.

Tony

One thing I did on exhaust manifolds was use brass nuts. They don't rust obviously and seem to hold jsut as well as the steel nuts. Also look nicer, LOL. This was on a big 'ol American V-8 but don't see why you couldn't use brass nuts on a Volks!

Bruce

Great Post Tony, and I agree 100%. My CSP system does flow abeam the covers but was engineered to give access without any dropping, loosening, or other work.

My very best friend in life owns a nice 5 bay shop and has been a great mechanic since we were teens. I think he'd agree with your remarks for sure. Especially about access to parts... I hate changing out altenators and such on new cars, a bitch job. And I love working on cars. I guess that's why I like the T-1 so much, simplicity. Same thing with my retro restored 54 3100 1/2t.... simplicity. The other cars go to the pros.

Jim

Bill, I have the "special" exhaust on my V.S. and I just adjusted the valves this weekend. This was the first time I have adjusted the valves since buying the car. It is not a problem to remove the exhaust. On my car the "special" exhaust is removed aft of the collector (3 bolts/nuts). The only other fasteners are the two nuts that support the mufflers (easily accessed from below). With the removal of this section of the exhaust the heat exchanger and exhaust that is directly attached to the head are left in place and no gasket replacement is needed. It was my first time and took less that 10 min. I would however prefer an adequate capacity exhaust system that exits the rear of the car as the originals did. Any suggestions out there?

Dan,

May I recommend the CSP system? 1.5" with equal heat boxes, allows access to the valves, but flows somewhat similar to the VS Special? (I had a VS system too and found it easy to do valves, just as you described) The really cool thing about the CSP system is it uses dual mufflers, and exits at the stock locations with dual straight pipes. Optional SS system is available. It will wake up your 1776!

They always run ads in the Trends and HVWs. Made in Germany and US Ditributor is CSP USA (german web site in english is: www.customspeedparts.com 1-626-445-0108 Arcadia, CA Pic below shows where they exit. I'm putting a slight S bend in mine to bring it up 1"... well I hope to.

Jim,
Thanks for the info. I assume the fitment is the standard type 1. There is enough clearance to exit under the car without interference or cutting? Cost? Thanks for your help, look forward to meeting you at Knott's.

Dan, Mine fit perfect. I did have to heat an area for a slight bend because of my oil filter set-up/location, but this shouldn't be a problem for you. No cutting, no adjustments. On a stock Beetle the exhaust comes out the stock locations, on a speedster it comes out about an inch (-)below the apron. It looks great as is but I'm tempted to get with my muffler guy and put that slight s in there to raise the straight outs a 1/2" to 3/4".

Price? It isn't cheap. I got mine in heat coated black with SS tips. I think with shipping and all, including heater boxes it was at least 550, maybe 600. I'll check my receipts when I have time. But I took off around 350-375 in CB merged with boxes and a dymomax that hung way low and out. Should have gone straight to the CSP and saved that dough. It's also available in all SS. Look on the web site.

Jim

Good Point Ron. I like your system though, looks better than anything else I've seen on a stroker 2110.

If you're running a hot 2110, or larger, I'd go with a 1 5/8" system. Anything smaller and the CSP system would be perfect, and it looks cool too. I'm one of those guys who has a muffler running along side one valve cover. Not much work to change, but then I realized I've got to adjust the valves to get through our air care, and then adjust them back, so I can actually drive the car. That means muffler off, muffler on, muffler off, and finally, muffler back on.....maybe these side mufflers are not the best solution after all (at least the ones that block the valve cover).
Ron

Ron O: What clearance are you setting your valves at, for the street, on your 2110?

thanks, gn

If I remember correctly, I'm setting them at .006 (stock setting). I
Ron

Gordon,
I have a 2110, a fairly hot street engine, with dual valve springs. I adjust my valves(cold, of course)so that you can just spin the pushrod, say about .001. That's what my engine builder told me to do, most emphatically I might add. You should probably ask the engine builder for spec. for your engine.
Joel

Joel, are you using steel push rods?
Ron

Ron, I'm using 3/8" chromoly pushrods and 8mm chromoly case studs. I think these are essential when you are running reasonably stonger valve springs, which I am. I wouldn't use aluminum pushrods on anything but a bone stock engine. As far as case studs go, it all depends on who you talk to, some swear by Genuine VW studs, but those are also the ones that say low compression is the way to go. I'm running about 8.7 to 1 compression, which isn't exactly low. I have to say, I questioned my engine builder when he told me to adjust the valves that tight, but the engine likes it, so it looks like the guy with 30 yrs. air-cooled experience knows what he's talking about. Hell, I'm an old Ford hotrod guy, this air-cooled stuff is different than a cast iron V8. Every time I do somthing to this car I learn something new. 8 years later and I still feel like I have an enormous amount to learn. But I'm having fun doing it. Joel

Joel and Ron:

I am my engine builder (see "before" picture below), and I asked the question just to see what others are doing.

My 2,110 doesn't have dual valve springs (getting too old to want to keep it rev'd that high, I guess) so I've set them (cold) at .004, expecting the cylinders to "grow" to the proper length for an appropriate hot valve lash. I have steel pushrods, and know what I have for a case (aluminum) and what the expected overall "growth" should be, so I think I'm pretty close, although I haven't yet checked them when hot to be sure. Didn't do the math on it, just used my gut.

Setting them at .001 might be pretty close for my engine (or liking) although I may try it this Spring if a cold .004 doesn't give me a good hot setting - we'll see.

Ron O: What do you have to set them at to pass you Air Quality tests?

Thanks, guys.....gn

Gordon, I'm in the chemical business....don't use that can in the corner of you picture for anything but moisture displacement. Thats what WD-40 was made for. It is not a lubricant. WD stands for water dispersant, it took their chemists 40 attempts to get it right,,,ergo wd-40. The stuff should never be used on metal. It was originally made for a water dispersant for sheeps wool ( in the 50's)when the wool was being transported in the holds of cargo ships from Australia to the US. Some dock worker used it on a squeeky hinge, and it stopped squeeking for about 45 minutes......and the lie began.

That product turns acidic in about 15-20 days after use, and begins to degrade and eat metal. Really bad if used on softer metals like aluminum or bronze. To frame it gently, that product is a item that is a result of clever marketing.....Not a lubricant, not even particularly a rust retardent..... Theres my rant, it kills me that guys keep buying and using that stuff, when it should never be used near anything automotive.....oh it is good for putting on fishing lures, because it has an element of oil in it that hides human scent off of lures..


Gclarke "The vacaville Guy"

Gary: That must be why my dad always called it "Panther Piss".......

You know, we learn the most amazing stuff on this forum. I often wondered why WD-40 seemed to evaporate after a few days and most often I use a silicon-based lube. Mostly use WD-40 for cleaning the grime off of the neoprene-coated handles of my tools - it works well and doesn't eat them up. Never thought about it eating into the metal of the tool, though.....Son-of-a-gun! THAT's why my channel-locks turned darker over time!

No, I didn't use WD-40 to assemble my engine - used good old German assembly lube.....from Tweeks, I think. Back in the 60's - 70's, I used a combination of 10wt oil and STP (as a thickener ) as an assembly lube and it seemed to work pretty well. Some friends still use that stuff. Now I hear that STP is pretty much useless, too. Go figure, but as an oil binder it seemed to work pretty well.......I'm just happy the thing went together easily and ran well (OK, over rich right now, but we'll be fixing that soon!)

Thanks for some good info! gn

I use WD 40 on gopher traps to hide my scent - works great. Come to think of it, when I pull the gopher out of the trap they do not have water on them....hmmm

Re: WD-40. I can tell you from personal experience (here in the town of it's origination - San Diego) that WD-40 is great for spraying on the leaf springs of a boat trailer. I did that for every Saturday for the better part of 20 years and the boat trailer leaf springs never rusted (water dispersant indeed!). Still got the boat and trailer, and the springs still flex as designed (can't say the same for the condition of the rest of the trailer though). Got two gallons of the stuff in the garage right now.
Can't hardly believe I once used this stuff (very briefly) to lube the chain on my motorcycle a very long time ago. Ouch! No, as a lubricant, it don't last very long at all.

Gary: Just out of curiosity, and because we all now know how good WD-40 is, what should we be using for an aerosol lubricant? The Silicone based stuff is OK for some applications, and I used to use some graphite/teflon based stuff in a silicon oil based carrier in the Space program many years ago, but nothing comes to mind as a WD-40 replacement for general lubrication.

Suggestions? gn

Gordon, the original VW valve settings of .004" intake and .006" exhaust were for stock aluminum VW pushrods that expanded roughly the same as the engine case, cylinders, and heads. With steel or chrome-moly pushrods the expansion difference is such that the valve clearance becomes excessive, so setting them at .001" cold means less noise and better valve train operation when the engine reaches operating temperature.

Replacement for WD40. Here on the Outer Banks of North Carolina we run ATV's on the beach all summer long, through salt spray, salt air and sand looking for sea turtle nests every morning. After every run we wash down the ATV then spray it with a lubercant going under the name BALLISTOL. We also spray Ballistol prior to the runs. This is a product developed in Germany and is distributed in the states. Distributor is here in Kitty Hawk. I have used Ballistol as a lubricant in many applications with no adverse effects. It is used by our law enforcement officers for gun cleaning, our townships in their maintenance garages, etc. May be hard to find but worth the search.

What do you do with the Turtle nests when you find them?

At work we use a product called Bo-Shield. Designed by Boeing for use on their planes. It goes on and stays on. We use it in salt water applications under pressure. Works great.

George: Thanks, and that makes sense to me.

I had heard of setting the lash at .001 but it seemed REALLY close. If the overall expansion takes care of tolerances then it should be OK. I need to adjust them about now anyway (been about 1.5K miles) so I'll run them in and see how she runs (then I get to set the carb jetting!! - should be a fun Spring!)

On the lubricants, just for the heck of it I checked at some of the marina's around here and they report: Boeshield T-9 is about the best, followed by Permatex Silicone spray, followed by Ultra Teff-Gel (mostly anti-corrosion and anti-seize), followed by CRC Marine formula 6-56, followed by Marvel Mystery Oil, which my uncle, a life-time Navy CB, swears by for just about everything, but it's pretty light. I remember visiting him once a long time ago, and he was massaging his arthritic knees with Marvel - said it made them feel better......hmmmmmmmmm.

Grease, around here, is a whole different education....everybody has different opinions but all agree that BOTH graphite AND molybdenum should be present and nobody seems to care if it has teflon in it.

Thanks everyone!

Gordon

Gordon...I agree with your marine source...... The CRC product can be gotten at electrical outlets ( Graybar, CED, Platt , rexell) and it's called 2-26.....in auto stores it's called power lube, and at industrial locations like grainger, applied industrial technology, and Fastenal its called 3-36..very good stuff.