Figuring it all out! New build. Topic 1. The FRAME.

Lots going on here, and I wish westcoast the best here.  Sound slike he has the Madness well enough, and the itch will be scratched again, maybe soon.  But if you go into this thing worrying about re-sale value, it is my humble opinion that you have got it wrong.  Unless you are Dr. Clock and the enterprise really is a vocation, then you need to be thinking about the itch, not the $$ value.

Good luck.

If you want to see about making the replica like the original, I'll post a link in a second.

https://www.speedsterowners.com...0#445610807411459070

That guy is really about the detail.  Think a JPS would be easier!  How cool though

I wrote this 3 hours ago (after your last post on the previous page) and see a lot has happened/been said since then. I still think some of it is of value, so here it is, and take from it what you will. Al

WCS (a lot of us are on a first name basis; please insert yours here           )-

I've been following this thread since your firsts post 24 hours ago, and every post afterwards re-confirms what I initially thought- you don't seem to get what owning one of these cars is about. If building a floorpan/frame that more resembles the original turns your crank, fine (I don't see the point, but then I don't see the point of the umbrella parking brake either, as now it's way harder to perform a 180' handbrake turn), it's your car and if that's what you want to do, that's part of the beauty of replica Speedster ownership. Just remember that anything you consciously do to replicate an original- badges and scripts, using a 356 or 912 engine, choosing swingaxle over irs (and the list goes on) will not get you any nearer to being accepted into the P crowd fold. Accept this little bastard (and I'm using that word quite literally here) for what it is- a fun (but fake) throwback into automotive history that's a joy to drive.

Whether you do it up with a stock 1600, 165/15's and drums all the way around, a fire-breathing 2332, discs, who knows what for tires and wheels (a little bit of work and you'll find the handling much better with wider rear tires and wheels) and a 5 speed, something in-between, or make the leap to Subaru or 911 technology, it doesn't matter. What's important is the joy it brings you when driving.

And please don't try to justify this as an investment. Your car will be a hole in the ground just like a boat is a hole in the water where you occasionally throw money. As someone said earlier, if you're just looking at the money, there's more performance in other cars to be had for less. They won't be nearly as much fun, though.

I think what I'm trying to say is do this for the right reasons. If you don't, you may not end up with what you're looking for, you'll sell, and you may not get all your money out of it.

Hope this helps. 

And here is another thread, w/ more pics.

https://www.speedsterowners.com...7#446455307721042137

Meanwhile, has anybody heard from Manny and the Black Sheila.  The threads I can  find date to May.  Wonder how he's doing??

Tough love and unsolicited advice from Uncle Stan:

1) If anything else will scratch the itch, then run for the exit right now. Buy the Z3, Boxter, 911, or Gallardo you really want.

2) If you care what anybody else thinks, you'll never make it for the long-haul. People love the car, but nobody understands it.

3) Be prepared to lose money. Lots and lots of money. If you think about selling before you buy, you've got one foot out the door already.

4) Make the car yours, and you'll keep it forever. Make it what other people like, and you'll dump it next year.

5) Listen to Tom W.'s advice. I actually made a little bit of money on my first two cars. It was only when I knew what I REALLY wanted (and that I wasn't ever going to sell it) that the fiscal dam broke open and my time and treasure poured into the car.

6) If you haven't run off yet: WTTM.

Well said As for never being accepted with the "P" purest. someday I like to build a full chassis with a independent front suspension with a rack and pinion along with a reworked  rear suspension and go to the vintage races and run circles around the "P" crowd.

I'm not sure but I don't think you can build a car with modern suspension, put a vintage body on it and race it against legitimate vintage cars can you? 

Anthony-

Your reply is really well said, but I want to clarify a few things if I may. I'm not looking to gain acceptance from the Porsche crowd, I already own a real Porsche, and so do lots of my buddies.  And I don't believe they own a Porsche to be accepted.  I like the way my Boxster drives on the open road and I rather enjoy the "purest" part of driving a naturally aspirated car basically stock except for an iPod connector.  That will not change. 

I have already owned a Speedster so I have already gotten "what" owning one of these cars is all about.  I drove my JPS for 2 years, but due to lack of storage I sold the car.  When I added up all of the related costs of the car then selling it, the net was I basically broke even, and today the car would be worth about 6k more than I sold it.  So it was lots of fun for zero money which is quite contrary to the "you only lose money" every single time argument.  I regret selling it, but it was not an option to leave it outside. 

I actually loved sharing stories with the Porsche guys when they checked out my car and I proudly shared it's history, purpose, and joy.  Many if not all loved it, and surprise, they would love to have the carefree nature of a Replica Daily driver. 

And as a side, every other car but my Speedster lost money.  Huh. 

The thing for me about the 356 is to celebrate it's design, form, style, and feel. I think there is nothing better then seeing a real or replica that has attention to detail. What's so wrong with that?  If someone likes all of the badging or attention to detail then as you say, let it turn their crank!  Think of this as a hobby in which learning more about the 356 Speedster is actually fun and finding a few original parts or replicating further the look is a great thing. 

If you look out there, some of the 356 kit cars look awful, and they actually denigrate the 356 to the point where it's a shame (my opinion)  No wonder the Porsche (and Porsche Brand) seem to have an issue with some of the kit car Speedsters.  

The beauty of this site is I have been lucky enough to find such a great forum in which people like you are wiling to share super valuable information about building a 356, and guess what, it's been super, and for that I say "thanks".

But why then does this turn into a "you don't get it" argument?  

Each and everyone will have valuable information to share, and guess what?  Maybe at the end of the day another JPS base model or Vintage Speedster will do the trick. Just maybe the extra work and cost will not make it worth the effort, but with an average Speedster going for 150k plus, then I can work on what makes sense. 

I'm not trying to put you down, but why not let this be a positive thing.  I'm soliciting opinions and having some fun.  I appreciate your input Anthony, even it I think the it's ok to turn a hand brake 180'.  How cool is that. 

WCS (we still don't know your first name...)-

  Your issue is with me, not Anthony, so-

This is a positive thing; we just get concerned when someone comes on here figuring he's going to "build a car that can get even a Porsche Purist Excited" (your words, first post of this thread). That, without what you said in your last post, had a number of us wondering. Too many people come on here full of energy and excitement, buy a car, find out there's more to it than just jumping into it at a moment's notice and bombing around with the wind in your hair (most of these are VW based, afterall, and require more maintenance than they are prepared to do or pay for) and find their expectations are too high for what the car can deliver  (for the most part these things are really antique automotive technology and have almost none of the creature comforts of newer cars) and are sold not long after. Most of the guys here feel a "connection" with their car, do at least some level of their own maintenance, and are in tune with the way it runs enough to feel when they're pushing just a little too hard and feel the power reduction and exhaust tone change as it starts to run a little "too hot" or they'll notice pretty quickly when a ball joint starts to get loose or a shock goes soft.  

Everyone here just wants you to get involved with one of these cars for the right reasons, and it seems you are.

WTTM! Al

Al-

Mostly I was having fun with you all.  I know exactly what you mean, and this is why "if" I buy another one of these I will do so with eyes so wide open. 

What I'm figuring out so far is that some attention to detail can be either a good thing or bad thing as in $$$. 

In the past few days with everyones kind help is that keep your expectations in check. 

The reason I placed the expectation that even a purist would be excited was that some detail and thought can go a long ways.  Check out the Green Car I posted.  It' a replica with a cool steering wheel, and original turn signal and some knock off Fuchs rims.  Little attention to detail, but it looks really great. 

At the same time, I'm looking for help, and asking about detail and what it means. 

It's the same as with my house remodel.  I'm putting some time into researching it, asking question, educating myself, and making some smart buys.  So far, my budget for the remodel has been slashed by 75k.. Yes, I live in the Bay Area, it's crazy crazy here, but I'm being realistic, and finding out asking questions helps.  At the same time, I really like the feedback.  So thanks for clarification. 

btw-  before I buy anything I'm going to So. CA to see 4 shops, drive more than one Speedster, then see how I feel after my field trip.  I'm really looking forward to it, it's called fun. 

No, it's called "The Madness"

And as I noted above, seems you are right on the beam here.  I owned two coupes back in the day (wish I had one of then yet -- sigh -- ) so I had a pretty good idea what the VW powered replica was going to be.  And I'll grant you, money is important, and one needs to be prudent.  It really is all about expectations, and managing them appropriately.  You are  Porche-o-phile, obviously, and a Speedster owner of record, so I have no worries about your intentions or expectations.  I, and others here, will be interested in how your search turns out.  Keep us posted.  And if you have some pics of your stable, we will gladly consume those.  We love the pics . . .

I'll be sure to post ideas, questions, photos, and more as this journey continues, and thanks to all in helping out. 

I do not know about the rest of you guys but i am like a kid in a candy store right now. i have restored 2 67 Gto's ,an alfa gtv, a firebird formula and build a cmc speedy, and now working on my 1947 cessna and my IM speedy and nothing is more fun then tinkering with the building of it all. So much has changed over the years and so much has remained the same. I never worried about the purist and i had two shirts people used to love at car rallies one said ''porsche made with vw parts'' and the other one said "Volkswagon" Porsches Daddy. I couldn't tell you how many people asked for them. All i can tell you is that the building is as fun as the driving. ok I'm done, i have to post something else in the engine section, good luck.

More on building.  Is there a reason for the 356 kit rear wheel to be higher (lifted) than the original wheel set up?  Many of the replicas have a higher clearance, especially in the rear section where as a original seems to cover the wheel.  I've included a photo of an original.  If sure it's an easy answer.  

It profile of tire is definitley different as many new cars enjoy the handling of the wider tires.   

insert first name here - It just depends on how low you set the suspension. If you run a deep sump (a must for any engine that revs quicker and/or higher than stock) rear suspension height becomes more of an issue. Dry sumping the engine is one way around it.

Can't agree more about the "Feeling" of a 356. Like many of you all I own a real 356 and as well modern Porsches. As we have discussed often the Replica will NEVER be an exact Replica but a Modern interpretation of what a Speedster was. What I do enjoy is the original reason for owning a Speedster. It was and IS a Spartan, no non sense, pure Sports Car! Yeah it's nice on a cold windy rainy day to drive my 2013 Boxster S with PDK, heated seats, Boise system, cup holders and all the crap we don't really need but age and rationality asks for. But then when I get in my Speedster and it's like the days when I owned the "Real Deal" and your actually feeling "a part" of the car, connected and knowing EVERYTHING you do effects the way the car performs and reacts you appreciate it! You can actually feel connected to something YOU created and often maintain unlike the hollow feeling you get when an engine indicator light comes on and you feel "oh well I'll have to go get screwed by Porsche AGAIN"! The JOY of the 356 was you could ACTUALLY work on it by yourself (and the owners manual told you how to do it). You particpated in the WHOLE and knew you were the important part of the interaction. Now you just call Porsche, have the car towed in and watch in fear the bill arrive! 

Liabilities of dry sumping?  I'm learning lots.  Thanks!

There is no downside.

(except cost)

I did it. It's not easy. It's not cheap. It's completely worth it, IMHO.

Can you go into more detail about what you did, and how you did.  It's greatly appreciate. 

https://www.speedsterowners.com/topic/dry-sump-pain

I did this in 2012. I've made a lot of changes since then, but the dry-sump part has not changed.

Dry sump systems has their advantages.  The increase in ground clearance, large oil capacity, high volume and pressure, removes the issues of oil moving away from pickup under fast and tight turns, looks cool!

when setting up the dry sump system there are some things to be addressed.  

Oil tank, size, location, fitting location, are you going to have a custom one built and fitted to the car? Or use a off the shelf design. 

Routing oil lines, AN fittings and hose-which type? Push on, or crimped or reusable?

what brand or design oil pump. One scavenge port or two.

Oil pump clearance in relation to your header?

Are you using the stock pickup in the case or autocraft pickup from the bottom of case. 

Are you going to scavenge at the valve covers also?

include a shut off valve if tank is mounted higher than oil pump?

i suggest all your scavenge lines be AN 10 or AN 12. Perruse line can be AN8.

put a filter on the scavenge side and on the pressure side before the cooler. 

Best set up is a scat filter mount with a bypass built in the housing.

Also keep in mind, with all that additional oil capacity the oil will take longer to warm up.

Anthony raises a lot of great questions and points. He's clearly done this before, and is a guy who ought to be listened to. This is stuff I obsessed over for a very long time. The way I did it is not the only way to do it, by any means. I would suggest anybody contemplating doing this read a lot, and talk to people who have done it.

I'll explain how I did it in red, inserted into Anthony's text:

when setting up the dry sump system there are some things to be addressed.  

Oil tank, size, location, fitting location, are you going to have a custom one built and fitted to the car? Or use a off the shelf design. I made my own tank. It is possible to use a 911 oil tank, but I wanted the tank to fit perfectly into the space I had for it, and I did not want the filter where Porsche put it (I am using my JayCee filter base for the Accusump input, as well as my over-pressure bypass). Tank design is really really critical. You want to reduce foaming, and always keep the pick-up under the level of any oil with bubbles in it. The design of the reservoir is critical in this regard. I looked long and hard at all options before I built mine.

Routing oil lines, AN fittings and hose-which type? Push on, or crimped or reusable? I used AN fittings, reusable. I did not use silicone hoses, but I should have.

what brand or design oil pump. One scavenge port or two. Bugpack. One scavenge port. More gets pretty long.

Oil pump clearance in relation to your header? Anthony has clearly done this before. The header clearance is where this project gets expensive. I had Tiger from A1 make not one, but two custom headers to clear the pump. I wanted at least 1" of clearance, but sometimes you get what you get. The first was a modified A1 "low-down" (what is in the link I put up above), the second (what I'm running now) was a modified sidewinder. Expect to have to talk Tiger into making this, and doing a bit of modification on it once it comes. Really, nobody wants to talk about dry-sumping, unless you are running a 400 hp 3L turbo on a Pauter case.

Are you using the stock pickup in the case or autocraft pickup from the bottom of case. I'm using a stock pick-up. The Auto-Craft pick-up is better, but hangs lower. I'm happy with what I've got, but I still wonder about it sometimes when I'm nodding off the sleep. As an aside, I'm telling you gentlemen: Anthony REALLY knows what he's talking about.

Are you going to scavenge at the valve covers also? I didn't. This is overkill (IMHO) for a street motor that gets shifted at 6500 RPM. It makes the pump REALLY long, and makes header clearance almost impossible (unless you are OK with the collector being 6" behind the car) if you do it.

include a shut off valve if tank is mounted higher than oil pump? I did not, and it has not proven to be a problem. It is a problem for some people. I worked pretty hard to hold the tank low, but it's almost always going to be higher than the sump. If it isn't, there's very little advantage to doing it. I probably get some drain-back, but I pre-lube with the Accusump and have never had a problem with over-filling the sump. Design of the oil tank is pretty critical here.

i suggest all your scavenge lines be AN 10 or AN 12. Perruse line can be AN8. I used 8 AN lines everywhere. I know I was supposed to use 10s or 12s for the scavenge lines, but this has worked fine for me for 15K mi or so. Again the modest red-line of a street engine means that some of the rules of thumb can be ignored to some extent. Everybody agrees that the pressure side is fine with 8 AN.

put a filter on the scavenge side and on the pressure side before the cooler. This is the main place where I parted company with the "conventional wisdom", and the only place I might disagree with Anthony. I didn't do this either, but this one I didn't do for what I think are very good reasons. For why, see below:

Best set up is a scat filter mount with a bypass built in the housing. I really like the JayCee filter base, also with the built in pressure bypass. This is why I put the filter on the pressure side of the system. All of my pressure control hardware is done at the filter base. I bypass back to the sump if the pressure rises above 80 psi (I'm going to lower that to 60 psi someday soon) on the pressure side of the pump (what the galleys and oil cooler seals see). I dump the Accusump into the filter base (which remember is on the pressure side) so that if my oil pressure drops below 20 psi, it'll feed directly into the galley. I can do none of this if the filter is on the scavenge side of the system, as I want to relieve pressure at the highest point (on the pressure side of the pump), and I want to keep that side pressurized with the Accusump in the event of a loss of pressure (or on start-up).

Also keep in mind, with all that additional oil capacity the oil will take longer to warm up. Amen, brother. In cold weather, it takes a looooong time to heat up 9 qts of Brad Penn.

This is a cool project. For me, love means never having to worry about exposing your oil pickup to foam. Oil in the galleys all the time (no matter what) is the main reason to do this. Doing that without resorting to an oil pan 2" off the deck is the only way to get low, and still be able to actually DRIVE the car.

Thanks Stan!! Appreciate the comments. reading about your setup tells me you thought it out very well.

your system seems to work fine.

inregards to the filters. Yes two are an over kill, but the purpose of filtering on the scavenge is to catch any debris before it goes in the cooler or tank. ( it's a PITA to clean them if something ever lets go. This also keeps debris from damaging the pump. As for the filter on the pressure side, whether one uses a scat or Jaycee bypass setup you are able to filter the oil before going in the motor and regulate the oil pressure.

So just when you think that "The Madness" has got you pretty bad, you read another of Stan's technical posts to remind you that you have a loooooong way to go to get as deeply into "The Madness" as Stan has.  

But I bet he's having a lot of fun doing it.......  

Yeah. Just what I was after: to become the cautionary tale of "what can happen if you don't look out".

So, I sold my house last month, which means I sold my garage and my hobby shop. My speedster is sitting on an enclosed trailer an an undisclosed missile silo on the great plains, guarded round the clock by a fierce 3-legged Australian Blue Healer (who also happens to be blind, as fate would have it).

I'm pretty sure that keeping me from spending another winter on my back under a car with absolutely nothing wrong with it, lighting small piles of money on fire, was what Mrs. Galat had in mind with the change.

I have no idea what I'm doing. Winter is coming, and I have no shop.

Stan, at any time in the past few months has Mrs. Galat used the word, 'intervention' ?

.....change is good and a bigger shop. is better~

Come to think of it....

It'll be touch to top the 3-car garage space I had. Heated, piped for air, blast cabinet (with a compressor big enough to drive it), Safety-Klean parts washer, 4 (count 'em, 4!) stainless steel work stations, and about 60 linear feet of cabinets. It all stayed.

If I can find a place with the room for a lift, I'll be better off. Otherwise... this is what comes from "down-sizing".

Regardless, this winter is shot. Even if I score a new place, it'll take me months to set it up.

Wait!

Aren't you out there towards "Grumpy Old Men" country?

You could spend the winter Ice Fishing!!

There is always the foothills in CA. Some places near Terry with large shops ?? No more shoveling snow?

We don't get snow hereof any significance and there is PLENTY of HVAC work to be found here - Mostly the AC part.

El Frazoo,

I am still around I do occasionally pop in .... I will be updating on progress soon. Just crazy busy with personal matters.

Manny

We are located in AZ, not NV and we do make a Speedster

Tom,

If the idea of people surviving winter in Arizona or Nevada is enviable (and pissable) then consider BruceW lounging in Baja California amidst a grove of coconut palms, mango trees, and grapefruit trees shading his patio from the intense hot sun...Oh, and a short stroll from there to the surf, and with a mere whistle the  stripped bass and lobsters jump out of the water at his flip-flop shod feet!!!

You're killing me here, Tony.

I keep telling you, Stan. Come on down to the Emerald Coast and let me show you around. Plenty of room at our place to hang your hat while you get acquainted with the area. Pretty sure we could convince Wolfgang to join in.