F'n Wheel wells!!!

OK, I knew it wasn't going to be easy but I thought I'd give it a shot. I just got my 4 bolt to wide 5 conversion rear drum and the same for the front discs. I also got a 15 x 5.5 to see what kind of clearance I'd have with the rear wells. The positive offset doesn't even fit inside the well! So my question is, do I just have to settle for a 4.5 wheel (the positive offset on those is the same as the 4 bolt) or is there a wider original wide 5 wheel out there that has that absolute minimum positive offset?
The IRS rear really makes it tight in the rear wells and I don't want to do any "major" work like axles, arms, ect.... My other concern is how the geometry of too much negative offset would effect the integrity of the wheel. Anyone car to chime in on this?

Personally, I like the 5.5 wheels for the stability they give the tire but, as you found out, they're only available with backspaceing that won't fit within your wheel opening.

The Spyder guys that have Beck cars will have the centers of the wheels cut and moved out to allow for the wheel to fit within the body.. Once done, they can be re-chromed or, if the welder is "good" it won't show and you don't have to do anything. The other alternative is to have them powdercoated silver. On a Spyder, the powdercoating looks great and would probably look equally as good on a Speedster.

i just did this (late february)

your only option is to narrow the rear. Do you know how to weld? fabricate?

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=274359&highlight=narrow+101

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=276795&highlight=narrow+101

It's not easy, or fast, or that cheap, but man - it really makes the car look meaner and more accurate.

Thanks, that's pretty much what I figured. I've been looking into this for some time and what was holding me back were the rear drums. I didn't want to shell out the $ for the rear drum to disc conversion and no one offered drums that fit. Cip1 finally came up with some and they fit nice but the frickin wheel width thing still bit my ass.
So I, regretfully, will put on the wide 5 15x4.5 instead and look into the axle shortening for a project down the road. Crap!

what's the width of the 4 lug wheel? the crappy chrome wheels that come on the v.s. cars?

Mickey,

You can send the wheels to Weldcraft in MI and, like Larry said, they will cut the centers out of the wheel and push them out up to 1".
Turn around time is about 2-3 weeks, and the last I checked they were around $100 ea to do.

Us of the UNflared persuasion seem to be the whiners here. I too had to dump a newly bought set of 5.5 crome Mangels yada yada.

Can someone definitively state whether 914 wheels are tucked in (I get cofnused with backspace/offset) enough to fit the unflared fronts and/or backs

1) Are all 914 wheels 5.5" W ??
2) Are all 914 years the same backspace/offset ??

I know there are lots of options ; steel, alloy, Mahle etc so state the style wheel.

I'd imagine this info has been hashed B4 elsewhere so please give links if you got.

Backspacing and offset are the same thing. Positive offset means the center where you mount the wheel to the hub is closer to the outside of the rim based on the center line of the rim (makes the wheel closer to the brake hub) Negative offset means the opposite.

With a dismounded wheel, place a straight edge across the diameter of the rim. Using a ruler or tape, measure the distance from the rim to the flat surface where the wheel mounts to the drum/disk.

See here for an explanation:

http://www.rsracing.com/tech-wheel.html

Thanks Carey. I'm not sure an inch will do it. The outer edge didn't even get inside the wheel well and then there's the "rim protection" of the tire to contend with (the roundness of the sidewall). I'm just gonna go with the 4.5 wides until I can get around to changing the rear set up, if it's even feasible. (Hey, can you email me the prices of those items - (Carrera lid & mirror and the aluminum bemper trim. Thanks)?

As far as 914 wheels - I had a 914 20 years ago with Rivieras on it. Those had very little positive offset if I remember correctly. I've looked at other wheels for the Speedster and it looks like you can get a decent selection of wider wheels with less positive offset but I don't really like anything but the original wide 5 look. It'll be one of those things on "The List" like the emergency brake relocation.

I know that it's a step to the side, rather than forging ahead, but . . . .

The wheels from the 1968 VW Bus are wide five, 5.5 inches, with all of the offset to the inside. I guess that there was a problem in fitting a wide 15 inch under the restrictive front wheel wells and not have them rub on turns, These Bus rims are 14 inch, rather than the Beetle 15 inch, so they sit better in the Speedster wheel well, and the car sits lower to the ground, and the wheels will accept up to a 205 tire.

They look kind of cool in that there are four well hidden elongated slots rather than holes so the rim looks like a smoothy. I can snap some pics of mine if you like.

Just a thought.

Oh, the 914 wheels won't work for you, I check my car and they're widened in the wrong direction. They almost look "deep dish" compared to stock Beetle wheels.

I have wrestled with this in the past and if any of you have looked through my photos you'd know that I've had a number of different wheels on my car.
I started with Rivieras. They have a fairly shallow backspace. Even with a very rare 4-1/2" wheel I could only run a 165 tire in the back with 1/8" clearance. My car is IRS with discs.
The next set was 4.5" mangels with 185s. Those had plenty of clearance but the ride was sloppy because it's too much tire width for the rim and the steel is heavy and has a dead feel.
I'm now sporting a set of 5.5 Pedrinis. they are Italian and were offered as an option for the 914 in the early 70s. They are very light and responsive compared to the steel wheels. the backspacing is 4-3/4", which is the same for 5.5 Fuchs (5 lug), 5.5 914 Fuchs and 5.5 Mahle mini gasburners. By comparison, a stock 4.5 4 bolt mangel has a backspace of 4-1/2".
My Pedrinis just fit at first. Then I purchased a set of shaved rotors from Joe Soltis. Now I have 1/4" clearance on both sides.
If you're going for originality send your mangels in for re-dishing.
But if you want true performance, go with the alloys.
BTW, ALL of the aftermarket wheels (Empi, American Eagle, etc.) do not share the same offset as the originals. They will not fit. The closest are the Flat Four 911 Fuchs.

TC,
I think I know the wheels you speak of but a pic would be great to see for reference.

Terry,
The shaved rotor is a great thought - I should have thought about that (duh!) to pick up a little more clearance. I'm really on the fence as to what to do. Do I do the axle thing or do the wheel widening thing? Either one is going to have to wait. (I just sent a check to Pat at CB for my engine. And having a tranny built and an A1 has burned up some $)The way I figure it is between the wheels, the refab work and the shipping I'm looking at the higher side of $1000 whe all is said and done and that's not including some decent skins (add another $1000)Oh well, it'll get worked out one way or another. Thanks for the shaving tip, I'll take any extra room I can get!
On a side note: I read in another thread about some rotor warping or drums locking (?) issues with the drum skins from over heating? Anyone got any input on that? Are the drum covers going to cause me problems? I just can't bare to make another compromise on my wheels! (I'm going w/ wide 5 15x4.5 with cb perf. drum skins)

the skins are really thin. (~3mm)

That being said - i faced the same situation you did. i wanted the look, but understood that it took a lot to achieve it.

it's your car and you'll have to drive it / look at it, so do whatever makes you happy. It would just be a shame to put skinnies on there to only have you not be happy with them.

e-mail sent.

Mickey,

Drum skins: I have NEVER heard of one problem caused by the drum skins, period. I'll post this on the spyderclub, and maybe Larry can jump in here if I am wrong, but I have used HUNDREDS of drum skins and never experienced this...

No need, I too have not experienced any problems caused by the addition of Drum Skins.

Tom Dewalt complained that his rotors warped due to drum skins (see Vendor Specific and his post titled JPS - one unhappy customer's advice)

Thanks Carey! I'll be calling you in the next week or so to place and order.
I was a little confused by the drum skin thing as well, I figured there are so many people running with those that it would have surfaced by now if there was any consistent issues with them.
I just reread my earlier post and I'm an idiot! Shaved rotors aren't going to do me any good because the clearance issue isn't with the front wheels - DUH!

Don't worry about me Paul, when I set my mind to something I usually figure out a way to get it done. The only reason I'm getting the 4.5 wheels is so I can drive it this summer with them on the car. I'm not getting my new engine for at least a couple months so by the time I get it in the car and everything sorted out it'll be time to pack the car away for the winter. And that's when I intend to get all the other things that need to be done finished. It may work out for the best that way. When I get my awesome super fast kick ass engine from CB then I'll know what I'll need to keep it on the road, 5.5's may not be enough. So I can do what ever is needed to get what I want over the winter months. I may shorten tha axles and then get even wider wheels, we'll see.

Hey, I just thought . . . are the rear drums from the pre-60 Beetles thinner than the later cars? I know that the ones (commonly used in five lug conversions) from a '67 are just as thick as those on the IRS rears.
Maybe a set of drums and shoes from an earlier Beetle would work to gain you some space?

Mickey

I haven't read the previews posts, but I will tell you what I did with my car. There is a place in Stockton Ca and it is called Stockton wheels. I told them my problem and requested to change the offset for me(the wheel that didn't fit good). They charge me $80 and a month later the wheel was back in the car with drum skinz on.


BTW I can't wait to see your car finished.

I don't know TC? Any of the VW fanatics out there know? The drums I got are "conversions" from Cip1. They're for people who want the wide 5 but don't want to increase track or switch to rear discs. I have to 4.5 in wide 5's on the way, I sure hope they have the same offset as the 4 bolt VW wheels, from the pictures it looks like they do.

Thanks Lambros. I've heard mixed reviews on the Stockton outfit. Carey said there is a place in Michigan that does it also. As I said, I'll see how the 4.5's do first (hey, the originals had em, how bad can they be?) Getting the right amount of wheel and tire and getting adaquate clearence is looking like a pretty big job, one that will be good for the winter months. I'm pretty excited to get this car all fixed up. I'm collecting all the trim, ect... to have already for the winter too.

mickey - "conversion drums" can be one of three things.

1) type 3 drums from an irs T3 (68+) - require T3 backing plates (very hard to find)
2) Thing drums (~15mm wider) - bolt on
3) 1966-67 T1 drujms. bolt on, use IRS backing plates. Cheap. a minor spacer mod required.

Paul,
It remains to be seen whether or not these "conversions" will work out as I'm still waiting on the 4.5 wheels. I spoke with the tech guys from Cip1 and they assured me there is only a 2mm track increase with these. I'll let you all know as soon as I do.

then you have 'thing' drums. they add a lot more than 2mm track. search thesamba.com

Did you mean this Paul?

from Samba thread =

======================================================================thought i would update this thread as i could find what i was looking for on thesamba.

to convert your 4 lug to wide 5 - it's a matter of doing this:

~ get 66 or 67 beetle drums/shoes/cylinders/hardware for the front
~ get 66 or 67 beetle drums/shoes/cylinders/hardware for the rear
~ cut off 12mm of your 4 lug rear drum stem (where the 36mm nut faces)

voila. cheap (not like Thing drums that are $$ and hard to find) - easy (just like doing a brake swap, but add a bit of elbow grease for sawing the drum "nipple" off.

decrease in rear wheel track (which is what i was looking for) by 12mm on each side.

======================================================================
_________________

That's it!!! I quit!!!!!
This fricking wheel thing is killing me!!!!
I couldn't fit the 5.5 wide 5's on so I got 4.5's and THEY"RE too wide!!!! I talked to James at Weldcraft about moving the centers and after measuring the offset I don't think it'll be possible for them to move the center out far enough. I'll do a little more "in depth" measuring, but I think even if they could move them out to the maximum they would go I'd still be really, really tight in the wheel well. It seems like the only wheel I can put on my car is a stock VW 4 bolt wheel. Is this the ONLY wheel out there that has the proper amount of positive offset to fit an IRS? I need something with almost NO positive offset. HELP ME PLEASE, I can't stand the stock 4 bolt VW wheels.

Mickey,

Can you hold the stock 4 bolt wheel up to the wide five drum and see if it would fit (clear the fender)? If so, you can move the centers out and make the wide fives have the exact same offset as the stock 4 lug wheels.

I'll give it a shot Carey. I'm going to do some percise measurements tomorrow and take some pics to send to James before I do anything. It's just that the stock 4 bolt I have on there now is really tight to begin with. If I can't get at least that clearance, and a little more (for the drum skins), I'm screwed.
My intitial measurements showed (on the 4.5 wide 5) that the center would have to be moved out about 1 5/8" to get enough clearance. I'm going to measure the stock wheels positive to be sure, but there is very little positive offset on it. And from the looks of it on the wide 5 where the center is welded on the rim it doesn't look there is enough room to move it out far enough.
James also quoted me a price of about $175 a wheel and 4-5 weeks turnaround. This project is starting out on a very discouraging note with something seemingly so simple turning into a major hurdle. I sure hope the rest of this goes smoother than this has.

Isn't there someone out there with an older IM(early 80's) with IRS that has wide 5's? Or for that matter, anything else besides stock VW wheels?

OK. Help me out here. I was looking at Cip1's site and they show a stock 4 1/2 X 15 VW 4 bolt wheel that states it has 4 1/2" backspacing (this is the wheel I currently have ON my car). They also show a wide 5 4 1/2 X 15 wheel that states it has 3 11/16" backspacing (this is the wheel I just TRIED to fit on my car) If I were to send out the wide 5's to have the center moved, and if my math is correct, all that is needed to get the adaquate backspacing on the wide 5 is 11/16" more? So if they could move the center out towards the outer edge by 1 inch shouldn't that give me enough room to fit the wide 5's on as well as the drum skins?

the difference between 3 11/16 and 4 1/2 is 13/16

You MAY just get 13/16" out of the 4.5" wide five. Like I mentioned on the phone, I have them move the 4.5s out by 3/4" and James said that was "about" the max.
Also, I am definitely not an expert on all the years of VW parts, but I can send you to some people who are. There are several different drums and they all seem to have a slightly different drum thickness. I know the 615D drums add 3mm per side to the track... not much, but in your case it sounds like you may need all the help you can get...

Mickey,
I don't understand.
Are you running drums or discs in the rear?
Are you staying with 4 bolt or wide 5?
Do you have the problem on both sides or just the right?
My car with IRS and rear discs would only accept the 4.5" stock wheel with 4.5" backspace. John Steel had cleared the fiberglass around the top edge to originally accommodate 4.5 Rivieras.
I am now running 5.5 Pedrinis that have a 4-3/4 backspace with the help of a shaved rotor on the right side. With the modifications to the rotor and the fiberglass I have approx. 1/4" clearance on both sides.
Email me or give me a call if you want to talk about it.
Terry
530-305-1836

Terry,
I

to be honest mickey - don't screw with your wheels. I totally understand what look you are going for.

First off, if the spacing in the rear wheel wells is different - your body is not installed straight. it took me the better part of 4 hrs to get mine on perfect front and rear. I had to get under the car, bench press it up, move it overa few mms., measure again, etc. it was akward, but now the wheel well spacing is perfect.

so, like i posted above, and on TS, the only thing you need to get and modify is new rear trailing arms. I made a jig off my old stock ones to get the angle perfect, so you can do that. It only took about 1 hr to make the jig and i made it so i could do both sides with it. It's ugly, but works. Shouldnt take you long to make one. i'll snap a pic of it and post it.

Then you just need new axles. Don't bother redoing the backspacing on the rims. the wheels will still look dorky (with no lip) and it will cost more. i paid ~$200 for new axles and $50 for used trailing arms. Steel cost me ~$40

Thanks Paul.
It's obvious to me that this is not going to be something that gets done in an afternoon, like I'd hoped. I want to weigh all my options so the pic of the jig you made would be a great help. I see that aircooled sells a version of the arm as well. I don't want to waste money if I can help it, I'm already in the hole with shipping and having to send stuff back. I guess I really need to sit down and figure this out.

That's great, Paul.
I might end up doing that as well.
I'd love to get 6" Fuchs on my car.

oh geeze - i forgot about the picture - lemme go snap it right now

sliced my finger on the jig (1.5" long cut), but here are the pics...

Thanks Paul! I'm assuming you're the same guy as "westcoast paul" on the Samba forum. If I read that thread right are you saying the narrowed arms from aircooled will take stock type 1 axles or do I still have to get shorter axles?
I have one last possiblity with the wheel modification route and if that busts I'm going to have to bite it and get the arms from aircooled. And if that's the case then I'm going to have to send back the 4.5's and get 5.5's - Arrgh!!!! It kills me because everytime I need something for my car it all comes from Cali and I end up waiting 2 weeks from the time I order it and the time it gets here.
Anyway, I'm not much of a welder and I think taking on this project the way you did is out of my league. So I guess I'm asking, what info, if any do you have on the arms from aircooled? I can call them tomorrow to see what they have to say but I'd like to hear what you have to say being that you've gone down this road already.
This forum is definitely way more reliable than some of the info you get from "tech help" at websites. The guy I talked to at Cip1 told me the positive offset on the 4.5 wide 5 was the exact same as the positive offset on the stock 4.5 4 bolt, WHICH IT WASN'T!
Thanks.

If I'd just read a little closer I'd be able to answer my own questions!

It says you do have to get shorter axles. The shorter one off a type 3 automatic or buy them new. Paul, do you know what the correct length is? Is it just 1.5 inches shorter than stock? And as long as I'm asking questions, what is the stock length for a 71 IRS?

Anyone? Bueller? Anyone?