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I am running a 2367 cc. I fabricated my own rear mount to accomodate the exhaust system. My concern about NOT having a rear bar mount would be that VW and Porsche both seemed to think they needed one, and their original vehicles had a LOT less horsepower, torque and tractive rubber than I have.

I understand the type four weighs a bit more than a type one.
Think about the rigidity lost to frame flexing under extreme loads (translation - fun cornering).
Why do you suppose they sell frame horn triangulation kits for the beetle?
Just my two cents, and it does add weight to your vehicle.
You may want to converse with Jake Raby at his Massive 4 website.

well, since I have a tendency to over engineer rather than under, I figure the chassis flex would be less. Regardless with a fiber glass body, the longivity will be extended if there is less flex. I had a rear mount for the rotary so why not for a higher torque T4?

Cory, I will probably not do any "sanctioned" events but I do get a wild hair up my butt and tend to open 'er up....

I will probably go for the rear mount. Weight is not a concern since the bar will weigh less than 20 lbs.


Michael
I will say this: I had a CMC w/ a 912 engine. It had the rear hanger with supports welded to the "D-ring" around the engine. There were no extra supports put in. It had been done many years before (at least 9) but with age it made the whole rear of the car sag. (See the picture) I added bracing with adjustments and corrected the issue and also made the car drive and handle much better. The "D-ring" offers no real support unless you add it.

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Cory, you said you don't like things to move!!!! May I suggest that you use Trans straps, one at the bell housing end and the other across the nose cone. 2 versions are available, lined and un-lined. The lined unit has a strip of rubber that helps insulate vibration noise. The standard steel units are usually used on dune buggies.
Larry, I'll probably have one on standby, but I don't know if I'll need it -- I'm open to opinions:
I'm using a motor plate; it ties the engine and tranny to my roll support. The back of the car grows off the rear of the engine, and the shell is tied into the chassis at four additional hood-pinned or Dzussed points.
I'll be using the four lower bolts on the tranny nose cone, the four between the engine and tranny and the four risers from the horns to stabilize the whole works for a total of 12 contact points without including the body's tie-downs.
I'm not sure that my tranny will have anywhere to go. Whaddy'all think?

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Over the years, I've built a bunch of tube frame dune buggies. My latest is a long travel car (20 Inches of suspension) It's powered by a 345 HP Subaru 2.5 turbo/intercooled/injected engine. Transaxle is a VW bus 091. I have the engine braced at the rear and at the transaxle. The transaxle is bolted to the frame at the bellhousing and the 4 bolts on the nose cone. On the 3rd or 4th time out in the dunes (1,000 miles from in Idaho and ruined that vacation), it broke the nose cone. When I got home, I added 2 straps, one at the nosecone and one around the bell housing. No further problems.

My observations and experiences would compel me to install the straps using the theory "better safe than sorry"
I have the support piece from Gene Berg up front to prevent busting another nose cone and we decided against the Kafer brace some time back and I forget why...probably because I was in a yank to get going someplace and didn't want any more down time... I too am envious of the framework, Hell for that matter, all the detail of Simon's car.

To date, knock wood, my Type4 at 200++ HP is firmly anchored in the back (about 6-7K miles?)and likely to stay put as I continue to assault the asphalt. I get Butch back today with his new clutch.
Long time Micheal! I installed a bolt on system similar to the kafer brace. Too bad the guy I bought it from is no longer making them. The sleeved horns I welded on your car are going to be a little stiffer than a origninal horn configuration. Your horns are now double walled and run 60-70 % of the replaced length. Do you need a traction system? Depends on your driving and the size of your tires. Engine torque and tire resistance. So if you are going to do alot of stop light racing and have wide tires go the extra step . The brace will eliminate all wheel hopping.
Hope that helps.
New project! I just bought a 56 ragtop oval w/ semaphores. Looks like a rat rod project in the making. I'm upsetting alot of vintage bug owners by cutting this thing up. This car might even be the first hydrogen powered vw hot rod.
Later
Joe S
Joe!!

Long time no see!! Anything I can get you for that rat rod??? Hydrogen powered??? I also got another toy..bought a 914 with a Raby engine in it..

Do you remember the rear support bar I had on the car for the rotary? I am not worried so much about the frame horns as the extra weight AND torque...

I saw those..and actually found a better set once..I am looking again for them.

If I would covet anyones advise..it would be yours.

Michael
Butch just got back from Uncle Ted's. He was getting a new clutch. I ambled out of town and when the temp numbers were on the rise I made certain to miss the light at the freeway's entrance at the foot of 780.

Light turned green and I dumped the clutch and let him rip. Shifted hard through second and third and power shifted into fourth.

Some tire smoke in first a chirp in second, triple digits in third and the needle was coming around to meet the alternator light in fourth.

Clutch works good again. The cool down runs were fine, no nosebleed (read broken drippy nose cone)and the engine and ass-end are still one with car and the universe.

Like I said in an earlier post I like Simon's Kafer brace and would have one if I felt I needed it. I think if you are building a car and don't have to retro-fit or cut anything up, slap the brace in. It looks tits and the idea of cross-bracing makes sense.

If your car didn't come with one and you are driving aggressively with 150-170 HP I don't think you need it.

Everything I know I learnt in kintergarten. Seriously, I think some of us have too much time on our hands and fall prey to reading all sorts of articles that seem to support guys who sell aftermarket shit for a living.

I just reread this thread and see something I overlooked and that is all my experience is based on the horns being in top condtion. If you have questionable underpinnings in pan and points of stress, then all those things need to be addressed before any future mods are put into play... obvious I guess, but 8/
Micheal, to clarrify a few things. If you don't want wheel hop even with a 110-150HP engine put the kafer style brace on. If you are little uneasy at clutching you get wheel hop. And with wheel hop adds extra flex through out the body of the Speedster. The brace will add additional integrity to you cars structure. Look at the simple diagram attached. You'll get the picture. 3rd grade geometry. I can say I do have experience putting 1100 hp to the rear end of a strip car and a back ground in building late model and sprint car chassis.
Also is a picture of the new project. See if anyone down in the neck of your woods has a 55-57 hood.
Joe

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Joe,
lets see what I can find locally...most 55-57 hoods are gonna be pretty dear to the owners heart...
How good of shape does it need to be?

Joe, I will probably do the kafer brace type, I understand the flex principle, I just thought using the rear brace that was already made would be of some worth.

Michael
Paul,

The kafer brace can be fitted without removing anything.

I had the brackets for mine welded up on a chassis a local VW specialist had laying around. Just be sure you know how much clearance you have around the upper shock mounts as we had to get creative with the way we used to the brackets to ensure everything would clear my Chesil's sub-frame.

Simon
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