fan removal(new engine 815 miles) how to

fired it up today and horrendous metal to metal sound, pushed on doghouse but never went away so im assuming fan is bad.
question: i have everything unhooked but do i need to remove the alternator "tower" to get it out. i have tried everything else.
see picture
also i removed the belt first, spun it and it was metal to metal.

Bob.....You should be able to remove just the alternator and fan package....It may be a little close, but it comes out without the stand....Hope this helps.

i finally got the MF out. had to undue oil breather lines, 1/2 the hexbar linkage, the alternator stand and one side of doghouse.

THE PROBLEM::: the gland nut was finger tight and the fan was oscillating 3/8 inch. i believe someone forgot to tighten it during build.

two questions
do put gland nut on with impact and do i use loctite AND
what do i use to refasten the alternator tower to the block, adhesive wise.

Use loctite, hit it with an impact gun one or 2 times and use A good silicone sealer to re-attach the alternator stand. I like a product called 3Bond but any of the silicone sealers will work fine. There is a couple of paper gaskets that come in a gasket kit but I just use the baffle plate and the sealer and have great luck (in other words, no oil leaks)

the madness never stops
i was looking at the fan and the hole is round, it should be oblongated to fit the shaft. it has been loose for 815 miles and rounded the hole out, no wonder it was making noise.
i believe i burnt the bridge with the engine builder some time ago so im doing it my way.
any suggestions on a balanced fan so i dont haqve to deal with this again.

Check on the Samba. I think most of the aftermarket handles them...even J.C. WhipMe.

~WB

Bob--Maybe you thinjk you burned your bridge with the e4ngine builder but at just 800 miles he should do what is necessary to make it right. I'm sure this fan issue has zero to do witj whatever went on before---it couldn't have been much anyway. Ask him to stand behind it and make it right. They need you to be a satisfied customer, especially as active as you are on the SOC site.

Fan source:
http://www.geneberg.com/product_info.php?cPath=19_494_2979&products_id=1254

Bob send me your address and and I'll make sure I get a fan to you Roland

Bob-

This is not at all uncommon with "high performance" Type 1 rebuilds, unfortunately. I'd recommend getting a welded, balanced German fan from somebody who does them one at a time. I got mine from Art Thraen (ACE) in Salt Lake. Expect to pay twice as much as the Chinese fans in the back of "Hot VWs". It's worth every penny.

Good move Roland.

if the fan is still good and its been balanced you can have the washer welded on the fan, you can find thick washers. bill

Roland has as good a reputation as any builder out there. Top quality and premier work. He has helped me through a problem I had with absolutely nothing to gain for himself. Good guy.

I picked up a replacement alternator today. Asked the mechanic if i could remove the fan without the alternator stand. He said yes... I just don't see how you would do it. Came inside and logged on remembering this thread hoping Bob was able to get it done.
Guess not, what a pain. Bob, what did you do to re-seal the alternator base to the case? Did you re-use the metal piece?

Paul - Don't know how your car is set up, but my alternator is only held to the pedestal by a metal band that can easily be removed. Once done, unplug the wires and undo the four bolts holding the metal plate to the shroud, and it'll all slide out pretty easily.

EDIT: Oh, yeah, don't forget to remove the alternator belt. That's step one.

Paul,

Also the linkage for the duel carbs and other stuff as well. If you have the proper tools it is a 15 min job. It is easiest to remove the generator stand that way the whole fan comes out easily. I have always used red loctite on the fan nut and a 1/2 impact to secure the nut. I have never had one come loose.

Good luck.

I suspect Bob's problem was the engine builder did NOT get the fan tight in the first place.

paul. it was a PITA. i removed the alternator stand and bought a new metal plate, no other gaskets were on there. cleaned it up and resealed with permatex ultra black silicone gasket maker. took it for a ride and no leaks.:)
be sure you put the metal plate on the correct way or problems.
the louvered vents face downwards as the oil is being slung clockwise so the louvered part is shielding the oil from being thrown into the stand(does that make sense)
edit::: this is how i installed mine if u are facing motor, this is from the vw expert at bugformance.
correct me ifn i am wrong.

If I understand your description, this picture may also be applicable:
http://www.vwtrendsweb.com/tech/0404vwt_longblock_building_part_1/photo_13.html

I pulled the alternator stand. Just did not see any other way to remove it. Scott, interesting link. I would have expected the louvered plate to be installed down and oriented so that the louvers face the No. 2 cylinder. Doesn't the oil sling from the crank side (left of the oil filler neck)?

maybe u should email jowdy or rascn for a quicker answer. do it right the first time.

Bob,

I never took the metal louver screen off the case. It was installed initially as you have shown in your picture. I never had a problem with it that way, other than some oil dripping form the downdraft tube within minutes of the car being parked. Just left it the way it is. I now have a problem with the back of the pulley rubbing against the casting of the alternator... Hell of a learning curve on these motors.

i cant help u on that one, has happened to me yet. one of the few that hasnt.

Paul, Bob and all else: That picture is the correct orientation for a Speedster.

Bob, if you loosen the clamp for the alternator, you should be able to slide the alternator towards the rear of the car a smidgen for clearance. Make sure the pulleys are EXACTLY in line or you'll throw a belt. The engine shroud screws can be loosened to allow a little movement if needed.

The louvers in the metal baffle should be down with the flat side of the louvers facing the flywheel (toward the front of the car).

Based on the photo above, the plate needs to be rotated 90 degree's clockwise. The protruding or arched portions of the baffle should be down.

im leacving mine like it is, it isnt leaking and seems to run correctly.

Bob, it will probably work ok however, the crankshaft rotates clockwise and throws oil in that direction. The way you have the plate situated allows rotationally thrown oil to enter the alternator stand.

Run it until an oil leak develops (maybe will or maybe won't) then change it to the correct position.

Larry - I read an old post on this topic and someone mentioned that he replaced the studs on the base of the alternator stand with bolts. That way, removing the bolts would allow the entire alternator and stand to slide straight back without having to lift it up to clear the tops of the studs. I currently have my alternator and stand out of the car for a voltage regulator replacement, and it seems this might be a good mod to install when I put it back in. I'd appreciate your opinion on whether this is a worthwhile idea. Are there any downsides to doing this? It would have made removal a hell of a lot easier.

very interesting...
if u use bolts the only thing holding down all the tension of the alternater belt and such is the diamater of the bolts going into the case.
but if there are studs sticking out of case and the alternator stand is set on them and then attaching washers and nuts,is it as strong?

i am going with the way the vw did it as the strength comes from the stud sticking up and absorbing the energy/torque of the fan/alternator belt forces.
F x 1/2 dia.(3x-2d)+3.187 squared x 4.3% = the stud wins

Bob - Not sure I follow your reply. The shaft of the bolt will be the same dimension as the shaft of the stud. The head of a bolt would serve the same function as the nut you would screw down onto the stud and could be sized equal to the nut. You can also install washers under the bolt heads, just as you would do under the nuts on the studs. Dimensionally, a bolt would be nearly identical to a stud + nut, so I can't see where there would be much of a difference in strength. As I see it, the stud has the advantage of making it easy to align the stand (and the plate under it) when you drop it down onto the case, whereas you'd have to slide it around a bit to feed the bolts down through the stand and into the case. The bolts have the advantage of being able to slide the stand straight back when removing alternator(no need to lift shroud).

Felix, I've built VW engines and removed the studs in many area's and installed bolts.
No problems that I know of and yes, it does make sense to use 8mm bolts instead of the studs. Just make sure they are long enough to reach the bottom of their threaded holes, in other words, you want the bolt to grab a lot of the threads rather than just a few. (Makes the bolt more stable)

One of the reasons why VW used so many studs had to do with longevity and lining up some components. Obviously, it easier to drop a component onto studs rather that trying to find threaded holes with a bolt. Another and important reason is that the case has to be threaded to accept a stud. Constant inserting and removing of bolts tends to weaken the threaded holes in the case. Add a stud and the thread holes are less affected.

Removing the alternator stand is a rarety so in my opinion, using bolts isn't going to hurt anything.

Larry - Thanks for the reply. I hadn't thought of the issue of frequency of stud/bolt insertion into a soft metal case, but I can see where studs would be better in cases of frequent removal of a component.

I remounted the fan on my alternator and noticed that there is a bit of wobble when I spin by hand - maybe 1/16 of an inch. I don't know if it was that way before I disassembled it, so I'm not sure if I bent anything wrestling it out of the fan shroud when I took it out, or if it was that way to begin with. My question is whether that amount of wobble is likely to present a problem when reinstalled and exposed to engine speeds. I rarely rev the engine past 4000 RPM's, but I don't want to install this thing if it's likely to come apart. On the godd side, I have my alternator stand set up to make removal a lot easier (and less prone to having the fan contact the shroud during removal) next time.

felix, i bought an american made, balanced fan and mine had just a minute wobble to it, i was concerned but put it in and it works just fine.

If it's bent, it's always wise to true up the spin. You can sit the alternator in it's stand, place a dial gauge along the edge and determine where it's bent, If you don't have a dial gauge, use a straight edge mounted at 90 degree's and touching the high spot on the fan then rotate it You will be able to see how much it needs to be bent to straighten up the rotation. Anything spinning that fast and out of whack will eventually cause problems and, it may hit the fan shroud making a loud scraping noise. Then again, it may not.

It's just one of the things you do when building an engine and doing it right the first time.

The idea of using a balanced and welded fan is WISE. If one comes apart, it will cause a lot of damage and possibly injury.

Bob and Larry - Thanks for your feedback. I just went online and ordered a welded, balanced fan from CiP1 - the one they rate as their best quality fan. I'd rather not mess around with components that are prone to disintegrate and cause collateral damage. This all started out as a simple voltage regulator replacement and has really dragged out as I have to order parts and wait for shipping. On the bright side, I'm learning a lot about this engine!

One question, the 2 flat spacers that were on my fan broke in half when I removed the fan nut. They were between the nut and the fan, which means they were acting as washers and not spacers. I bought the correct wavy washers to use under the nut this time around. What is the test to determine if spacers are needed under the fan - simple clearance of the fan/shroud gap?

Usually if a spacer is needed between the alternator and the alternator stand, then something about the placement of the fan shroud is wrong.

Yep.....look and see where the paint is missing, and shim as required...... ;-)

when i removed the broken fan there was 1 washer only but the new fan came with 2 washers. i tried to get 2 washers on there but it wouldnt work so put 1 on and it cinched down tight.
does it need 2 washers?