Figuring it all out! New build. Topic 1. The FRAME.

Your budget, skill level, and planned use will determine what's right for you.  Do you want to buy a bunch of part, a body, an engine, and build it yourself or would you rather by one factory built?  As a compromise between those two extremes Beck sells what they call a pre-assembled body kit that is everything except engine and transaxle.  You can either buy it as a roller or by it on a pallet, but even that latter already has:

1. Body attached to their proprietary tube frame
2. Body painted
3. Full leather interior in place
4. Windshield in place
5. Top in place
6. All electrical system in place
7. Miscellaneous other things done

Completion is muuuuuuch easier than the old boxes of parts and a thank-you-very-much from the manufacturer.  Go to www.beckspeedster.com for details.

 

My car was just such a kit and it was completed at the Carlisle show in '06 where it went from 3 pallets to a driveable, if not 100% finished, car in 16 hours.

To add to Lanes comments you get a tube frame & the lightest and strongest chassis you can get.

I'm not sure about all, but some of the VW Pan cars the front wheels are not centered in the wheel wells.

> On Nov 11, 2015, at 1:43 PM, SpeedsterOwners.com <alerts@hoop.la> wrote:
>

As the owner of 3 Original Speedsters (when they were affordable) and currently own a 1958 356A Super Coupe (that took me ten years from the bare metal to restore) and now have a VW frame Speedster I can tell you IF you want to impress Porsche folks your in for a rude awakening! They will NEVER accept you into the fold of REAL Speedster owners! My Porsche friends call my Speedster a "Spoofster". It's alright. IF you want a car that looks EXACTLY like the original you'll almost need to recreate one and that is insanely expensive (but can be done). But if you want a car that looks a LOT like the original, drives like the Original (or better), and is sane and drivable anywhere a Replica is your ticket. I drive my "Spoofster" MORE than my three other REAL Porsches, and friankly when I'm driving it I don't even think of the differences! Replicas are fun like the original, reasonable, like the original and MOST people don't know the difference! I have a friend with a concourse level 1958 356A Speedster, he's terrified of driving it as the value of his car is now nearly or OVER $500,000! After spending a decade of sweat and grief as I did I KNOW his fears. Trust me Replica owners have MORE fun with their cars than Real Speedstrer owners (except the very few who drive their NEVER restored cars and don't care!) After all a Speedster that is NOT driven is like tits on a Bull! If you love Speedsters as most of us here do just build your own dream and DRIVE it and smile! 

How much better does the steel frame new build frame ride?  I'm thinking amazing compared to the an original.  The new suspensions are really great too with disc brakes too.  It's also a safety thing.  I cannot imagine getting hit by a big SUV, then again, I'm not planning on it. 

There is also the issue of registration.  Wonder if one purchases a VW pan and uses just part of it, then it can be registered in CA easily, and omits the problem with new car build.  I also want to have the exact floor layout as the original 356.  I love the look of the floor covered with the rubber mat as the original 356.  It's just me but I'm not as much in love with the layout with the hand brake where it's positioned. It's not to say you all don't have a great set up, I'm just after the original look if possible.  Thanks for the advice. 

Thanks for the advice Manxman.  Let me please clarify.  I don't really care what the Porsche 356 owners think, rather I'm just in love with the original layout and how it makes "me" feel.  I'm not planning to do the concourse or getting a trophy, rather celebrating an original.  As we know, 150k plus, more like plus plus, it's unrealistic to even enjoy the car if you own the real thing, then why not build and know your car from the beginning, and figuring out what is involved and building it right and budgeting costs and being realistic.  I do have technical ability and lots of connections including a family member who did a complete restore on a 64 Corvette.  Think it was a labor or love, and frustration.  Yes, you can spend a small fortune, but my plan to put together a solid fun to drive and somewhat safe car to drive on the weekends, and enjoy it's shape everytime I'm in my shop; wether I'm woodworking, fixing my bike, or just having a cigar and beer with my buddies.  It's about detail, and this is why I'm asking you all who know these cars.  Thanks for adding to the discussion. I may just pick up a VS or JPS in the end. 

 

The problem here is that the floor pan between a VW and 356 is HUGE! Totally different animal! The floor area on a VW is smaller and way the engine & trans are connected to the frame TOTALLY different! The hand break issue can be resolved but not easily. Maybe someday some one will construct a frame that works like a 356 but to this date I have not seen one. Then again I've drempt of taking a wrecked 356 and reworking the body to fit and.......it's been done and well by a guy who created a Speedster out of a wrecked 356 Coupe (see Jay Leno's Garage) but you have to have really good metal skills! Anything is doable and with Real Speedster going for $200,000 and up you'd think someone would.......

The local Porsche group has been very welcoming to me with my "Spoofster".  Many of them have repeated the same arguments as Manxman, so they understand the value.

There is a company called KitzKrieg.  They seem to build a frame up kit.  Have you seen these guys?

 

Nope! Haven't seen them! Post a link!

I am not familiar with them myself, but as I recall they are one of those places that has good ads but none of us (that I know) have ever seen their product in the flesh.  I recommend sticking with the well know folks that have strong reputations for customer service.  I'm obviously partial to Special Edition (Beck) and I think that you'll find that everyone here on this forum has a high opinion of their customer support.  If your budget supports it, I can also recommend Intermeccanica.  I have no experience with the other manufacturers.

http://www.kitzkrieg.com/the-speedster

If you want a replica Speedster that drives like a dream and looks pretty close to the original, try here:

 

http://www.intermeccanica.com/

 

 

Agreed.  There are lots of nice, and reputable builders out there, and quality people as well.  It's about the love of the shape, simplicity, and something you can have for a lifetime.  Funny thing, they are making electric speedsters!!

4 main ones to consider from low to high in price:

Vintage - Pan - CA
JPS - Pan - CA
Special Edition (Beck) - Frame - IN
Intermeccanica - Frame - Vancouver

I don't think Seduction in NV makes a Speedster, but I could be wrong.

Price, features, quality, design, registration, vehicle usage, climate, builder proximity, customer service, & reputation should all be considered.

Search on this site and you'll find lots of info and opinions.

> On Nov 11, 2015, at 2:52 PM, SpeedsterOwners.com <alerts@hoop.la> wrote:
>

a cheaper way to get a real looking speedster is to buy a 356C Coupe and hacksaw the top.

good solid running C coupes are still "affordable", $40-$70K.

A coupe has a totally different shape in the back.  Cutting off the top could make it look like a Cabriolet, perhaps, but not a Speedster.

Look at the Replica Speedster as a Blank Sheet which you build to your likes and needs and pocket book. The Original Speedster cost $3,000 roughly in 1958 and you could buy a pretty nice Caddy for that! So today you can spend as little as $15,000 to the sky's the limit and create your own dream Speedster. In 1958 the Tach and heater were EXTRA cost at that! LoL The beauty of the Replica Speedster it can be what ever you like. In 1955 to 1958 you got what they gave you, and it was their "Cheap" model!Search Excellence Magaize and you'll see  some REALLY high end Speedster Replicas! People even put 911 engines in them! But you can recreate a Speedster that is pretty damn close to the original in almost every way but the frame! 

For information only, I understand that Kitzkrieg was where Alan Cassels (Mr. A/C) of the old CCW outfit landed.....remember they bought out Thunder Ranch and were the subject of a lot of conversation on this sight regarding their business practices.

 

Don't know if he is still there, but he claimed to have been at one point.

 

Caveat Emptor!

Kitzkrieg mostly just completes the kits not interested in turn key cars.  Think it's easier just to sell the kit and move on.  Easy to book the profit up front vs. builds which sound like they get tricky.  Smart business plan and I like the fact they use the original 356 Pan design plus have lots of protection around them just in case. Must be a solid ride and like the Emory Outlaws shown online.  The modern suspensions, solid frames, and new tech could make the ride awesome. 

 

 

"...a build that celebrates the original, and benefits from technology of 2015..."

There's a company in Germany that builds just such a car that's street-ready and meets all current smog and safety standards. It has 265 hp, does 0-60 in 5.5 seconds, a top speed of 164 mph, gets 25 mpg, and sells for $52,000.

 

That is a lot less than a basic Intermeccanica goes for today (with a 125 hp motor). It handles and stops better, is completely waterproof in the rain, has AC, and is built to even higher standards of fit and finsh. Here's a photo:

 

 

 

 

OK, I'm only half joking here.

 

A big thing to consider is what the final cost will be and how much you're willing to spend on this toy. No matter what route you go, you'll be able to find more driving performance bang for the buck elsewhere. You really do have to be a little crazy to want one of these things.

 

You can start with a basic pan-based car (I have a VS), tweak the drive train a bit for more power and reliability, and end up with something that comes pretty close to the driving experience of the original.

 

But the closer you want to get to original appearance, and the more you want 2015 driving performance, the more you will spend. Very soon, you'll be way over what that brand new German car costs - and you could be out there driving one of those tomorrow.

 

Do your homework, approach this with your eyes open, and choose wisely.

 

 

 

Your point are well well taken. We are all crazy for even considering a 356 at all.  What is it about these cars that has grown men considering melting checkbooks??

"People even put 911 engines in them!"

 

Who would be dumb enough to do that?

 

I have a VW pan based chassis shortened and available soon with wide 5's  4 wheel disc, 10 slot painted wheels and new 185 tires,  AirKewled coil over front end and aluminum pedal - hydraulic assembly....will sell IF I can't locate a classic style body

Looking at this from wanting a replica, but also wanting a reliable and performance rocket along with handling of a modern sports car.

Start by purchasping a vw pan, add a independent front suspension(mendeola  unit or one from germany) along with either a IRS vw setup modified with Porsche 944 trailing arms, or the Mendy rear suspension.

then a five speed trans and either a nice 2 liter type one or a 2.4 type 4.  

Then realize you just spent 25k to 30K and still don't have a body to put on it. 

or Go to your nearest dealer and buy a boxster?

Hey I HAVE a 2013 981 Boxster S and I drive my Spoofster FAR MORE! (UNLESS IT'S FREAKIN FREEZING COLD & Raining!) Of course in Ventura California that's not too often.....unless el Nino aka "Godzilla" as the local Weathermen call it, arrives then were screwed anyway! Can you say "Bathtub"? LoL

No matter how nice the Boxster is, and it's very nice, it doesn't make you think it's 50 years ago. That's what we like, the look and that OLD feel.

 

Kitzkrieg: Run, Forrest, run!

 

Alan, put a big motor on that pan, put a body on, and KEEP the darn thing!

Maybe get a new Vintage and ship it out to your Elf workshop!

This is the whole thing, anyone can have a Boxster and I do, Love it BTW (2005 s with lots of raw power and it goes) but wow, it does' t compare to what you feel when you see this!

 

Agreed.  I have a modern, reasonably high-performance daily drive (BMW 128i) and I love the thing, particularly on track days, but the Speedster is an experience.  Rawness can be more fun than pure performance.

 

 

And I guess that was one of the points I was trying to make (it's often hard to tell with me).

 

You can have a replica that looks almost exactly like an original. You can have one that performs like a modern sports car. You can have one that costs far less than a new Boxster.

 

You just can't have all three in the same car.

 

 

 

 

 

Fast, cheap, good: pick any two.

This is my point exactly.  The modern cars like everything these days is perfect, the cars will drive you, heat your seat, tell you where to turn, and even send you texts... insert robot.  Now add a mechanical art piece that requires every command to work, may need some love, attention, and may even talk back, but gee everyone will notices her.  I visited this car in person last Saturday and it was hard to get it out of my head.  I want something just like her, even if it's fiberglass! 

And just know this, the photo doesn't even do the shape justice. 

 

Wow!  Never been a big fan of meissen blue before, but that is gorgeous!

The topic #1 of new frame vs. pan will be further researched.  I will keep you all updated on my findings.  At the age of 48 and if it's a long term investment, what you you do?  It brings up an argument of value. 

Will speedsters have any chance to retain better value down the road?  Let's say one takes the time and money :-( and detail, what if any argument could be made to value retention?  The argument is that if you build a solid and detailed replica, will it have any chance to retain a better resale?  I know the first hunch is hell no, but give it some thought.  I bought and sold my JPS speedster for 16k 10 years ago and it was a beauty.  Think you could find a perfect shape JPS for 16k?  thoughts. 

Keep in mind, the real deal 356 is just gone crazy, and does this make replicas more sought after and therefore pushing them to another class of build?

 

 

 

This is another John Heckman coming.... I wrote this to John in regards to a coupe he bought that was making him miserable because he wanted it to perform like the technology of a new car - you may benefit from it I don't know...

 

 

These cars will never be what you described or expect it to be. If you cannot lower your expectation level a whole bunch then, IMO, the car will make you miserable. If you keep this car a very dark, gray, rain cloud will form directly over you and a continuous downpour will ensue. Coupe or not you will get soaked. The ever sooo slow wiper speeds will not be enough to clear your vision. After some time in continual dampness mold will set in and you will become physically ill. You will continue to look at your car with admiration as it is beautiful, but, ultimately, you will know what troubles lie beneath. No amount of drug or alcohol will absolve you of those feelings.

 

John, when you cash the check and the car is now gone from your home, a ray of sunshine will break through and finally the clouds will all disappear. Sunny days will lie ahead. Your wife, your family will see and feel an immediate difference. You will return to your former happy and blissful self. There is hope.

 

3 Months into the future... you now have $30+k burning in your pocket. You have begun telling yourself that a convertible will all but eliminate the noises you heard in the coupe. "The Coupe". These words are distasteful to your ears. You do not... You will not be reminded of the past horrors that car brought to you.

 

Sitting in front of the computer screen now... Hmmm, a Vintage just won't do. Can I possibly afford an Intermeccanica? Did I even spell that right? The wife comes in, "Honey what are you doing?" You quickly change to another screen. "Oh, just reading about med flies dear." In a whispered voice you hear Jim Ignacio saying, "The Madness... The Madness" as you drift off in thought about what your next purchase will be...

 Actually, I have owned a JPS in the past, and your points are perfect!  As with anyone who owns a classic or reproduction, there are many downfalls, and areas of concern.  You forgot to mention that smell of gas that can permeate your garage!  

It's those downfalls that actually make me want to consider another Speedster.  Having owned and sold my JPS, I'm sorry I ever sold it.  It didn't have the space to store two cars, but if I did, it would still be with me.  It's a hobby, and way to keep on engaged with life.  If one is buying a Speedster to replace their Boxster then good luck, you survive about 10 months.  Put it in context of what one wants to achieve.  It's a toy, expensive one at that, but so again is a sailboat, Harley, and god forbid an airplane.  Life is so short, enjoy it, don't look back, and with the help of many good resources in CA, then go have some fun exploring what can or maybe won't be.  It's fun, don't you agree. 

I agree brother. I bought mine to drive! I'm finicky about everything on the car and sometimes it wears on me. What I wrote to John were my feelings about my car! I recognized John as having the same issues as me so I thought I would spin it and have a little fun with it.

My observations after 10 years on this site:

1. Buy any makers new car and keep it less than 2 years and you will lose money.

2. Buy any pan based new car with minimal frills and keep it more than 5 years and you will make money. I know new products from VS and JPS have climbed 40-50% since 2005, bringing used values up.

3. Buy IM and your concerns should not include resale, because no matter what, you will take a hit. Keep them forever, as they are works of art. Becks will take a similar initial % hit, but not the dollar loss.

4.  The best IM or Beck values are 4-10 year old versions.  The depreciation hit has been absorbed by the original owner and they have usually been very well kept.

5. When buying new, you will never recover value of high cost options or personalizations. A well kept base 5 year old VS will sell for close to the same as one with ac, stereo, and big motor.

6. Your 10 year old JPS , if well kept, would easily go for 21-24K today.

 

These are just my opinions based on 10 years of involvement with these great little cars, as well as personal ownership of 2 wonderfully trouble free versions from VS and JPS.  I am sure my peers will be glad to point out numerous exceptions but I hope these points will at least be a fairly accurate reference for you.

 

 

 

I couldn't agree with you anymore.  I'm super super finicky too.  

It just takes a day driving one around to appreciate even a Honda Accord, but one must adjust expectations.  It the same thing that happened when I got my Boxster, but do I love it now!! 

A buddy of mine got an Aston DB8 convertible used.  I didn't know what to think when I first saw it.  Geez, what a mistake??  One Saturday drive in the Bay Area and all fears were laid to rest.  Does it make sense, Hell No.  

I'm having fun this time around, and if I do this, it will be something that I'm sure I'll have some of those moments of wonder, but at least I know it now.