Fire suppression systems

Calling @Stan Galat

@LI-Rick posted:

Calling @Stan Galat

Dennis -- just do a site search for Blazecut.

I did look at both sites. Just don’t see a difference in my novice eyes between two systems besides price. Products looks identical except for maybe total amount of agent in each 6ft tubing.
Thanks

He means "put Blazecut in the search box on this site."

Thanks! My bad.

I should have been less cryptic and more specific, but we've talked about Blazecut a lot on this site and there is more than one opinion.

Mine is this: I know of nobody anywhere whose car has actually been saved with a Blazecut or Blazecut-style system. I'm not saying it's not a good idea, but there are guys who make some pretty big claims ("Blazecut woulda' saved it!") about something with which they have no experience.

There is a surprising (at least to a skeptic like me) amount of retardant in the tube. 3/4 PEX tubing has an I/D of .681" (which is apx 1.07" of area). 6 ft of tubing is about 77 cubic inches of retardant. For comparison, a 2.5 lb extinguisher cylinder is about 3" round and 12" tall, so the total volume of retardant is about 56-1/2 cubic inches.

... but again, nothing I've ever seen offers real-world testing or even testimonials regarding the effectiveness of Blazecut or the copies, and I have a strong allergic reaction to hyperbole.

😆thanks bud. When I was in high school and college back in 60s and early 70s  I owned two VW bugs and had many friends with beetles or  Ghias. Probably due to my naïveté or just plain  ignorance never ever thought about fires or knew anyone that had their vehicle catch fire. But now since I bought a Speedster Replica I’ve heard several horror stories. In fact one last night at a VW club meeting. I did find several posts on this site about Blazecut.
I truly appreciate your input!

I would assume it works. If it can put out a fire in a Vw bus, I’m sure it will put out a fire in a speedster.

https://youtu.be/R6R2qOZXNf8?si=1eWerJArJNn16Nu4

Uncle Stan wrote: “ Mine is this: I know of nobody, anywhere, whose car has actually been saved with a Blazecut or Blazecut-style system.“

This is true, for this site at least.  But, by the same token, we know of nobody, Stan included, at least on this site, that has saved their Speedster/Spyder with a regular canister fire extinguisher for an engine fire.  Not that they haven’t been out there, but that we haven’t heard of them on here (We usually just see the charred remains).

If you get a gasoline-based fire in the engine compartment of a fiberglass speedster, you have less than 30 seconds to notice it (Smoke trailing from the rear of the car), stop the car, get out of the car, grab your fire extinguisher, open the engine cover, hold the cover open with one hand, while avoiding getting burnt and blasting the engine with your extinguisher (which is usually a two hand procedure).  After 30 seconds, your car will probably become toast.

Not saying it can’t happen that you can save your car, just that it is really hard to pull it off.  

Will a Blazecut save your Speedster/Spyder?  Nobody really knows, since, thankfully, there is  no reliable evidence, one way or the other.

Will a regular gasoline-based fire extinguisher be effective under the same circumstances?  Nobody really knows, since there is no reliable evidence there, either (as far as I know).

I don’t really care if Stan is right or not, but I would love to know if a Blazecut or a regular extinguisher is effective at all (and by how much) so we could all understand and move in an effective direction.

Some of us have on-board extinguisher systems which undoubtedly save about 20 seconds and seem to be very effective in race applications, but only a few of us have that sort of system and, again, no real world experience.

Just for the record, I have a 3-meter Blazecut system surrounding my Speedster engine.  I have no idea if it will effectively put out an engine fire or not, and will continue to be questioning that until I have some concrete data one way or the other.

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@Stan Galat posted:

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... I have a strong allergic reaction to hyperbole...

No problem, Stan.

Blazecut is 100% gluten free.

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@Sacto Mitch posted:

.No problem, Stan.

Blazecut is 100% gluten free.

... but is it hypoallergenic? You know, my allergies and all...

In favor of the extinguisher is that you might possibly be able to help fight someone else's fire, which you can't say about Blazecut.

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Stan, they say it's endothermic.

Better check with your doctor.

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@Gordon Nichols posted:

I don’t really care if Stan is right or not, but I would love to know if a Blazecut or a regular extinguisher is effective at all (and by how much) so we could all understand and move in an effective direction.

Some of us have on-board extinguisher systems which undoubtedly save about 20 seconds and seem to be very effective in race applications, but only a few of us have that sort of system and, again, no real world experience.

I'm trying to be fair here, and I would also like to know for sure if these things work in real life or not. I've never said they don't. I've said I've never found any independent test or testimonial from somebody whose car was saved (here or elsewhere). Even the linked video had "Blazecut" fingerprints all over it.

Regarding the second highlighted phrase regarding on-board racing systems-- there is ample real-world experience to make a definitive endorsement. Every racing body I know of requires an on-board fire suppression system, none of them accept Blazecut or similar.

YMMV.

In my engine compartment, I have the fire suppression device that was installed in IM cars. It is a cylinder about 1 1/2" x 18" filled with halon with a nozzle at each end.  I don't know if it is still available.  I think it is a Safecraft 50-1020. It wasn't listed on their website at the time I bought it.

I also have an Element extinguisher mounted at the front edge of the driver's seat.

I happen to have some experience with installed suppression systems.

In my first Spyder, I had a 5 pound Halon system. It had a nozzle directed at each carburetor, and a nozzle under the dash in case of an electrical fire. When I crashed from that idiot who cut me off, the system got activated. The crash pulled the cable. The Halon was released, which actually caused me to pass out for ten seconds or so. There was no fire. There was no gasoline released that I know of.

In the Formula Vee, we are required to have the same type of system, where the pull handle is clearly marked from outside the car for the rescue/corner workers. The system is much smaller, about 2.5 to 3 pounds. We simply don't have much room in an 800 pound car. The cylinder is about the size of two one pound coffee cans stacked one on the other. Two nozzles, one by the driver and one by the engine.

Either way, these systems do work and have extensive testing and real-world usage. Otherwise they wouldn't be required or have FIA standards to follow.

Stan never said Blazecut doesn't work, he simply states that there is no real-world data.

Just to clarify, when I said "no real world experience" with on-board suppression systems I meant in a Speedster/Spyder.  I did not remember that Danny's went off when he crashed, so there is one data point, but thankfully, he didn't have a fire.  I honestly believe that his system would work perfectly in a fire because he's done a good, thoughtful install.

And yes, I know that all race cars use them so I'm confident that they would work well in a Speedster/Spyder road car, too.

I used to have my fire extinguisher mounted between the seats and behind the e-brake.  When I installed my larger seats, it would no longer fit there so I was looking at ahead of the shifter, or mounted to the inner wall to the left of my knee and a few other places.  So I asked my neighbor, who is the Deputy Fire Chief in town, where he would recommend.  Without hesitating he pointed to the sill area at the rear of the door, here:

His rational was;  It's out of the way until you need it and when you're getting out of the car it is right there to grab and go.  Then he ran a scenario for my car with me:

"You're driving and see or smell smoke.  You pull over and stop and get out, shut off the engine to stop fuel flow, grab the bottle, pull the pin, pull the hood release and then what? "

I said I have to grab the hood to open it up and then hold it in place with a little pin inside the compartment.

He said, "That won't do at all.  First, the grill may probably be hot to handle.  Second, when you open the cover the flames are fed more air and expand - You'll never get to the pin.  Third, even your small extinguisher will be hard to handle and aim one handed.  It's an OK size, but you can't reliably aim it and hold the cover open at the same time.  All that means you just took too long, you can't hold the cover open and your car is toast. "   😳  

Then he asked how difficult it would be to make the cover fully open by itself when released, saving lots of seconds.  I think that would be difficult, at least on a CMC, but some on here have done it with a small liftgate piston - Certainly something to think about and research on here.

In the end, he recommended a system similar to what Danny and a few others have installed.  When I pointed out my Blazecut he said, "Well, the concept is OK, but I would have to see how it works in several different scenarios before I could recommend it to anyone."

So that's where I'm at.  I have not yet installed a permanent suppression system (but it's on my bucket list) and am still carrying the extinguisher you saw above until I get around to something better.  

I'll also be looking on here for piston to open the rear cover when released.  I guess I needed a good Spring car project.

Here is an easy addition that might help with the fire extinguisher. Given that you can release the hood catch from inside the car AND that you can lift the hood either quickly or by using a glove or rag as a pot holder, if you have a spring loaded pin to catch the hinge, you could have the hood up in a second, and it would stay up.  I have one of these, and i got it from a guy here on SOC who made and sold them.  Cant recall who that was and if still available.  What I can say is that this very simple "trick" is the bomb.  Reaching to to fiddle with the pin on a chain and find the hole to stick it in when you really can't see shyt, let alone with the engine compartment ablaze, is, well, a non-starter.  I highly recommend.

I keep a fire protective heavy glove under my seat. To be clear you’re saying you use a conventional Halotron BC type fire extinguisher since you can open the lid from inside and have a spring loaded catch for lid? I have all the same features on my car. I wasn’t sure what you were referring to that you bought on SOC.
thanks for the input.

Dennis: I'm just speaking to the the little spring loaded thingie that you attach to the hinge.  You do have to drill a hole in one half of the hinge assembly to mount the gadget.  And it just snaps in the hole in the other half of the hinge bracket when you open the hood.  You do have to reach in and pull the spring loaded pin out with a little ring attached in order to close, but that can easily be done by feel without looking. Genius, really.  Only surpassed by the original Porsche hinge mechanism that came on the old 356s. With those, you just opened the hood, and the hinge caught and held the hood open.  To close you just lifted the hood up, the catch released ( by magic I think) and the hood could then be closed.   Some have used these or used variations on this design.  A lot more trouble and expense.

I could send a picture ?? ...  Maybe someone else here with better memory and SOC computer skills can find the thread where I saw this.

I have those features in my car.
I guess I wasn’t clear. Sorry.
my question is once lid is open you are just using a conventional fire extinguisher, correct?
you don’t have a tubular fire suppression system like Blazecut in your car??

correct, just a red hand held and operated fire extinguisher that I carry inside the car.

Thanks bud

Spring-loaded thingies as described by El Frazoo can be purchased from McMaster Carr.  They have several types available.

That looks one helluva lot easier than installing a gas strut.

Here’s the info on that hinge pin.

https://www.speedsterowners.com/topic/engine-lid-pin

I had a gas strut that  I removed when installing this.

The gas strut seemed to be pushing the lid to the rear when closed.

My thingie plunger stays in the retracted position if I rotate it. What I have been doing is retracting it when I am ready to close the lid. Then, When I open the lid I have to rotate it again to release the plunger.

Now, after reading what @El Frazoo posted I hoped  I wouldn't need to rotate it. I would just need to retract it and lower the lid a bit. Then, when lifting the lid the plunger would go into the hinge hole.

Unfortunately, when I tried that, the plunger slipped off the edge of the hinge, preventing me from opening the lid more than a few inches. Fortunately, that was enough for me to reach in and retract the plunger.

@Gordon Nichols posted:

When I pointed out my Blazecut he said, "Well, the concept is OK, but I would have to see how it works in several different scenarios before I could recommend it to anyone."

Not to beat a dead horse, or to puff up my chest or anything -- but this is EXACTLY what I was trying (and succeeding, I thought) to say before we started all this, Gordon.

... perhaps if I were a Deputy Fire Chief...

People come to this site looking for answers, and far too often we give them authoritative responses when we have no idea if what we are recommending actually works or not. We do this with everything from hardtops to holes in firewalls to fire suppression options.

It's OK to say, "I don't know".

You would probably be a good Fire Chief.

We’ve actually been agreeing with each other throughout this thread (I went back and checked).

I’ll be OK, for now, with one of those auto-latching pins mentioned by Kelly and then see what makes sense for an on-board system some time in the future.  

Warm weather is returning, so it’s time to get back out on the road!

Eh, your probably right, El Gordo. Regardless, we're too solid for anything to bug me even if we disagreed.

Regarding the fire chief thing-- I'd love the fire fighting.

However, I'd hate my life (and couldn't do it) with the fire nannying thing. I tell myself that somebody needs to (although in my heart I'm unconvinced)... but it could never be me.

Kind of on-topic, has anyone installed a spring thingy so that when the engine deck lid release cable is pulled the lid will actually pop up slightly and remain just slight ajar?  

I know a gas shock (piston?) device could be installed which would fully open the lid upon release, but in the event of an engine fire I would not trust it to work.  In fact it might work against any effort to open the lid.  Opening the lid in an emergency would be aided I think if it popped up and sat just above being flush.  

@Jon T, see this thread:

https://www.speedsterowners.co...1#599172805040851541

In my contributions, you can see that I tried a gas strut, spring, and finally a Fiat latch.

The Fiat required extreme effort to pull the knob to open.  So, I removed the pop-up bits and installed then on my original latch.

Thanks Michael.

I will need to study that thread and take a better look at my latch.  That’s what I’d like to accomplish - something that would cause the lid to raise just a little bit when released so it would be slightly easier to open if urgency is needed.

With my simple mind, I was wondering if a torsion spring could be fitted to one or both hinges, and be just the right shape to only engage when the lid is almost closed, and have just the right spring constant to help pop up the lid when released but not make closing the lid too labored.  The upside is no need to mess with the existing latch or cable.  The down side is probably a lengthy trial and error process and a final solution that is not elegant in execution or appearance.  

Lots of hoods and trunk lids have (had?) big watch springs on em, like these?

@edsnova posted:

Lots of hoods and trunk lids have (had?) big watch springs on em, like these?

Did you forget a picture?

In order to get Stan what he needs here, I wonder if anyone here would be willing to offer his/her car up for a demonstration of  how a BlazeCut might work?  I think actual firefighters do this sort of thing all the time.  Go to a special place where they set fires and then put them out, for training purposes.  We could have a system installed then light off a gas fire inside the engine compartment, and then see how it all goes.  Safely of course, with actual firemen at the ready to help if things get out of hand.  Perhaps @Cory Drake could help us arrange this??

@Lane Anderson, click the word these

I was thinking more along the lines of something like one of these:

Finding the right one might be a larger effort and result in a lesser outcome than replacing the latch.

@El Frazoo posted:

In order to get Stan what he needs here, I wonder if anyone here would be willing to offer his/her car up for a demonstration of  how a BlazeCut might work?  I think actual firefighters do this sort of thing all the time.  Go to a special place where they set fires and then put them out, for training purposes.  We could have a system installed then light off a gas fire inside the engine compartment, and then see how it all goes.  Safely of course, with actual firemen at the ready to help if things get out of hand.

Seriously, fire houses everywhere are always interested in training their people. This could be done at almost any house anywhere. I know of at least three local to me that would probably do this. They love this stuff.

Whomever wants to test a Blazecut could sacrifice one "for the cause".