External oil coller location

I am dropping my engine again in my CMC Speedster C with a 2010cc engine. It runs hot and my current oil cooler location is on the Dog house in front of the circular opening.
I have since been told this is a terrible location for the cooler (after being told it was the best location!!).

Where is a better location???
I do not plan on installing a fan.
Also, I do not run a inside doghouse cooler and am told that would also help, but I cannot find the two way fitting that allows both coolers to be used.
All help/opinions are appreciated.

i have a 2109cc CB Performance motor with there 189 dollar cooler with fan behind doghouse and it works great.

Derek
99 VS 2109cc

Derek,
You give my eMail address to the Mail Order Brides of the Ukrain?
I been gettin' some mail looks like it should be comin' your way...
MM

I mounted my oil cooler behind the firewall. I had concerns that it would not get enough air circulation so I put a fan on it. I found that when just running around town I do not need the fan, my oil temp. stays about 100 degrees and that's in 95 degree FL weather.

I'd check the oil temp with a meat thermometer, 100 degrees farenheit is not enough. Or did you mean celeries. Get a themometer with a long probe unlike what I did the first time.
ed

I hate to quote Gene Berg, but "Why put a bandage on your elbow if you have a sore on your knee?". My performance 2,110cc engine will run at 180 to 190 F around town on a 95 F day; cruising at 70 mph (3,250 RPM) on a 95 F day may see 210 to 220 F (above 225 F with non-synthetic oil is getting marginal). This is with 10/40 (cool/cold weather) and 20/50 (warm/hot weather) synthetic oil, 1 1/2 quart add-on sump, 30mm oil pump, and VW type 4 oil cooler in a modified doghouse shroud.

In warm/hot weather I also switch to a Porsche 356/912 fan pulley for about 11.5 % faster fan speed (use a welded balanced fan with this), then switch back to the stock pulley for cool/cold weather. No big deal; switching pulleys and belts takes about ten minutes.

There are people with 2,110, 2,165, and 2,276 performance engines running stock doghouse shroud coolers (type 3) in California with no overheating problems.

Read the "Knowledge" article on cooling and find/fix your problem instead of adding another cooler.

(Message Edited 11/15/2002 10:43:54 AM)

Speaking of Gene Berg...I noticed, in his catalog, that he does not recommend using synthetic oil, although the fellow who is rebuilding my 1776 to 2110 drag races a Beetle and swears by
Amsoil.

Gene also liked very low compression ratios. He was always right for HIS paradigm, but not necessarily right for yours. Synthetic oil is the best lubricant for 4 stroke automobile engines; most premium quality cars are now delivered new with synthetic oil in the engine (Porsche, for example).

George, I always thought that new engine parts needed to rub together and that Syn oil was so slippery that the parts would not bed or seat properly. My wifes new BMW came with castrol Syn and didn't have to be changed for 15000 miles, and only went down about a quarter of a quart in that time. I guess my knowledge from the 60s isn't good anymore!
ed

Ed, the reason engines needed to "break-in" many years ago was that manufacturing methods(tolerances, parts alignment, and RMF specs - rough machine finish)were not as precise. Modern engines have truer, more accurate clearances, better parts alignment (where that is a factor, like crank, rods, pistons, and cylinders), better metal alloys, and much finer RMF (like on crankshaft journals and cylinder walls).

For all practical purposes, quality produced modern engines do not really require a break-in period, but reasonably gentle driving for the first few hundred milesis a good idea to allow a bit of "wearing in".

(Message Edited 11/15/2002 2:54:03 PM)

When getting my new 2165 installed my builder told me that Speedsters have a cooling problem above that of a VW due to that empty space behind the engine and above the exhaust that the bug doesn't have. This gives air heated by the exhaust a place to accumulate and with dual carbs, this air gets sucked right back in to the engine. He made a few additions and modifications inside the engine bay to bring the temperature down from 210-220 to 180 running on the highway. If anyone is interested in knowing the full scope of the modifications, drop me an e-mail.

Colton, why don't you just post the info as an aricle in the Knowledge section, or as a sub-article to the cooling article?

In regard to synthetic oil, George is exactly correct about modern machining tolerances and methods. Computer controlled machining has reduced the variation from part to part. I remember hearing stories about Ford engine plants matching pistons to bores. Cylinder bores are currently cross-spherically-honed for production engine assembly and break-in or ring seating is not required. The company that I work as an engineer for produces filtration products for Mobil-1, so I have had some conversation with them concerning synthetic oils. I was told that any air cooled engine is ideally suited for synthetic oil due to the reduction of friction and of course, oil temperature. The only negative I know aboyt synthetic oil is that it has a tendency to leak past a seal (rubber) when a carbon-based oil would not have.

In my reply above, that should have read 200 degrees.

Bob

OK guys, I took some photos of the new engine and put them in my files section. Here are the main modifications and other things to keep cooling down.

First, the compartment has been almost completely sealed on the sides and underneath with aluminum and 1" breather hose to keep heat from the exhaust system from coming in and a ventilation system was installed bringing cool air in on both sides right next to the carbs (see photos).

Second, got rid of the original cooling shroud and tin and replaced it with a doghouse shroud from Scat.

Third, I am running 20/50 synthetic oil (Castrol) along with a quart of Lucas oil additive (www.lucasoil.com) with a larger oil sump (6 quarts total of oil).

Fourth, for highway running I have 8mm nuts between the hinges and engine lid on the bolts resulting in about a 1/2 inch gap (see photos). This makes the lid act as a scoop bringing in a good air flow. It doesn't look bad at all, and as I said, is for highway use. You can quickly remove the nuts for a cleaner look around town and put them back on if you know you are hitting the highway for a longer trip. This simple addition resulted in a 15-20 degree drop in temperature. Hope that helps.

I do want to send EXTREME KUDOS out to my engine builder... Kurt Mezger of West Chester, PA who owns Vintage Performance (www.vintageperformance.net). This man went above and beyond and wasn't out to simply sell me an engine like some of the others we encounter. He helped me develop a SOLUTION which is imperative if you are going to increase power and was extremely meticulous. My car runs UNBELIEVABLY now. If some of the DC guys are still able next weekend, let's take a run and you can check it out for yourself.

Colton gave me a idea, I have seen how late 911s raise their rear spoiler when they get up to speed.It would not be to hard to rig a servo motor normally used to open a headlight door to pop the hinged end of the lid up at 55 and above you will need air flap on the car somewhere to trigger a micro switch, and the latch may have to be tweeked to keep it from popping lose But it JUSt might work.

If you come up with a means for doing that, let me know about it. That would obviously save work having to add and remove the 8mm nut that opens the lid all the time. Sounds like a good project for the winter.

Gentlemen: a 4" diameter, marine stainless steel "butterfly vent" (West Marine catalog) that opens/closes by rotating will solve most cooling problems. Install it with a suitable stainless steel screen in the firewall directly opposite the coling fan intake. Open the vent in warm/hot weather and close it in cool/cold weather.

Note that the S/S rotating retaining pin on the vent should probably be tack welded on the back as it is simply peened.

George, are you saying this would go behind the drivers seats on the wall above the back bench in the cockpit?

Colton, I'm not sure of the build for VS or JPS cars so I can only address this modification on an IM. There is (or appears to be) a small vertical space between my IMs engine compartment firewall and the carpeted rear cockpit bulkhead that is open to the underside of the car. Next time I'm under the car I'll try to measure the size/shape.

(Message Edited 11/18/2002 4:55:49 PM)

I've gotten a lot of questions about the vent system that was installed next to the carbs... diameter of the openning, how it exits into the wheel wells, etc. So, the diameter is 1 1/2" and I have posted a photo in my files section called engine_vent_3.jpg. It was as clear as I could get it. But, suffice to say, on the other end there is a Jaz breather hose/catch can that serves to allow air flow from the fender wells in but block road grime and other crud. Hope that helps.

Colton,

Re the engine lid vent, JPS uses little plastic "buttons" under their engine grills rather than using a rubber gasket around the grill. This to open a slight bit more air space around the perimeter of the grill.

I had John Steele add Carrera louvers to my engine lid so stagnet, hot air isn't likely a problem for me, but I do like your solution also.

Colton, when you change your oil, or have it changed, or you talk with your engine builder, I am curious where the cool air duct outlet at the carbs originate. That sounds like an interesting idea for cooler, denser air for the carbs.

If a guy has a performance engine he will likely consider adding oil temperature & head temperature gauges. I am. When it comes to monitoring an air-cooled engine they are the best indicators.

I see another problem in the future with chosing a oil cooler location. In the area between the engine and the interior I have 2 heater blower fans pulling air from the cab, and pushing it through the ductwork system.

It will blow your socks off

I have plenty room at the front of the car for a cooler, But need to touch base with Jake first,to make sure that it wont cause a low oil presure problem. I was planning to install some 1/2 steel lines from front to rear. and plumb them right on to the cooler at the front. Then use 2 shorter than normal, first quality flex lines at the rear to the engine. The fan will be on a temp controler switch

I hope Jake see's this

(Message Edited 11/19/2002 4:35:16 AM)

Erik, if you ever make it to a national PCA show there will probably be a Carrera on display with a cool air "tray" on each side from carbs to the louvers (Ferrari used a similar setup on the competition 250GT cars - one big tray with a rock grill to the hood scoop which isolated three Webers from the engine bay hot air). Then the normal rear deck grill functioned as input for fan cooling air. Many Carreras also had a screened hole cutout behind the licensce plate for additional fan air input.

Hi George,

Yep, I have seen photos of those wonderful collars around the carbs and funnel shape under the louvers. I love that era of German engineering. I understand someone is working on some reproduction pieces which I will look into when I get to that point (though I would use some sort of air filter and not a screen per se).

I don't have the Carrera louvres but do have twin grills - I've thought of making carb boxes to fit around the K&N filters that will align a box intake with each side of the deck lid opening. They would have to mount between the carb top and filter bottom casting (the hex-bar base) with an extra gasket. The only problem with these approaches is a fairly heavy water intake in the rain unless you have a water trap/drain.

Then use a screened butterfly vent in the firewall (and behind the licensce plate cutout, if necessary) for cooling fan air input.

One thing that I havn't seen anybody mention is a little modification I tried with some success. I cut out the sides and rear of the rain tray on the underside of the engine cover. A dremmel tool and some masking tape to lay out a pattern, and I now have over twice the air inlet area. I've also seen a few real speedsters with an oval cut in the center of the rain tray, but I thought it would let in too much water. My solution still leaves in the edges of the tray for alittle protection. anyone have any thoughts on this? Oh, I left enough material at the rear to keep the latch strong.

Barry,
Your ideas (using cabin air to be recirculated in the car and using an oil cooler as a heater core) are what I have been toying with all fall. I just about have the removable hardtop side glass totally air-tight (after making several sets). Once the outdoor air infiltration problem is solved, I'll know just how much more heat I'll need. The stock heater boxes may be enough. Do you have pictures of your setup? What do you plan to do in the summer with the oil cooler/ heater core- do you have a way to dump the heat outside the car? I'm trying to come up with an idea for a diverting valve to dump the air if I decide to go in this direction. This is all pretty cool to me.

Eddie, the Carreras also had holes in the bottom-rear of the rain tray.

(Message Edited 11/19/2002 5:35:32 PM)

The oil cooler is a seperate system for the Engine Only. The duct work and blowers are to recirclate the air and push that air, into the heat exchangers on the engine,The engines air supply and fan shroud will have no shared air.I used Attwood Marine type blowers and they were hard to get the sound they make isolated, The ports and bases are now mounted in soft foam rubber.If I couid do it again I;d use the vw Squirrel cage type blowers they are said to be much quieter. BUT these DO make a breeze below the neeze.

Using a oil cooler for heater Is a nice idea but not what I did. However I am now giving the idea a good hard look if there is enough room between the blowers right above the tranny,and enongh room for a electic flap to close for winter heating? I really don't have the time to go back and redesign this system and still meet the Sept, 3rd Deadline, Unless Jake were to Insist. I will not it will have to be a rainy day project.

(Message Edited 11/19/2002 8:16:10 PM)