Ive heard different things concerning the best way to work with fiberglass to get the strength, and finish of a metal car. Which is best and why? Can anyongive me an unbiased answer.
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Ive heard different things concerning the best way to work with fiberglass to get the strength, and finish of a metal car. Which is best and why? Can anyongive me an unbiased answer.
Modern metal cars are weak by design. The more destructible the car, the less force exerted on the occupant in a crash. Weakness is a good thing in that case. What I think you are probably worried about is long term cracking.
The big difference is in the skill of the tech.
You can have problems with either technique if the person doing the job doesn't have the experience necessary.
The difference in practice has been that a chopper gun can be used by almost anyone. You hold the trigger and spray. There may be no thought given to uniform thickness.
Handlaid forces the worker to at least make an attempt at uniform thickness.
This used to be a problem in the days of CMC/Fiberfab. Many cars were turned out that have varying thickness which leads to cracking. It was easy to tell one of these cars by feeling the lip of the wheel well. It would vary drastically from maybe 1/4 inch to 1 inch. That doesn't mean they were all like that, it depended on who was runnning the gun that day.
With all that said, I haven't seen that problem on any car made in the last 10 years.
Finish comes from work after the mold has completely cured. Lots of longboard sanding and you can get almost any car straight. There will always be ripples. Even metal cars have them. The difference in how pronounced they are, is in how much you are willing to pay to get the car smooth, independant of the manufacurer.
For some manufacturer's this is built into the price, hence the fact it may cost more. With other manufacturer's you either need to pay extra, or realize that less time will be spent on the body to meet the price you are willing to pay. Simple economics. The good thing is that all the manufacturers will work with you on what you want.
-=theron
The big difference is in the skill of the tech.
You can have problems with either technique if the person doing the job doesn't have the experience necessary.
The difference in practice has been that a chopper gun can be used by almost anyone. You hold the trigger and spray. There may be no thought given to uniform thickness.
Handlaid forces the worker to at least make an attempt at uniform thickness.
This used to be a problem in the days of CMC/Fiberfab. Many cars were turned out that have varying thickness which leads to cracking. It was easy to tell one of these cars by feeling the lip of the wheel well. It would vary drastically from maybe 1/4 inch to 1 inch. That doesn't mean they were all like that, it depended on who was runnning the gun that day.
With all that said, I haven't seen that problem on any car made in the last 10 years.
Finish comes from work after the mold has completely cured. Lots of longboard sanding and you can get almost any car straight. There will always be ripples. Even metal cars have them. The difference in how pronounced they are, is in how much you are willing to pay to get the car smooth, independant of the manufacurer.
For some manufacturer's this is built into the price, hence the fact it may cost more. With other manufacturer's you either need to pay extra, or realize that less time will be spent on the body to meet the price you are willing to pay. Simple economics. The good thing is that all the manufacturers will work with you on what you want.
-=theron
Well said Theron!
I recently bought a partially assembled speedster ('69VW frame, all new suspension, pre-mounted body). It was approximately 4 years old. It body had been smoothed out and primed; either by the previous owner or by the factory. Discovering that it was a laquer based primer, and being that I wanted a good urethane paint finish, I decided that I had to strip the entire body of its primer. As it turned out, this was the best thing that could have happened. After stripping, I found 6 different "spider web" cracks that eventually would have crept up thru the primer and the finished paint job. I know these are common in fiberglass bodies after several years, but have never read about how these cracks begin. Are they caused by impacts, being unevenly stressed to soon after being removed from the molds? Does anyone here know anything about how they occur?
Brian, Hathorne nj? I could hit your house with a stone. Cracking, cracks that start from a hole, lip in a corner or other "point" are cause by stress/movement. Cracking in the surface
kind of uniform like old dried paint can be caused by quite a few things but usually from
too much hardener(gel coat) or shortened dry time.
As to finding hidden issues under primer is exactly the reason quite a few body shops
frown upon just applying the paint. They don't know what was done underneath and who
will be blamed when they pop up later.
kind of uniform like old dried paint can be caused by quite a few things but usually from
too much hardener(gel coat) or shortened dry time.
As to finding hidden issues under primer is exactly the reason quite a few body shops
frown upon just applying the paint. They don't know what was done underneath and who
will be blamed when they pop up later.
I do know that as years go by fiberglass tends to dry out and lose some of the resin; maybe that's another cause.
Fiberglass takes awhile to totally cure which can cause depressions and ripples - regardless of how made. I don't think added thickness is cause of stress cracks or spidering. It is important to use large fender washers to spred any stress caused by thru bolts. Suspect extra thickness in some areas is good --- cars have thicker metal at critical points. Even in fender well lips its good because it gives you something to grind down to a uniform turn under. My guess is on a boat, construction method might make a difference becuse it and embedded wood core give the strength but on Speedster you have a strong metal frame for added support.
and...."hand laid" is supposed to follow a pattern with glass mat crossing the previous layer
perpendicular to the previous layer=like plywood. Chopper guns mix the strands so to cross
the fibers at all different angles==like osb (oriented strand board). When I built my house
the building inspector asked what sheathing I was going to use? I replied what's the diff.
they're the same strength. Flat out told me "thats bull$%%". I have learned to agree with
him concerning plywood/osb and hand laid(properly) vs chopper gun. I'm an aircraft
mech and they/we use fiberglass and similar products all over the planes. Not a chopper
gun in sight. But it's fine for a speedster body.
perpendicular to the previous layer=like plywood. Chopper guns mix the strands so to cross
the fibers at all different angles==like osb (oriented strand board). When I built my house
the building inspector asked what sheathing I was going to use? I replied what's the diff.
they're the same strength. Flat out told me "thats bull$%%". I have learned to agree with
him concerning plywood/osb and hand laid(properly) vs chopper gun. I'm an aircraft
mech and they/we use fiberglass and similar products all over the planes. Not a chopper
gun in sight. But it's fine for a speedster body.
There is nothing "aircraft quality" about any hand laid fiberglass speedster body I've ever seen or owned. Due to how labor intensive the process is, everything I've seen has been farmed out "south of the border, somewhere".
As outlined in the post above, the main problem with chopper guns is operator error (too thick here, too thin there). However, hand laid fiberglass can be botched up as well- with air bubbles between the layers of glass.
Assuming both processes are done correctly, either is just fine for a speedster body. The thing to remember is that the process is only one item in a long list that will determine how long a body looks good.
My first speedster was hand laid, but I don't know if was ever blocked at all. It didn't just ripple, it waved. My JPS was also hand laid, and looked fantastic on delivery, but after six months or so had developed some serious ripples.
My Intermeccanica has a "chopper gun" body, but Henry pays a lot of attention to the amount (and type) of resin used in the process, and the operator of the gun lays a nice uniform layer of glass. The bodies are then cured (baked under heat lamps) to allow the fiberglass to "gas off" after they have fully cured. Only once the body is cured does the process of blocking begin. My car looks as straight as the day it was delivered a year ago.
My point? How the fiberglass is applied to the mold is probably the least important part of getting a nice, strong, straight body. As with everything else, some stuff sounds a lot more impressive than it really is. It's the details that count.
As outlined in the post above, the main problem with chopper guns is operator error (too thick here, too thin there). However, hand laid fiberglass can be botched up as well- with air bubbles between the layers of glass.
Assuming both processes are done correctly, either is just fine for a speedster body. The thing to remember is that the process is only one item in a long list that will determine how long a body looks good.
My first speedster was hand laid, but I don't know if was ever blocked at all. It didn't just ripple, it waved. My JPS was also hand laid, and looked fantastic on delivery, but after six months or so had developed some serious ripples.
My Intermeccanica has a "chopper gun" body, but Henry pays a lot of attention to the amount (and type) of resin used in the process, and the operator of the gun lays a nice uniform layer of glass. The bodies are then cured (baked under heat lamps) to allow the fiberglass to "gas off" after they have fully cured. Only once the body is cured does the process of blocking begin. My car looks as straight as the day it was delivered a year ago.
My point? How the fiberglass is applied to the mold is probably the least important part of getting a nice, strong, straight body. As with everything else, some stuff sounds a lot more impressive than it really is. It's the details that count.
Henry bakes his cars to speed up the outgassing process, which has to be done with ANY chopper-gun application because of the large amount of air introduced to the resin mix from the chopper gun.
Hand mat lay-ups are either squeegeed or rib-rollered to get the air bubbles out, but chopper applications cannot be either squeegeed or rollered - just the nature of the processes. BOTH application processes should be baked to reduce subsequent out-gassing of imbedded layers. It can take up to a year or more to fully cure (outgas) a multi-lay-up of, say, 3/4's of an inch thickness. Baking the part can reduce that period to several weeks (but not eliminate the cure cycle).
Properly applied hand lay-ups of finer fiberglass cloth can have up to ten times the overall strength (at half the thickness) and much better control of final thickness over chopper gun applications, but there is a 30% - 50% premium in labor to do the hand lay-up over a chopper gun, so most automotive products are now using choppers exclusively.
Most of what you want to know is here:
https://www.speedsterowners.com/knowledge/article.asp?id=204
also, there's a host of good fiberglass industry information on the internet - you folks should read up on it, as there's a good amount of mis-information in the posts above.
Hand mat lay-ups are either squeegeed or rib-rollered to get the air bubbles out, but chopper applications cannot be either squeegeed or rollered - just the nature of the processes. BOTH application processes should be baked to reduce subsequent out-gassing of imbedded layers. It can take up to a year or more to fully cure (outgas) a multi-lay-up of, say, 3/4's of an inch thickness. Baking the part can reduce that period to several weeks (but not eliminate the cure cycle).
Properly applied hand lay-ups of finer fiberglass cloth can have up to ten times the overall strength (at half the thickness) and much better control of final thickness over chopper gun applications, but there is a 30% - 50% premium in labor to do the hand lay-up over a chopper gun, so most automotive products are now using choppers exclusively.
Most of what you want to know is here:
https://www.speedsterowners.com/knowledge/article.asp?id=204
also, there's a host of good fiberglass industry information on the internet - you folks should read up on it, as there's a good amount of mis-information in the posts above.
I like Gordon, and he has probably forgotten more about fiberglass than I will ever know- but "mis-information" is a pretty strong word, and because I'm a type "A" kind of guy (much to my dismay), I'd like to at least clarify my statements above.
I'll grant that hand laid fiberglass, properly done is stronger and lighter than "chopper-gun" glass. But for the purpose of bodies for these cars, I'm concerned about two things- firstly, if the fiberglass is strong enough for the purposes, and secondly, how the paint looks after a year or so.
Vintage, JPS, Beck, and SAW use bodies from Mexico or Brazil. Gordon said:
"Properly applied hand lay-ups of finer fiberglass cloth can have up to ten times the overall strength (at half the thickness) and much better control of final thickness over chopper gun applications, but there is a 30% - 50% premium in labor to do the hand lay-up over a chopper gun, so most automotive products are now using choppers exclusively."
I'm not saying that bodies from south of the border can't be good pieces, I'm saying that the reason that hand-laid speedster bodies are made there has nothing to do with the quality or strength of the end product. It's less expensive to get a hand-laid body from Mexico than a domestically produced chopper-gun piece. And THINK of the cost savings if you don't mess around with all that time-consuming curing stuff!
I was once told by a (anonymous big-name) builder when I pointed out a lot of waving on one of his older cars, "yeah... fiberglass does that". Yes it does, if you don't cure it.
All I'm saying is that I have owned both. I'd vastly prefer the chopper-gun body I've got now to the hand-laid one I had three years ago.
I'll grant that hand laid fiberglass, properly done is stronger and lighter than "chopper-gun" glass. But for the purpose of bodies for these cars, I'm concerned about two things- firstly, if the fiberglass is strong enough for the purposes, and secondly, how the paint looks after a year or so.
Vintage, JPS, Beck, and SAW use bodies from Mexico or Brazil. Gordon said:
"Properly applied hand lay-ups of finer fiberglass cloth can have up to ten times the overall strength (at half the thickness) and much better control of final thickness over chopper gun applications, but there is a 30% - 50% premium in labor to do the hand lay-up over a chopper gun, so most automotive products are now using choppers exclusively."
I'm not saying that bodies from south of the border can't be good pieces, I'm saying that the reason that hand-laid speedster bodies are made there has nothing to do with the quality or strength of the end product. It's less expensive to get a hand-laid body from Mexico than a domestically produced chopper-gun piece. And THINK of the cost savings if you don't mess around with all that time-consuming curing stuff!
I was once told by a (anonymous big-name) builder when I pointed out a lot of waving on one of his older cars, "yeah... fiberglass does that". Yes it does, if you don't cure it.
All I'm saying is that I have owned both. I'd vastly prefer the chopper-gun body I've got now to the hand-laid one I had three years ago.
HI, Stan....and you're right; BOTH hand lay-ups OR chopper gun applications, if done poorly, will result in a sub-standard finished product - it has everything to do with the economics of low-cost labour in a labour-intensive product (and how well that labour has been trained).
Chopper technology is fine for the purpose targeted by Speedster body makers; to produce relatively low-cost car bodies of acceptable quality for the intended market. Baking them post build to insure "straightness" is simply one alternative - vacuum evacuation is another, and letting it sit for a long time is a third. All three work, just some faster or better than others at different time and cost points.
That's exactly why Ted Hood (a Big name Boat builder, formerly building boats in Rhode Island) is now making his boats in Turkey for two reasons: 1.) The labor is very well trained there and far cheaper than similar skills in the 'States or Western Europe and 2.) the finished product is closer to the intended market (he sells far more of his product in Europe right now than enywhere else).
You're also right about post cure "waving"...Depending on how (and how long) the piece was out-gassed (cured) and, often, how long it's allowed to sit in the sun if it wasn't fully outgassed properly, a fiberglass panel may exhibit some waving over time until finally cured. The trouble with using a long-block sander to remove the waves is that they may be deep enough that you begin to get into the mat layers, and then have to skim with filler to get a proper, smooth surface. All of that takes time (and costs money, too!) MUCH better to "bag it" in an evacuator bag for several days to fully outgas it, or bake it for a while (evacuation is more expensive than baking). Lots of the really older bodies had neither, as the industry was learning from its' mistakes.
Costs are what killed the American boat building industry - it is VERY labour intensive to build a boat, so the majority of higher-end hulls (and, now, a lot of the super-structures) are built off-shore. The same holds true for Speedster (and other car) bodies.
We're living in a Global economy....you go where the costs are less in order to compete with the intended quality, and, usually, shipping costs from East Zamboogy are less than in-process labour costs in the 'States.
Chopper technology is fine for the purpose targeted by Speedster body makers; to produce relatively low-cost car bodies of acceptable quality for the intended market. Baking them post build to insure "straightness" is simply one alternative - vacuum evacuation is another, and letting it sit for a long time is a third. All three work, just some faster or better than others at different time and cost points.
That's exactly why Ted Hood (a Big name Boat builder, formerly building boats in Rhode Island) is now making his boats in Turkey for two reasons: 1.) The labor is very well trained there and far cheaper than similar skills in the 'States or Western Europe and 2.) the finished product is closer to the intended market (he sells far more of his product in Europe right now than enywhere else).
You're also right about post cure "waving"...Depending on how (and how long) the piece was out-gassed (cured) and, often, how long it's allowed to sit in the sun if it wasn't fully outgassed properly, a fiberglass panel may exhibit some waving over time until finally cured. The trouble with using a long-block sander to remove the waves is that they may be deep enough that you begin to get into the mat layers, and then have to skim with filler to get a proper, smooth surface. All of that takes time (and costs money, too!) MUCH better to "bag it" in an evacuator bag for several days to fully outgas it, or bake it for a while (evacuation is more expensive than baking). Lots of the really older bodies had neither, as the industry was learning from its' mistakes.
Costs are what killed the American boat building industry - it is VERY labour intensive to build a boat, so the majority of higher-end hulls (and, now, a lot of the super-structures) are built off-shore. The same holds true for Speedster (and other car) bodies.
We're living in a Global economy....you go where the costs are less in order to compete with the intended quality, and, usually, shipping costs from East Zamboogy are less than in-process labour costs in the 'States.
Stan, Boy are you on edge. Reread the posts you have answered. Like I said(not as eloquently
as others):
I never said layered was aircraft quality. What I said was that on aircraft the chopper wasn't used. I don't care what aim (application control) you have with a chopper gun you can't match
the carefully planned placement of the mat direction(where your strength comes from). Do you need that strength in a car body, not at all.
as others):
I never said layered was aircraft quality. What I said was that on aircraft the chopper wasn't used. I don't care what aim (application control) you have with a chopper gun you can't match
the carefully planned placement of the mat direction(where your strength comes from). Do you need that strength in a car body, not at all.
Stan, Boy are you on edge. Reread the posts you have answered. Like I said(not as eloquently
as others):
I never said layered was aircraft quality. What I said was that on aircraft the chopper wasn't used. I don't care what aim (application control) you have with a chopper gun you can't match
the carefully planned placement of the mat direction(where your strength comes from). Do you need that strength in a car body, not at all.
as others):
I never said layered was aircraft quality. What I said was that on aircraft the chopper wasn't used. I don't care what aim (application control) you have with a chopper gun you can't match
the carefully planned placement of the mat direction(where your strength comes from). Do you need that strength in a car body, not at all.
One thing that isn't mentioned is OSHA standards for handling fiberglass and plastic resins. A lot of early glassers and plastic fabricators died from inhaling fumes over along periods of time. Something companies that outsource don't seem to worry about. I'm not a tree hugger and like to save a buck where ever I can, I just don't like outsourcing.
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Blown or laid, blah, blah, blah, the real test is in the results and the long term visual beauty. No one in the Speedster Replica market matches the straight lines and long lasting durability of IM's bodies. And no one else does the amount of blocking and prep that IM does. And as far as I know from the number of cars I've looked at, no one is even close in the quaility of paint.
You do get what you pay for. Stan knows that from owner experience, and so do I.
You do get what you pay for. Stan knows that from owner experience, and so do I.
However, Stan is incorrect in his statement that SAW bodies come from south of the border; they don't anymore. The molds being used are owned by SAW and molding is done locally. A small point, of course, but if we want to be precise, lets make certain that our facts are up to date.
There's no question about it, IM quality is great. Now, for gosh sakes, lets not start another war; this is so pointless. If we are happy with our cars, that should be good enough. Give it a rest for gosh sakes!
There's no question about it, IM quality is great. Now, for gosh sakes, lets not start another war; this is so pointless. If we are happy with our cars, that should be good enough. Give it a rest for gosh sakes!
What I don't understand is why, when a question is presented it always brings out the flag wavers that IM is the best and to own and drive anything else is inferior. Yes IM is top of the line, personly I tink Henry does one hell of a car and my hat is off to him. He is a stand up guy and a decent business man,to get this quality the customer can expect to pay for such. Is it too much for a person to get answers to a posed question without being fed a sales pitch of mine's better than yours?
...apparently not...
If that were possible, there would be no further replies posted after Howard B's initial question..."can anyone give me an unbiased answer"? - LOL
Peace - Out!
If that were possible, there would be no further replies posted after Howard B's initial question..."can anyone give me an unbiased answer"? - LOL
Peace - Out!
I missed something. Who asked which kit car mfg was best?
Thank you all for the input. What Ive distilled from your threads is really quite simple. Both methods, for a car application will work. Its ALL in the preparation, workmanship, experience of the fiberglass techs. Chopper or handlaid, if done improperly will yield a poor result, no matter what company you go with. The quality for the final result, trueness of reflection, long term stability, paint quality is all a function of labor intensive work. Sometimes paying more for a product is well worth it.
I think Howard's got it. I may have missed something, but I thought that's what I was saying. I'm not the greatest communicator, apparently.
Sorry to trouble you, Gentlemen. I meant no offence to any buyer, builder, or seller, past, present, or future. I trust you'll carry on.
Sorry to trouble you, Gentlemen. I meant no offence to any buyer, builder, or seller, past, present, or future. I trust you'll carry on.
I wonder how Jim W. really feels about IM?
Measurement. I have my wife believing great things, I have her use a metric ruler.
Howard asked about Fiberglass! For all we know he doesn't even want to buy a car, but wants a new career. I have deleted the "my manufacturer is better comments". Once again, this does nothing to help the question or general mood of the site.
-=theron
-=theron
I think the reason Stan answered the way he did is, the quality of the final product has more to do with the builder, than with the method of fiberglassing. And that is fair comment isn't it?
Well that's the Democratic way, I pose a question and get deleted, god for bid asking:
"What I don't understand is why, when a question is presented it always brings out the flag wavers that IM is the best and to own and drive anything else is inferior. Yes IM is top of the line, personally I think Henry does one hell of a car and my hat is off to him. He is a stand up guy and a decent business man,to get this quality the customer can expect to pay for such. Is it too much for a person to get answers to a posed question without being fed a sales pitch of mine's better than yours....
"What I don't understand is why, when a question is presented it always brings out the flag wavers that IM is the best and to own and drive anything else is inferior. Yes IM is top of the line, personally I think Henry does one hell of a car and my hat is off to him. He is a stand up guy and a decent business man,to get this quality the customer can expect to pay for such. Is it too much for a person to get answers to a posed question without being fed a sales pitch of mine's better than yours....
I didn't see any flag-waving. What I read was the combination or balance of glas to resin is important. Cure time is important. What happens to the body after it comes out of the mold in preparation for paint, whether is from a chop-gun or hand-laid is important.
I also read opinions from someone who has had a multitude of experiences around various manufacturers. I saw some updated information from the owner of a car built by a recent new contender.
Some builders, by their own admission, provide a one-size-fits-all approach to finish and unless the customer knows to ask for more and is willing to pay more, these builders put their cars on the road, satisfied they are going to look reasonably good for a few years to come.
Hell, I quit trying to compete with Dale Bates in car shows with the stock interpretation of my speedster for this very reason; his was just absolutely finished out better than mine, shined better than mine and didn't have the funny wave in the left door. My guess is his car cost more than mine too. He got his money's worth! By making mine look as if it has seen more miles, some of them race track, my car looks believeable and that is a tribute to 'when life gives you lemons, make lemonade'
Someone else on this thread pointed out, OSHA, environmental concerns and economic factors all contributing to the end result of a replicar. Outsourcing sucks whether it is a fibreglas body, a Chinese fan pulley or cheap Brazillian chrome.
Our flag in the US is waving at half-mast when it comes to these matters. We can't compete. The alternative is to go without. That's the sad flag-waving truth!
I also read opinions from someone who has had a multitude of experiences around various manufacturers. I saw some updated information from the owner of a car built by a recent new contender.
Some builders, by their own admission, provide a one-size-fits-all approach to finish and unless the customer knows to ask for more and is willing to pay more, these builders put their cars on the road, satisfied they are going to look reasonably good for a few years to come.
Hell, I quit trying to compete with Dale Bates in car shows with the stock interpretation of my speedster for this very reason; his was just absolutely finished out better than mine, shined better than mine and didn't have the funny wave in the left door. My guess is his car cost more than mine too. He got his money's worth! By making mine look as if it has seen more miles, some of them race track, my car looks believeable and that is a tribute to 'when life gives you lemons, make lemonade'
Someone else on this thread pointed out, OSHA, environmental concerns and economic factors all contributing to the end result of a replicar. Outsourcing sucks whether it is a fibreglas body, a Chinese fan pulley or cheap Brazillian chrome.
Our flag in the US is waving at half-mast when it comes to these matters. We can't compete. The alternative is to go without. That's the sad flag-waving truth!
I beleive the builders here in the states could step up to IM quality with the understanding ,(and I quoat). It's gona cost ya!!!
You get what you pay for..
You get what you pay for..
I have deleted the "my manufacturer is better comments". Once again, this does nothing to help the question or general mood of the site.
-=theron
What is up with this? I was really enjoying all comments. Why are you deleting peoples opinions? Is this not a right we enjoy here in the US? I realize this is your dig, but if folks aren't allowed to speak their minds, on this, or any other site, what is the point?
It got in to fiberglas and that was the original question, but there was some good stuff in between. Especially for us "Newbies"
-=theron
What is up with this? I was really enjoying all comments. Why are you deleting peoples opinions? Is this not a right we enjoy here in the US? I realize this is your dig, but if folks aren't allowed to speak their minds, on this, or any other site, what is the point?
It got in to fiberglas and that was the original question, but there was some good stuff in between. Especially for us "Newbies"
And all I asked about was which was a better technique. I learned alot about this question. But what you learn about people is sometimes even more interesting. NO ONE SHOULD TAKE IT UPON THEMSELVES TO DELETE COMMENTS THAT THEY MIGHT NOT AGREE WITH OR DEEM INAPPROPRIATE to the discussion underway. Eveyone should have a chance to participate in the discussion without restraint by the other members. Let the reader decide truth from fiction.
I give up. There is no pleasing anyone. Bitch all you want, tear each other apart. There is no civility, restraint or comradery. I'm done trying, I don't give a shit anymore. I'll drive my car, anyone who wants to join is welcome.
Feel free to tear into each other. Half of you are idiots for paying too little for their poorly prepared cars, the other half for paying too much for a plastic replica.
The adult has left the playground, mud is free. Who's gonna be the first little bitch to complain that dirt is in their eye.
And what the hell did any of this have to do with "handlaid vs chopper-gun a non-bias opinion"?
Feel free to tear into each other. Half of you are idiots for paying too little for their poorly prepared cars, the other half for paying too much for a plastic replica.
The adult has left the playground, mud is free. Who's gonna be the first little bitch to complain that dirt is in their eye.
And what the hell did any of this have to do with "handlaid vs chopper-gun a non-bias opinion"?
Theron: I've been a member for a few years now, both paying and non-paying. During the time I hadn't paid I felt that I did not have the right to criticize or demean the site or other members unless someone made a remark about me. We need a referee since many people that use this site need to be reigned in, whether boasting how much better their builder is or so and so is a jerk about something or other. The flame wars that occured in the past were laid to rest until someone crops up and starts in again. I'm glad to see you remove the postings that could lead to another flaming period and to those of you that haven't kicked into to support this site keep your bitching about this site to yourselves until you contribute or just go f--k off somewhere else cause you're not needed in this club.
Howard, Theron is the site administrator and that gives him the right to delete posts he thinks are inappropriate. I don't know how long you have been part of this "fellowship" but I suspect not too long. I think that Theron is doing a respectable job running the site and I suspect he will continue to do so.
Those of us that have been around a while realize that there are a few subjects that we try to avoid.
1. Religion
2. Politics
3. my car is better than yours.....neh neh neh neh neeeeehh neh.
Once in a while, we lose our grip and get testy, myself included. Overall, however, I think this is a good place to hang out and much good information has changed hands. Also, as a byproduct, many friendships have been forged over the years. I hope that these things will continue
my 2 krona
Hoss
Those of us that have been around a while realize that there are a few subjects that we try to avoid.
1. Religion
2. Politics
3. my car is better than yours.....neh neh neh neh neeeeehh neh.
Once in a while, we lose our grip and get testy, myself included. Overall, however, I think this is a good place to hang out and much good information has changed hands. Also, as a byproduct, many friendships have been forged over the years. I hope that these things will continue
my 2 krona
Hoss
How much clearer things look in the morning.
Gordon, Stan. Thank you for you comments they added to the thread.
Sorry, for my loss of composure. Yesterday was personally a very bad day for me. I should not have let that transfer over here.
-=theron
Gordon, Stan. Thank you for you comments they added to the thread.
Sorry, for my loss of composure. Yesterday was personally a very bad day for me. I should not have let that transfer over here.
-=theron
Wow, I finally got a posting removed. Sorry Theron but some guys really get under my skin. If I get another posting removed do I earn my horns? Just kidding, again Good Job, keep us in line...
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Hey Hoss - I always appreciate your voice of reason, as I'm sure many others on this site do.
I'm not sure who coined the phrase "Without enforcement there is no law/order" - but it makes a lot of sense. As most of you will agree, Theron has done an excellent (and mostly thankless) job as 'Moderator' of this website. As you can imagine, keeping some semblance of civility amongst members of this site is not an easy task, as manifested by Theron's uncharacteristic irate response. Goes to show you that the chest-beating on this site occasionally pushes the tolerance limits of even the most even-keeled, open-minded, laid-back person such as Theron.
Communicating differences in opinion is always a healthy excercise until it degenerates to low-rent mean-spirited attacks on a member/readers' integrity. I hope that we all can keep a proper perspective on our enjoyment of a fiberglass/fake-no-matter-how-you-dress-it-up/car/toy.
It is my hope, Theron, that you'll keep up the the good work you commit to this site for everyone to enjoy!
Peace - Out!
I'm not sure who coined the phrase "Without enforcement there is no law/order" - but it makes a lot of sense. As most of you will agree, Theron has done an excellent (and mostly thankless) job as 'Moderator' of this website. As you can imagine, keeping some semblance of civility amongst members of this site is not an easy task, as manifested by Theron's uncharacteristic irate response. Goes to show you that the chest-beating on this site occasionally pushes the tolerance limits of even the most even-keeled, open-minded, laid-back person such as Theron.
Communicating differences in opinion is always a healthy excercise until it degenerates to low-rent mean-spirited attacks on a member/readers' integrity. I hope that we all can keep a proper perspective on our enjoyment of a fiberglass/fake-no-matter-how-you-dress-it-up/car/toy.
It is my hope, Theron, that you'll keep up the the good work you commit to this site for everyone to enjoy!
Peace - Out!