Exhaust options

Anyone who has gone to www.geneberg.com and reads just a little of the technojargon and does not get a headache is a better man than I.
So please educate me. What is a header vs an extractor. Berg states that any modified 1600 must have an extractor to benefit from larger valves, cam lift etc.
What is a merged vs unmerged exhaust.
I was all set to just go to the local perf. guys and have a big flowmaster jammed where teh Bugpack is and hope that I get a deeper tone and then all this new info makes my head spin.
I have a fairly serioulsy built 1776 with hi lift Elgins, large intake and bigger ex valves and GB states that one of the most common reasons for over heating is incorrect air flow. Too much and too little are both bad.
Also he states that correct jetting of carbs is critical. I anm running Del 40s which came off the 2110 that got fried.
Lastly, My car pulls really strong from 3k to 4300 and then just bogs. I mean it will wind to 5200 rpms but it feels like someone hooked a trailor to it during those last 1200rpms. I just can't believe that a motor that cost me close to $2000 only has a 1300rpm power curve.

Ralph,

Yeah, Berg's website is a mess, but it's full of great information. The problem is, it's all in code since they have very few pictures, and the text pretty much rambles.

How about a few details on your motor? What sort of exhaust are you running right now? Is the inside of the tailpipe(s) very sooty? Do you notice smoke of any kind when you jump on the throttle?

You say your engine is a fairly serious 1776. Any specs? Cam, heads, etc. Any information you can give will help the forum help you out.

Ralph, what size of header are you using. A mild 1776 is fine with a stock sized 1 3/8 inches. A hot 1776 should probably run a 1 1/2 inch header. Are you running heater boxes? If so what size are they?
If you're going to buy a new system get a merged one. Be careful, as they stick out farther. Some members on this forum have merged headers that turn to one side, so they don't stick out the back. Buy quality. Putting on a cheap header can be a real PITA.
Below is a picture of the exhaust system on my 2110

Thanks Ron and Stan:
Gordon (Gnichols1) has helped me a lot however I wouldl like to retain as much of the stock look of the car as possible and the GB system he recommended is really obvious.
My 1776 has a 120 Engle cam with 435 lift and 294 duration with HD springs. Valves are 40 X 35.5 It as heater boxes and a Bugpack muffler. In Oregon one does not really need a heater or at least a small plug into the lighter will do, although I do like the defrost.
GB says that I shoiuld go with 1.5 inch.
Bosche 009 with timing set to stock 7 degrees
Also, for those of you who have not gone to the GB site for a while, they have a close ratio first and second trans shaft for $340. That is really calling to me.

Ralph:

"Bosche 009 with timing set to stock 7 degrees "????

That's a centrifugal advance distributor and the advance changes with engine RPM to a max amount. The proper way to adjust a 009 is to rev your engine to about 3000 RPM, and THEN set the advance to 30 degrees (which is a cool trick with the engine rev'ing in your ear). Once set, tighten the adjusting clamp and you're done, but you may have to re-adjust your idle back to where you want it.

gn

BTW: I sent a detailed response to Ralph via email answering his various questions. For those of us OLD Timers, this is all old news, but if any of you are newbies and would like to see this "Berg-speak" stuff explained in plain English, let me know and I'll post it under "Newbies".

gn

Thanks GOrdon. I was told by my builder the 7 degrees at idle would be 28-30 at 3k but I will try your way.
And Stan, when I called 3 differnet vendors to inquire about headers they all said they had nothing that would work, so I am back to asking what people are running.
Gordon has a GB and that's fine but I really would like a unit that is a little more out of sight.

Stan:
Ouch. I saw that you did some cutting to your car. I can't bring myself to do that. Henry at IM has done a lot of work designing and tooling a header, although I have yet to find out the price. I will call him.

Ralph,

I did no cutting on the car- that was Ron O's picture. You don't have to cut, but you do have to pay. CSP makes a nice 1-1/2" system that looks basically stock at the tail-pipes- it doesn't stick out, or look like a cal-look VW. It costs a lot- a year ago, it was $450 in raw steel. It is not merged, however.

You can see a bad picture of my system in my files. I've got a merged 1-5/8 "sidewinder" header custom built by Tiger at A1 Exhaust. It is a true merge, but has it's collector oriented east and west, rather than north and south on the car. The muffler has the inlet and outlet on the same side, so the installation looks very clean. I don't have the stock looking exhaust tips, however. I'll be adding some tail-pipes soon. It was over $600.

I'm guessing you are running rich, and that your exhaust is aggrivating the problem. You've got big carbs, big valves, and a big cam for your engine size. Stock heater boxes aren't even 1-3/8 daimeter inside. It's like having a potato stuck up your tail-pipe. You need a good exhaust system (1-1/2 at least). If you are sticking with the 1776, I'd get the CSP, and go from there.

I would almost bet you'll need to re-jet your carbs. Better yet- I'd just take them off, and get a set of AJ Sims Kadrons set up for your motor. If you like it- great, sell the Dels on the Samba and get your money back for the Kads. If not- hey, sell the Kads- everybody wants a good carb set.

Good luck.

My IM has one of A-1 Muffler's 1 3/4" "Sidewinder" systems; while the car was under construction at IM I was there when it was test fitted and the muffler/tailpipe assembly mounting was finalized. They fit and work very well; there's a pic of the finished installation on my car in this site's "Photos" section under georgeb.

When standing behind the car you couldn't see the cut-outs. The car had two cut-outs when I bought it. At some time in its past it must have had a dual pipe system....probably an Ansa or Monza. One of the cut-outs was enlarged to get the custom exhaust pipe as high as possible. If I were to do it again I'd go with the sidewinder header.
Ron

Is it possible to fit a Monza exhaust without having to cut chunks out of the fibreglass? Anybody got one they could take osme pictures of?

I like the Monza, or even the 'stock' single muffler with twin pipes, but wasn't sure whether the pipes would go beneath the back of the body.

TIA,

Jim.

Jim; my friend JJR's car has the Monza system and it clears the body fine; because it is a little bit rusty he decided to change it to a more original looking dual pipe system as sold by Vintage Speedsters; he ordered it from them, it came in a Tri-Mil box but when we tried to put it on last night it wouldn't clear the body. It's an awesome looking muffler and he ordered it from VS to make sure it worked on his CMC but he wasn't so lucky. I can't picture why it won't work on his car when it fit perfectly on Vince Manto's VS. I thought CMC's and VS's were almost identical.

So much great info! Stan, does CSP stand for Calif Speedster? DOes it include mufflers.
I finally decided to go to the source and Henry at IM told me to order a Thing muffler fromS&S Headers in AZ., make a couple of cuts and welds One thing all you folks are of course ignoring is the heater boxes. Oregon gets cold but no snow so we get to cruise year round---and I want a heater. Any of those little cig lighter plug ins work at all?
FOr me this may all be a mute point. I am willing to sacrifice a little performance to be on the road year round.

Lotsa enthusiasm about A1 Muffler. HOw does one find them?
It appears that all systems can be adapted with heater Perf heater boxes, yes?

Ralph,

You can contact Tiger from A1 at- Tigerperformance@aol.com. He can make anything you want, but be prepared to wait 6 weeks, and pay for it.

Stan

HI Stan:
Tiger asked a lot of questions and gave some good recommendations. I have opted for a sidwinder 1 5/8, in case I build the motor up a little more. No heater cause I agree with him that the heater boxes are not real pretty. He gave me two leads for heat that circumvents the heater boxes. Most IMs came with fans and since defrost is mostly what one needs, whether the air is warm or cold makes only slight difference in my expereince.
And besides is that not why one carries a hanky? Heat is meant for the feet and there are several options including an oil cooler that is mounted in the cabin and an electric heater that is hard wired.

Thanks to everyone for all their help on this. I think the issue is resolved.

Ralph,

So it begins... I too started out just wanting an exhaust for my 1776. Then Tiger built the perfect exhaust... in 1-5/8 (just so I could upgrade motors if I "ever" wanted to). And then I thought, "hmm.... a 2110 would be nice..." and so it began...

You'll love it. Its a work of art.

Thanks to all of you for your great inputs. Any one of them could have worked but I have no intention of ever selling this car so I am opting for spending a little more now than a little now and more later.
My dad, may his Teutonic soul rest in peace when we were poor imigrants---"we are too poor to buy cheap".
If I ever have more money than good sense I may buy a new 911 but why get rid of this fun Porsh-a.

Ralph, to answer you original question, there are two kinds of four-into-one headers.
The "merged" one has the last ten inches or so of all four pipes gently angled toward the center of the down-stream collector pipe. Ideally these four pipes actually come together in a sharp cone in their center (not all do). This "cone" helps breathing and raises the horsepower a bit. These cost more to buy.
Non-merged headers simply dump four parallel pipes straight into one large reducer pipe which becomes your collector. The center of these pipes results in a flat four sided star pattern which gets welded up. Cheaper to make.
The individual length and diameter of each individual pipe is also critical. The downstream collector length and diameter is an art all by itself. Both are critical to raising your horsepower. Go to SS Headers website for some very good general guidelines on the how's and why's of header/collector design. This is one case where V-8 or flat four makes little difference, the theory is pretty much the same.

BAS Type 4 exhaust header system with my custom tail pipe for rear exit.

Tri-Mill in long beach makes a well built stock stlye exhaust syslem that bolts up to stock heater boxes. $95 as of last week. A little more pricey but its worth it. THe fit is perfect and it has thicker pipes and flanges.

For the bigger money you will save in the long run by going with the CSP (BAP) system for a strong 1776. It's around 600 US these days but you get it all, a true custom fit 1.5 system with TRUE matching 1.5 boxes in Stainless Steel from the boxes back.

I would replace the 15x CSP/BAS mufflers with a better muffler though .... such as a pair of Magna Flow in a 15x6 in matching dia. I did notice a slight difference in pressure vs a CB merged system with a single magnaflow.

Ron O is on the mark here. If that 1776 has any porting, big heads or a cam worthy of flow... do not go with a 1.3/8 system.

I have sold the VS with a bad assed 1776, but I have a pic or two, The coolest thing about a CSP system outside of function? They look stock... very cool.

Jim

WOB is developing a SS muffler that is supose to look and sound very 356y.

Im still waiting , but it looks just like a 356 muffler twin tips and all.

They have a link at the Samba. Im holding out for that.

I love stomping on the gas.....ahhhhhhhhh VRRROoooooooommmmmm

Mike is that Cheech and Chong ? :)

Oops time to roll a fatty man..... No man that isn't dog chit man!

Mike:
WHere do you live in relation to Montreal. I grew up in "La Belle Province". Can't say I miss the weather but the French girls and food---well that is worth a trip back every few years.

I ran three systems on a strong 1776. One pretty close to yours, except I ran ICTs, the 40IDFs, then back to ICTs.

1. It came with VS's special exhaust (then), a dual QP system 1 3/8". When I put the built 1776 in and bolted back in the VS system it ran ok, but like you described, it lost it's legs around 42-4400 Rpm. It also ran a little warmer than I liked considering it had an oil cooler, stat and fan.

2. I bought a 1.5merged system from CB with matching boxes and ran a Dynomax. It hung out in the rear, but it really opened up the engine and allowed it to breathe. There was such an incredible difference and that 1776 sure had some punch all the way through around 52-5500 rpms. I put on the 40 IDFs then and a Comp-u-Fire & I picked up more top end power through 3500-5500.

3. Wanting a more stock look I sold the CB System and bought the CSP 1.5 duals with boxes when they started US sales through Arlington, TX & LA.(That's Custom Speed Parts. They are in Germany but have an LA office.) It looked great and worked great. Valves can be adjusted with them on, but it's a little tight with big hands. My sole negative comment is their mufflers are just a hair more restrictive than the Dynomax. And, of course, they are not a merged system so you lose a little there. But it was still a great system and you get a nice stock look. I put the ICTs back on for the drive to Knotts last year and it seemed to be a nice balance. Good Mileage, nice performance, and the car ran cool. I maintained 3500-4000 RPMs and some runs at 42-4500 on a R/T of 3200 miles and never had a problem.


My 4 Cents Worth.

ThanksJim. You are making me sweat in anticipation of my pipes from SS HEaders. Marge has been a hoot. TRhe local muffler guys wanted $300 to manufactire a system that comes out of the collector and goes back to each side so that the two Magnaflows can be attached.
What is Comp-u-Fire?

cont'd: Anyhow the muffler shops job was $300 plus ceramic coating. SS Headers has the entire thing for $149.

Ralph,

Comp-U-Fire manufactures Electronic ignitions. Many of us have used their kit to replace the breaker points. I think others have used the Pertronix kits too. They make point changes/gapping a thing of the past and I noticed quicker cold starts too. I think the kits are pretty affordable. Most of the parts outlets have them.

Good luck on your new system. Let us know how it goes and post pics.

Jim