From CMC instruments to VS 3-cluster

Hey All -
These CMC instruments drive me nuts - never has there been a Porsche with guages like these, especially with the "Vintage Reproduction" labels so clearly displayed. So I'm changing car color from red to black and will fill the holes and drill other holes in the panel in the process.

Anyone done this with success (or no success)? The dash panel seems so thin and the holes relatively large to just glass over it without backing. Maybe I'll have it done professionally if it's the pain-in-the-a project with no room for error that I think it may be. Advice?

I have my fiberglass work done by a boat guy.

There was a thread posted here on doing that awhile back - it even had pictures of the various steps. I could only find this with a quick search -

https://www.speedsterowners.com/forum/readmsg.asp?t=5829

My guess is that JJr had more pictures on his page - I could only find the near finished product:

https://www.speedsterowners.com/files/view.asp?sf=jjr&f=DSC03297%2EJPG

Basically you fill the holes with fiberglass matting/cloth soaked in resin (mixed with hardener) from the back. Build up with 3 or 4 layers and them use Bondo or plastic autobody filler/putty to make smooth on the front --- then sand for priming and painting.

I'm faced with same task since my new VDO gauges fall right thru the Classic gauge holes with a good 1/8" opening around them.

This isn't the one I was looking for either -- but another approach.

https://www.speedsterowners.com/forum/readmsg.asp?t=6407

Somebody's been reading my mind. I've been thinking of replacing the Vintage gauges on my CMC ever since I built in in 1992. I'm less concerned about the glass work- but where do I get the 3 gauge clusters?? And am I going to have to rob a bank to pay for them?

I've done this retro fit on three speedsters, just back up the hole with a couple layers of glass mat. Then add in a layer of Tiger Hair (this is a mix of fiberglass strands and Bondo)sand and top coat with a skim layer of finish Bondo and final sand.

I'm in the process of doing this same thing. I laid some fiberglass cloth from the back, about 3-5 layers. Filled the holes with bondo. Forget the fiberglass bondo, Its very difficult to work with. Then lay a final piece of the cloth over the front from the windshield edge to the under side of the dash. Sand the fibers smooth and final coat with gel-coat and a finish resin.

Darren - Can you tell me what finish resin is? Is it just a light coat of resin or special kind? I've alsways used just bondo and spot putty for the final finish - it doesn't give a reall hard finish though.

Finish resin is a very hard coat of fiberglass resin. Its not bondo on any way. Usually you have to spray it on. The main advantage is you get a gel coated dash to match the rest of the car. But if your going to paint it black then skimming with bondo will be just fine.

On the gauges.......KILL ME NOW, I have been in contact with all the majors around me; VS, JPS, & IM. The prices range from what John at JPS quoted me at $300 for all 3 gauges, to $700 from IM. Oh ya and they wanted another $100 for MPH vs KPH. so make that $800.

One more thing, the gauges are not available from JPS or VS right now. They are having a 1 in 3 failure rate in the tachs. This issue has been seen many times here before.

So take it slow, and realize if your going to do the body stuff yourself you might want to wait till you can get all the parts. I made the mistake of starting too soon and now I have a speedster without a windshield and a dash that stares back at me with nothing to say.

But I still love it!

Gelcoat is thinned resin. it lays out smoother and "kindof" flows. But as Alan said-you use the fiberglass matt/resin to give it strength and just skim coat with filler. Nice.

Thanks Bruce !
This is one of the few times I will ever say "listen to the voice of experience" and say this not to step on anyone's toes but to save you hours of aggravation and excessive beer consumption.
The fiberglass impregnated Bondo is easy to work with and in the case of filling in dash holes you don't have to bring up the thickness to surface level as the finish coat of Bondo does this. Save yourself a lot of sweat and do the job as I have previously posted.
I've been there and done this a number of times and isn't as difficult as you would imagine.

Gauges check with Carey Hines his gauges are VDO Brazilian and not the crap from China.

Hey Alan have you even had any problems with the dash flexing and cracking the paint? Gel coat is usually more flexable, but I dont know if the dash flexes that much. Besides whats wrong with excessive beer consumption

BTW whos Carey Hines?

With today's paints there are no issues with cracking due to flex.
If the "gelcoat" or "resin" cracks there is no paint finish that will cure poor prep/support.

The Hines family own and operate Special Edition, the US distributor of Beck Speedsters and Spyders.

Regarding the dash fiberglassing - the latest issue of Kit Car Builder has an article on how to do just that. They bought a blank replacement panel from John Steele at JPS and cut out the old one, replacing it with the new one.

Chuck; the only one I can think of now that sells the 3 gauge cluster is Vintage Speedsters for $450.00. These are some photos of Jjr's work before and after.

Know its not authentic look but for $450 you can buy 2 sets of new VDO Cockpit gauges (they have several other styles too - Night Design, Vision, Royale). They have lots of plastic but seem to be acceptable quality (unlike the CHINA replicas). CIP1 carry them along with all the needed senders.

No dash flexing issues.
Yes Kit Car Builder aka Jim Youngs, just did feature on this exact project, he did a full vertical dash face replacement.
Your choice to patch the old gauge holes or cut and splice in the a new dash face.
I would opt to do just the old gauge holes.
Carey Hines Special Edition has the VDO repros that are good.
......Excessive beer consumption = wavy bodywork

I also converted to the VDO reproduction gauges. I got mine from Beck for $375 about a year ago. My speedo is in Km/hr, which is a conversation piece to many. I drive by the tach anyway. Like others above have said, it's not very difficult to fill in the holes.

Chuck

Hey I just bought the 3 gauges from Carey for $400. Also they offer a LED bulb replacement for $10 a gauge-way brighter and will never burn out. BTW way cool to do business with, really willing to work with me.

D

Speaking of gauges, I was asked what COMB meant for the fuel guage. I whipped up a comment about combustible for fuel.

I haven't found anything to confirm my BSing. Is it combustible?

M

Darren,

Gauges shipped this morning.

Michael,

COMB stands for combust

BOOM SHAKLAKA......my dash is on autopilot now.

If money is the only issue, you can use 911/early 912 gauges. They're green faced and look like the 356 gauges, the tach is a 12 volt electric unit so it's a two wire hook up (12 volt hot, negative coil), same size as stock 356 gauges, they just have a different bezel style. It's two pieces, like the 914, but the outer ring is chrome while the inner piece is semi gloss black. They look nice and classic and the bezels can be swapped out for 356 style later, when you score some. The combination gauge is split into two gauges, one gauge a fuel gauge the other oil temp. I used the fuel gauge and put the oil pressure light into the top part and it's all cool.


I got a set on Ebay for around $25

I bought these off ebay for $125.00 they worked perfectly.

The tach on the 900 series is slightly larger than the repros. That
being said, I prefer the old German stuff to the reproduction dials.

Hi Darren,

Do you have any pictures of your project? I would love to see some pictures of the progress and the end result as I want to go that same route but I am bit scared.

Thanks,
Oscar

Pictures-----well! no. I lost my docking port for my camera so I cant transfer pics right now. I will have them in a week or so. The job I'm doing is a true retrofit of a dash that will be fiberglass again with gelcoast to match the exterior. So if your going to paint the whole car then do the skim coat of bondo. Like stated before-MUCH EASIER. I just want mine to all match, plus this is cheaper.

D

There's these:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=386631

So are Kirk's and Carey's repro instruments different? Geez I know I'll stir up some heat asking which are better, but I know they don't manufacture them themselves. Which set to buy?

Carey's are better as his are VDO Brazil; I was just under the impression that he couldn't get them anymore; at least he told me so once. Next best thing is the China replicas of the replica Brazil VDO's; the ones that JPS and Vintage Speedsters sell.

Carey - can you still get these? I see in this thread you just shipped some out. Am I missing something?

How about special pricing for a group buy? Is a clock available to match?

Redoing the dash and filling the holes with fiberglass is not so hard, it just takes some work but its worth the effort. I made a CAD template for the China Crap gauges in case anyone needs one. Be sure to use plenty of fiberglass cloth and resin so a strong finish is obtained, this is important when you cut over it to make the new holes...

If I knew Carey had the Gauges from VDO Brazil, Ive never would have gotten the China Crap gauges! And the sad thing is I believe the hole diameters are different, boy!
Hey Carey are you coming this way on Dec?

Jarco,

Yes, I can still get them, but sometimes it is a pain to get "extras". We have to program a fixed number of sets with VDO in the beginning of the year.
I have to make sure I can cover my production numbers/warranty and then the rest can be extra for parts sales. If I need additional gauges once I've reached my "quota" I have to try to program them in for the end of the year, however it always seems like it is a problem.

Wolfgang- We discount the gauge set $50 when you buy all 3. This is the best price I can offer these at, sorry.

The matching VDO clock is available in 52mm and 60mm. These are not made in Brazil, and you can probably get then direct from N. Hollywood for the same money that I have to charge.

JJ- The China gauges are the same size as the VDO. It is an easy swap.
My sister-in-law postponed her wedding until Dec. of 2008, but it is still scheduled for San Juan.

Cool! Just in case Carey; I know a wedding planner here who does a lot of weddings for couples that come from the mainland. Send me a PM if this sounds like something your sister would like to explore.

Another option for revising the dash arrangement, although not "original looking", would be to have an "engine turned" piece of 316 stainless steel made that would cover the area beneath the "eyebrow", with holes to suit the new gauges. This probably would be more suited to flared/outlaw versions that standard 356's. If you are interested, see http://haneline.com.

"So are Kirk's and Carey's repro instruments different? Geez I know I'll stir up some heat asking which are better . . . "

I think that the real question is:

If Kirk's and Carey's instruments were installed in a pan based or tube frame Speedster, which would be the better instruments, and which would be the better car, and would the instruments impact the rigidity of the car in a detrimental or beneficial manner.

Also, considering performance vs cost and factoring longetivity, how would the instrument choice have a bearing on the variables between a Type I vs Type IV power plant.

(Right about now Raby SOMEHOW is sensing that I'm posting this and is about to respond . . . probably with an lightly veiled advertisement for something that he builds or manufactures . . . OR, a defensive

Wait a second while I go get a beer and sit down to watch the fireworks.

TC; if I had a choice I'd definitely go with the VDO Brazil; believe me I know from 1st hand experience.

Yeah, I have to totally agree. The VDO Brazil are the very best currently being offered and they look So right.

I just don't like to spend that kind of money, always go with original 356. Get broken ones cheap on ebay, gut them out and install 914 mechanicals. For me it's more fun working with the old stuff and making it new again. I've got three sets done up, one for each of the cars and another "competition" style set with drilled bezels and 911/912 internals, 140 MPH speedo and the rest. The center of the combination gauge is a two inch red low oil pressure warning light. Fun and silly, but kinda cool. The competition style gauges are for a project car that I might attempt. I have my eye on a WAY cheap 356 center "green house" section, Just the doors, sills, jams, dash and cowl really, but the numbers and build plate(s) are there and the title for the "car" is valid. I sorta want to build a "special" around the remains, along the lines of the original Pooper using the old 356 body metal as a starting point, my tube rail chassis as something to hang the suspension off of and a combination of Fiat, Ghia and aluminum panels to complete the car.

That one's third in line, but I ought to grab up that "tub" while it's still there . . .