Flat 6 Porsche engine question

I was wondering if many people have tried to put a Porsche flat 6 from a 911 in one of the 550 spyder kits? How much more expensive is it than a VW engine? Also will a Porsche 5 speed transaxle work? It seems to me the Porsche 6 would be easier to get a little more horsepower from.

It's been done, you'll find cars out there with a six. But the real question is, how much power do you really want. The subaru 2.5 is beginning to be a popular engine in spyders. Just remember that the cars weight 1200lbs, 200hp is pretty scary, put a subaru 2.0 tuned turbo with 260-300 and the car becomes undriveable on the streets. Weight is everything, HP is not.
-=theron

I was just thinking a late model 911 which was wrecked might make a good donor to start with for the engine and transmission. Getting 200 horsepower out of a 911 engine would seem to put less stress on the engine than trying to get 200hp out of a VW engine.

My new 2,387cc type 1 engine will probably put out over 200 BHP, be reasonably reliable, and weigh a lot less than a 911 six.

Has anyone tried installing the six cylinder from a Boxster? Since it is already a mid engine design, it might fit better than the 911 six. Terry

Now that's interesting. A boxster spyder. I certainly havent heard of anyone. The only problem may be the prohibitive cost, I'm not sure what a donor engine goes for, but it must be pricey. That's what makes the Subaru boxer engine so appealing, the cost is very low and Japan is exporting them in bulk. In addition, I read somewhere that the Subaru boxer was developed by porsche. Anyone else get this same info?
-=theron

I may show my ignorance here but isn't the Boxter and Subaru engine water cooled? Where would you put the radiator on the 550?

I do agree that too much horsepower might be real bad in a Spyder since the aerodynamics were not a priority in 1955. The body shape is a wing and I can see why the front end would lift at speeds of 130 mph. I just figured that with around 225 or 250 HP and a top gear that would limit top speed to about 125 would be a real neat street machine. You would not want to race a Vette or Viper on the open freeway, but around town they should not be able to catch you.

The radiator goes where the spare normally goes, if anyone actually mounts one, just underneath the vents.

The Suburu Engine, according to some Baja racers, has problems with oil leaks. Other than that, they may be viable. BTW, Subaru does have a flat 6, very quiet and powerful.

In 1997, Sand Sport magazine ran a 4 page article on my, I installed a 2.2 Subaru into my mid engine sand car. At that time, VW was the "ONLY" engine to have and Sand Sport Magazine was interested in the "new" engine. After stripping all of the factory coils,computer and injectors from the engine, I proceeded to port and polish the heads, installed bigger exhaust valves and dual springs, I had a company called Schneider in San Diego re-grind the cams to add overlap. After that I fabricated fuel rail and installed 50lb Bosch injectors and an Electromotive Tech II computer with an O2 sensor in the tail pipe. It's turbo charged and on the dyno, at the flywheel, it produced 345 hp & 262 pound feet of torque at 6,200 rpms. I've had that engine in 2 sand cars, my previous mid engine can and my rear engine long travel car that I built during the summer of 2000.

NO ENGINE OIL LEAKS, runs as good as the day I installed it and it's a real pleasure when you stomp on the accelerator.

Between 1973 and 1993, I, on a part time basis drove EPA test cars for Porsche. They would fly me to Detroit then travel to Ann Arbor to the EPA test center where I would pick up a new Porsche and drive it back to Calif. I got to keep the car until my next trip. I absolutely confirmed that late Subaru Engines were in fact designed by Porsche Engineers. If you have the opportunity to install a Subaru and can figure out the plumbing, do it, you won't be sorry.

Additonally, don't be afraid of a 2.2 (2) cam engine, they work great and also, you don't necessarily need a (4) cam 2.5, I just bought a 2.5 (2) cam block and ""maybe"" during the summer, I'll stirp down my 2.2, install those heads on the 2.5 and re-install the engine in my sand car.

Sorry for going on and on but I've been a great fan of VW's and Porsche's for many years but I must say, Subaru does build one fine engine and with a Kennedy adapter plate, it will bolt up to any type 1 or 2 trans. Kennedy even makes adapters to bolt up to a Porsche trans.

I guess there is nothing wrong with a VW engine, but as I see it the VW uses a 50 year old engine design. They went out of production in Germany in the 1970's. I was thinking that a more modern fuel injected engine would be easier to get a little more horsepower without going to a turbo.

Back in the late 1960's I had a Chevelle SS with a 427 that had about 600hp and weighed around 3600 lbs with a 4.56 gear set which would run mid 11's in the 1/4. At 6 pounds per HP, it was a beast and got 4 mpg on the highway and about 1 mpg in town. A spyder with 6 pounds per horsepower would equate to around 200hp at 1200 lbs.

The Subaru engine sounds interesting.

Thunder Ranch makes an option that is exactly what you are asking about,a Porsche 911,6-cylinder engine. It's called their 550A-6 option,and it comes with a wide body configuration for wider wheels in the front and rear. Check it out at:www.thunderranch.com/550.html
Has anyone on this board bought one of these yet? What does everybody think of this? It looks great to me,but I'm new at 550 Spyders.

Since my last post in this thread (6/6/2003) I've been in contact with Dean Polopolus and ordered his "kit' to build a 911-4; see the August 2003 issue of "Excellence" for an article on this engine. Dean furnishes the new 4 cylinder case, 180 degree four cylinder crankshaft, modified cam towers and valve covers, and new camshafts. All other parts are stock Porsche 911, but the cooling shroud has to be modified/shortened, and you need an oil tank for the dry sump system.

I'm building one of Dean's engines with the Porsche 964 76.4mm stroke, 1991 964 dual-ignition heads (extra finning and ceramic exhaust port inserts for cooler running), 964 rods, 9.5 lb. Patrick Racing flywheel with 225mm clutch, and Mahle aftermarket 102mm nicasil pistons and cylinders (2,500cc). Cams will be Jerry Woods GE60 grind (about the same as 911 "S" but with more lift) with cryo'd valve springs and titanium spring retainers. Induction will be via a pair of NOS Italian Weber 48 IDA's (Dean makes manifolds) and ignition will be via a Bosch 009 distributor modified by Dean for dual ignition. Exhaust will be a custom stainless equal-length header system with 1 3/4" diameter by 32" long primaries.

Weight and size are about the same as a VW type 1 engine with dual carbs and bolt-on sump, etc. I hope for about 225 BHP at around 7,000 RPM.
(Message Edited 9/29/2003 12:27:34 PM)

What will be the cost?

Somewhere between $15,000 and $20,000.

Wow,$15,000 to $20,000 for a four cylinder motor? How much would an actual 911 six cylinder and transaxle cost? I know it's going to weigh more than a four,but it wouldn't have to be "souped up" to go really fast so it would last a long time. Thanks.

John, 225 BHP from a 2,500cc SOHC engine is not "souped up", it's just "warmed up" a little. The 911-6 is too long and too heavy and costs more to rebuild (6 cyls insted of 4).

My 2,387 (86mmx94mm) on CB Performance's dyno made the numbers below. The engine case is an aftermarket aluminum TF-1 case, cam is CB similar to an FK 87, carbs are dual Dellorto 48 DRLA's, compression ratio is 9.5 to 1, and exhaust is a 1 3/4" A-1 muffler "Sidewinder" merged header through a 2 1/2" Dynomax.

RPM/BHP/torque
2000/042/110
2500/053/110
3000/066/116
3500/088/131
4000/112/147
4500/131/152
5000/155/163
5500/176/168
6000/210/184
6500/218/176
7000/217/163
7500/210/147
8000/192/126

4000 to 7000 RPM looks good...

If anyone is ready to do it I have a boxter motor and trans available....I also have the rear hubs and half of the rear suspension...

That was exactly what I was thinking to do BUT it was a little too much for me to handle.....

Dario

We have a flat 6 Porsche in our 550-A-6 (Thunder Ranch). It fits. It's cool. It kicks butt. We only have a few miles on it (the alternator went south @ 62 miles and we are having it rebuilt). I wish the electrical shop would HURRY UP with that! The power comes out like a good motorcycle. Very tractable at low speed, no tempermental overheating in town (at least so far) and when you roll it on there is just a smooth strong rush all the way up. There is a saying. "power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely" or something like that.

I am really intrigued by you guys with the Subaru engines. Hadn't thought of that. That WRX is making a boatload of horsepower.

I really like the idea of a Boxster engine. I hope that Dario gives it a try or someone buys the parts from him and jumps into the deep end!! What an interesting car that would be! By the way, Dario, if you see this note, drop Steve and Angela in Medford an email and thank you for the great stuff you sold us. (angela)

Is that Medford PA? I only live 30 min. from Matamoras PA, in Hudson Valley, NY.

From reading their other posts, the Lanes are talking about Medford, Oregon, where you cannot pump your own gasoline and there is no state sales tax.

Sorry, I figured it out after I read some other current posts.

Oregon has really weird rules about pumping your own gas. You can pump your own diesel as diesel is a combustible (relatively high flash point) liquid, but gas-o-line, why that's just plane dangerous according to our law-making do-gooders. One more exception, you can self-serve if you are putting it into a motorcycle. Now the way I figure it, as light as my car is and as much power as it has, it's really a motorcycle with a permanently attached side car. We'll see if the gas stations share my opinion...

Speaking of gas... We got the alternator back into the car last weekend in the evening. Sunday morning I decide to sneak out for a drive figuring I would be back before my husband-Steve even woke up. Rolled the little beast of the garage and then started her so I wouldn't wake up Steve. Had a great drive, until I ran it out of gas and had to call him to come with some fuel.... Brazilian VDO guage reads full even with the polarity switched with VW sender on our car. Gotta sort that out.

You guys can probably guess who drive the Spyder home after Steve got rousted from bed Sunday morning to bring a jerry-can to me...
Yep. Good thing I like our pickup truck. angela

I have a friend that works at BPA in Portland and a nephew that lives in Portland, Or. The story I hear is the they government wanted to make sure each gas station employed trained gas attendants to keep employment up, so they required full service. I've visited Portland on business a couple of times and really liked it, except for the odd freeway construction with no service roads parallel to the freeway. My wife (who cannot read a map) and I were trying to get to the airport to leave and got going the wrong way on a freeway. In Houston that is no problem, just take the first exit and take the U-Turn and you're back in the right direction. In Portland, the freeway exit takes a 90 degree turn into a neighborhood and you have to search for a way to get back to the freeway. I think that there are more people in Houston that the entire state of Oregon, and half of Oregon lives within 20 miles of Portland.

Lane - the fuel gauge error is a common problem with these set ups...do a search on this site and spyderclub and you will see a few fixes.

Mike

Yeah, I saw those and will implement asap because running out of gas really puts a hole in sneaking out for a drive! Also, does anyone know where I can ship my tachometer (Brazilian VDO) and have it altered so that it reads correctly for the six cylinder and not the 4. If its just a matter of changing resistors, I can follow directions and am pretty handy with a solder gun.

Also, are the Brazilian guages trouble prone? I've had alot of VDO guages and never had a problem but Brazil, hmmmm...

thanks!
angela

Angela, North Hollywood Speedometer is about the best in the country


www.nhspeedometer.com/

The brazilian gauges are replica's, not the """"real"""" thing and yes, they do occasionally have problems.

Hi guys. I

Can't wait to see it Jose, please post pictures!

See the photos of the VR6 building process (not finished yet) at the Photos folder of the site. The VR6 engine and gearbox are original. I am modifying the intake plumbing (to clear the hood and for better flow) and re-chiping the eletronic injection. I am putting two radiators in series, one in the front of the car (original of this replica) and other inside the engine hood, in the back. I

Jose,
I looked at your pictures - cool car. Got a question. The centerline of the transaxle seems quite a bit ahead of the centerline of the wheels. What kind of axle angle are you running? Or do you have something else going on to change the angle of the axle? Right now it looks like the axle should hit the front of the rear tire instead of the center of the wheel? Do you have more pics? Love the concept!
angela

Hi Angela. In matter of fact the angle of the axles is not the ideal for this transmission, but I

Hi Jose,
We have a porsche flat 6 engine in our spyder - that's why the question about axles. We wound up with just the opposite issue. Your axles are canted toward the rear, but with our longitudinal setup, we were forced to make considerations to avoid our axles being canted forward excessively.

As the engine/transaxle was relatively long, we had to push the engine up thru the firewall. The cooling fan actually potrudes into the passenger compartment. My husband-Steve made a cover for it. That's how we kept our axle angles acceptable. If you look at our profile, we have pictures posted of it.

In this process, we also learned that different axles are more forgiving of excessive axle angles. We have VW axles, but the Porsche 930 axles will accept a great deal more angulation. We picked our axles based on length as we had greatly overcome the angulation.

I would LOVE to see your car when you have the new engine in it!
angela

OK Angela now I saw your photos. The car is beautiful!

Don

Jose,
We did have some problems with cooling initially. It wasn't horrible, but it would hit 220 and we would just shut it down rather than keep going (painful amount of hard earned cash into the engine). Bear in mind, that was when it was 100 plus outside. Steve fixed a litte air dam underneath that directs air from the belly up toward the fan. That flat cured the problem completely. A good flogging can seldom get the temperature over about 190 regardless of the outside air temperature.

I think you are dead on with the audi setup. Definately some sorting, but cable shifters are quite adaptable. I had one in a Fiat X19 with a rotary engine and fiero transaxle. Worked admirably.

I drive the car every chance I can get. Drove it once in the rain (never again) scared the sh*t out of me when it broke loose 3rd gear.

Still sorting, don't know 0-60 times, but it is mighty quick. It's not much slower than my motorcycle (Honda CBR 600 F-3). Keep in touch!
angela

Forum members. I'm a new member in Australia considering a Beck. I want to install a 2.0l 911 engine. It appaers to me that if I retain the swing axle the distance bettween the transaxle face (bellhousing flange) and the torsion bar housing - (accross car in front of engine) is too small. A VW engine is 380mm long and a 6 cylinder porsche about 450 mm ( 7 inches longer). Can anyone with a Beck please measure this distance or alternatively tell me how much gap between the front pully of a Type 1 vw engine (flate 4) and the torsion tube. I belive the reason the TR fit its in is beacuase they can mover the transaxle back and angle the drive drafts with IRS. This is not possible with a swing axle,

Hi Ken,
The Beck and the Thunder Ranch car actually share alot of DNA. One of the things that TR does to fit the 6-cylinder into the car is changing the firewall. ON a standard TR or Beck, the firewall has a "cove" in it that allows the seats to slide all of the way back while keeping a signficant rearward angle (otherwise you have to sit the seats very upright). On the TR 6-cylinder cars the firewall is completely different. That "cove" disappears and gives about 3 inches or so additional clearance. We found on our car that was still not quite enough so we cut our firewall. The cooling fan is actually intruding to the passenger compartment. Of course we have a cover for it as one drive without the cover nearly snatched me bald...

The TR cars are using DeDion rear suspension without four locating links. See your photo section for a visual. That is significantly different from your setup, but perhaps it will give you some ideas on how to fit that engine into your car.

Have fun!
angela

gaahh type. That rear suspension is WITH four locating links. sorry. angela