Fire suppression systems

The hard part, imho, will be obtaining the sacrificial Speedster.

I'll happily volunteer (and indeed, have been volunteering) to be the control group -- the cars running without Blazecut®, as I have since 2000.

I like living on the edge, and am a wild and crazy guy. Sometimes I run with scissors, and never wait a half hour after eating to go swimming. I may even put a plastic fuel filter in my engine compartment, just to tempt fate.

So far, so good.

Per Gordon Nichols "This is true, for this site at least.  But, by the same token, we know of nobody, Stan included, at least on this site, that has saved their Speedster/Spyder with a regular canister fire extinguisher for an engine fire.  Not that they haven’t been out there, but that we haven’t heard of them on here."

Here is a data point.

In 1998 I had an engine failure on my Spyder (California kit car Beck #134) and a rod went through the case and caused a fire from the hot oil.  It was early on a Sunday morning with light traffic so I was able to pull over to the right shoulder, stop, raise my deck lid and put the fire out with a hand held fire extinguisher.  No permanent damage to the fiberglass.  I have always placed my extinguisher in a similar place to what Gordon's neighbor recommends.   It worked!

@Stan Galat posted:

I'll happily volunteer (and indeed, have been volunteering) to be the control group -- the cars running without Blazecut®, as I have since 2000.

I like living on the edge, and am a wild and crazy guy. Sometimes I run with scissors, and never wait a half hour after eating to go swimming. I may even put a plastic fuel filter in my engine compartment, just to tempt fate.

So far, so good.

You're such a rebel. I bet you put mayonnaise on your french fries.

@Panhandle Bob posted:

You're such a rebel. I bet you put mayonnaise on your french fries.

Horseradish sauce. I'm a madman.

Hey, I just received a couple of those spring-loaded-plunger-thingies for holding the engine cover open when raised.  I ordered it Monday afternoon from McMaster-Carr and it arrived here mid-morning, today.  Not bad!

Pulled the cover off, drilled and tapped the hinge using the same hole I used for the original hold-up pin as a guide and put it all back together.  It was then that I discovered that I had one English bolt and one Metric bolt.  WTF??  I now have two matching Metric bolts on the hinges.  I can't explain the mix-up, other than Celestial Gremlin Shenanigans or something.  

Anyway, it was a 30 minute install and works great.  Thanks to those who posted about  these little spring loaded pins.  They're the Cat's Meow and I should have installed one years ago.

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@Gordon Nichols posted:

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....It was then that I discovered that I had one English bolt and one Metric bolt....

It's a big tent, Gordon.

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@Sacto Mitch posted:

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It's a big tent, Gordon.

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Yeah, and most of the tent is Metric.

And then there's us, here, in the good ol' US of A......   At least we're inching toward a Metric world, one product at a time.

One bolt was coarse thread, the other fine, too.  Now they both match.  At least they were both the same diameter.

The good news was that they both fit 14mm wrenches.

"At least we're inching toward a Metric world..."

Hah!  I see what ya did there.

@Gordon Nichols posted:

And then there's us, here, in the good ol' US of A......   At least we're inching toward a Metric world, one product at a time.

As somebody who works on equipment in supermarkets and on commercial spaces on a daily basis, I can tell you that in 2024, we still don't carry any metric tools on the trucks. Not one.

Some things are progressing towards metric (automobiles, in particular), but lots and lots of industrial and heavy commercial equipment has not one metric bolt on the entire thing. My scissor-lift, forklift, etc: 100% SAE. Likewise, every refrigeration rack, case, and condenser. Cardboard balers, etc.? SAE.

Just sayin’.

@Lane Anderson posted:

"At least we're inching toward a Metric world..."

Hah!  I see what ya did there.

Y'all ever heard of Metrinch tools ? I have a set of combo wrenches and a socket set. They work on Imperial or Metric size fasteners. Not ideal for everyday stuff, but they do a great job in some odd applications. Stan would hate them....

The interesting thing is they work on the flats of a bolt head or nut, not on the fragile pointed edges and are thus more forgiving on the parts having pressure put on them. I had the North American rights for distributorship offered to me a few years back but the Euro patents were about expire a few years later. Available on Amazon now.

They work on British Standard too, along with Metric and the stone aged inches system.

Come to think of it.....we just got home a few hours ago after 3 days of negotiating idiots trying to drive on I 95 and I 81. I 95 was the worst. I did notice that the mileage markers had for example,,,,next exit   18.5 miles, not 18 1/2 miles like years ago. Are they trying to sneak up on you ?

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I hope I'll be forgiven for leaving this current drift of thread and returning to an earlier stage of drift wherein Gordon celebrated setting his hinge bolts right (I think it was the drift just before this most recent drift about metric vs SAE, which, admittedly, is a thoroughly respectable place for a thread to drift).

Anyway, this reminded me of some grief I encountered several months ago that also involved drifting threads, but not the kind of threads that forum topics are made of.

My grief was caused by using threaded bolts as hinge pins (like Gordon's engine lid hinges) only in another place on my Speedy — the hinges for the front deck lid. I was left thinking using threaded bolts for hinges is a generally bad idea, and for several reasons.

First, threads aren't designed for this purpose, are much more abrasive on the mating surface than a proper hinge pin, so will wear that surface much quicker. Second,  the threads themselves will wear quickly, causing the hinge to loosen up prematurely.

In my case, the deck lid had become prone to rattling from any vibration in the front of the car. The threads had worn down flat, making the hinges loose.

My solution was to use a partially-threaded bolt chosen so the part that passed through the hood brackets was the unthreaded part of the bolt. I stacked up some washers so the nut would apply the needed compression while gripping on the threaded portion of the bolt.

There are probably better terms for a 'partially threaded bolt', but if I call it one of those, you won't know what I'm talking about. If I say 'partially threaded bolt', you will.

Besides, this will give others the opportunity to pipe up on the proper term for a 'partially threaded bolt' and further add to the drift in this thread.

That may be one of the best thread drifts (literally) ever. Don't try this at home, kids -- there's only one Mitch Toll, the sage of Sacto. They really are called "partial thread bolts".

PS: What you really wanted were shoulder bolts.

Now, now, don't be so hasty. I always thought they were called "airframe bolts". But yeah, shoulder bolts are designed for movement.

Example: https://www.pegasusautoracing.....asp?GroupID=ANBOLTS

They are expensive, and have a "grip range" so you have to get that part right, but there are a LOT of choices.

I was literally looking at this stuff yesterday. The Formula Vee uses mostly SAE fasteners, except the VW parts of the engine/transmission stuff which is metric.

But the bellhousing where rubber trans mounts usually go? Drilled out to fit 3/8" SAE to bolt directly to the frame(There are no rubber mounts, nor ground straps needed, either). There are metric adapters threaded into the wheel cylinders. They adapt to AN-3 braided hose(which is SAE. AN stands for Army Navy). The entire rest of the braking system is SAE, AN-3 hose and 3/16" Ni-Copp brake lines, and Tilton and Wilwood(Girling copy) master cylinders, and a Wilwood slave for the clutch.

The thing I was looking for: beam bolts. I had to replace my beam, and two of the bolts stripped upon removal. VW uses 12mm, so you drill the beam slightly for 1/2". They are 1/2-20 thread(fine or SAE), as opposed to 1/2-13(coarse, standard, or USS) which is WAY cheaper and available. But race cars usually use fine threads. Fine thread bolts are stronger, as the threads aren't cut as deep as standard, leaving more diameter to the bolt. You really shouldn't use all-threaded bolts, the threads eat into stuff as explained in the posts above. These bolts are 6" long, so not available just anywhere. Also, you need to specify Grade 5 or Grade 8(grade 8 is stronger). Grade 5 is medium carbon steel, grade 8 is alloy steel.

From Pegasus Racing, these are about $25 each! Yeah, no. So I went to my local Mom-and-Pop. He didn't have them, but sent me to another guy who did. I got 4 bolts, 8 washers, 4 regular nuts, and 4 nylocks. All of it is pretty yellow zinc plated, too. $20 total, that's MUCH better. List price for each bolt was $7, so I guess cash is King? I figured it should have been about $35.

Why did I get regular and ny-loc nuts? Did you know that ny-loc are technically designed for one-time use? By buying regular nuts, I can fit and adjust/shim the beam, then install it permanently with the new ny-locs.

And about tools and such, I am NOT a fan of universal or metrinch tools. Junk. Tools should fit one size fastener, period. We could all just use Vice-grips on everything all the time, but we don't.

My garage toolbox is almost exclusively metric, as I've always had foreign cars. I've added SAE stuff over the past few years though since I have a Dodge truck(which is MOSTLY metric).

My race tool cart has both, by absolute necessity. You can't afford to round a fastener when you are at the track, away from a hardware store.

McMaster-Carr has a huge selection of shoulder bolts, as does Bolt Depot, etc.

We have a couple of farm supply places in town or nearby (imagine that!) which sell Grade 3, 5, and 8 bolts by the pound. I know all the reasons to use fine pitched threads, but I'll almost always default to coarse threads and jump up a size or grade if I'm worried.

Good hardware is one of the things that used to separate us from the huddled masses, yearning to breathe free. This, of course, was before Mr. Clinton and a Republican congress reached out across the aisle and joined hands to gut the manufacturing base of this country and farm out everything to the lowest bidding 3rd world mud hut. Before then, Rockford, IL was the hardware capital of the world. Midwest gearheads grew up appreciating good hardware.

The hardware will not be the thing to fail on that beam, Danny. I would almost guarantee that 1/2" Grade 8 bolts are many, many times more rugged than the beam itself.

I've got a quick question for all the "metric or die" aficionados (cultists?) -- do you have metric drill indexes, or are you just getting "close enough" with fractional drill bits? When you get something turned at a machine shop, do they take off .001" or 0.0254 mm? How committed are you?

There's no way to have a "full set" of anything. I'll die with several enormous tool stacks full of both metric and standard tools, but my heart will always think of things in x/32 or .00x" terms.

I have been corrected by my friend LI-Rick about fastener designations.

No more SAE and USS. It is now UNF and UNC, I am assuming for fine and coarse.

Stan, I was not thinking of how tough the beam is. I was just not wanting the beam to separate from the chassis, because that could be BAD. I know for a fact the beam will bend, been there, done that.

And you are right, good hardware is awesome. US/SAE Grade 8 is pretty strong.

It is a massive shame that the hardware industry along with scores of others have basically left the USA. NAFTA was one of the worst things for this country.

Did you also know that Metric 8.8 is roughly equivalent to US Grade 5? Very interesting.

@DannyP posted:

It is now UNF and UNC, I am assuming for fine and coarse.

UNF/C is Unified National Fine (and Coarse). SAE is Society of Automotive Engineers, which somehow came to designate fractional inch hardware.

@DannyP posted:

Did you also know that Metric 8.8 is roughly equivalent to US Grade 5? Very interesting.

I did. 10.9 is roughly Grade 8. I'm a geek as it relates to fastener hardware.

As an interesting aside, almost all SAE spark plugs use metric threads.

Now I am thinking I should replace the bolts on my front and rear lids.

Unfortunately, I don't have access to the front ones because they have fiberglassed in covers under the dash.

Yeah, Mike - That kinda sucks, doesn't it?

It's all part of living with a CMC and occasionally see something and ask,

"WTF were they thinking?

Just remember, If it ain't broke, don't break it!

As Sacto was rethreading the thread that had drifted a few times, and went on to describe his hinge points, I was thinking: shoulder bolts.  That would be a proper pivot pin.  And NyLocs as a one-time use item??  ...  have never regarded them as such.  Pretty cute idea, and they have their place, which I will add is not in a very tight place where you get about one flat of turning with your wrench.  At which point you will give your kingdom for a regular nut and a lock washer.  And my little tool chest has its socket/wrench collection divided: English on the left, metric on the right,  and notably the 3/8" or 1/2" or 3/4" drive ratchets, which operate both, stacked in the middle.

And . . .  there are times when ONLY a vice grip will get it done. So keep one or two of those handy.  And I found recently that having a new one with sharp teeth is worth what it costs to go get it.

I don't know if my post is a thread-drift, but....

Lost one of the bolts & nut on the bracket holding the fire extinguisher in my Vanagon.

The remaining bolt/nut was SAE. In my hodge-podge collection of nuts & bolts I could only find a metric bolt & nut of similar size. Luckily I had this tool to reattach my bracket with the metric bolt/nut.

"Rounds off both kinds of nut and bolt heads with equal precision."

@MusbJim Some of you on here know Chuck Heath, friend of Chris T, Cory, and me.

Chuck made one of those, and inscribed it with Metric and Standard, then gave it to Mr. Drake. Very funny stuff!

Reminds me of a quote from The Blues Brothers movie: "Do you play both kinds of music? Country AND Western" or something like that...