Front breaks locking up

Paul- same size wheels and tires all around or larger on the back? Ghia (or similar) discs on the front and later model type 1 (4x130mm) brake shoes and drums on the back?

Once upon a time I had this problem with my Cal Look street car- the Ghia discs would lock up way earlier than the back type 1 brakes on the back. 135's on 4 1/2" rims on the front and 185/70's on 6" rims on the back didn't help things. I do know what you mean- a little dust or sand on the road (or it's wet) and you have to be really, really careful. It can get downright scary.

I put type 3 rear drums and shoes on the back and the brake balance was almost perfect. The only issue was the type 3 hubs added 5/8" to the track on each side; with early axles and tubes I still had plenty of fender clearance, but this may not work for you, depending on whether your car has short (<'66), 67 only (medium length), or '68 and newer (long) axles and tubes. The difference between the short and long assemblies is about 1 3/4" (iIrc).

I have read that rear type 1 wheel cylinders are 17mm, and the upgrade is 924 wheel cylinders (sorry, don't have a part #), which are 19mm and will apply more force to the rear brakes. I've also read that Kymko (sp? I know it starts with a k) has semi metallic brake shoes that boost braking power appreciably as well.

Hope this helps. Al

PS- you're right in your thinking that pulling up on the emergency brake while braking means you need more force in the back...

That all sounds very logical to me. I have the same tires all the way around. I too have had bugs with 135 or 145s on the front, and I am using type 3 rear drums on one of my drag cars. They work great.

I don't hear others complaining about this problem with their speedsters. I'll look into different wheel cylinders and different shoes. My buddy Cory's car has empi rear disks and his car stops great. I don't want to buy four bolt rear disk breaks. I'd rather switch to wide five because I love the look. Home that makes since.

;

There are 22mm rear wheel cylinders ('68 up bugs 131 611 057) that could be used too (if not already there). Super Beatles used 23.8mm (361 611 067A) wheel cylinders. Not sure if they line up with brake shoes though.

There was a thread awhile back where a 10# residual pressure valve was used on the rear drum brakes to keep pressure on the shoes (so less travel).

I just checked the adjustment on the rear drums. They were completely adjusted. Just a little movement on the adjusters and the drums wouldn't move. It's as if the rears are getting used at all. If I used a residual valve, would it go just between the rear break line and the master? And where would I find this valve?

Could there be a problem with the master? Replacing it isn't very expensive, just a little awkward wrenching.

The bigger wheel cylinders will make the back brakes more effective. Is there fluid leaking around the master cylinder? If there isn't, no need to touch it. I don't know about the residual valve; I'd try the bigger cylinders first...

Nothing is leaking anywhere. It's just the rear drums aren't working via the peddle, apparently not receiving any pressure.

My parts store always asks what year vehicle we're dealing with. How do I get the bigger wheel cylinders? What did they come on?

Disregard, I see the part numbers above.

Residual valve gets placed as close to master cylinder as possible (so line pressure stays in the entire line).  When you bleed rear lines (which might not be bad idea as air doesn't compress like brake fluid) -does it spurt out strongly?  That would show if master cylinder was working to rear brakes (although there could still be a crimped brake line).

Funny, I was just thinking the same thing. As soon as somebody gets home to help me I'm going to bleed the rears to see if there is good pressure there. It does seem like a line is crimped somewhere.

Paul:  10# residual valve from Summit:

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/wil-260-13784

CIP1 has them, too

http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDe...Code=C13%2D16%2D3156

I'm running one of those and it made a big difference.  Never heard that they have to be close to the master cylinder, so I just put it in the middle of the line going to the rear, sitting right beside the driver's seat along the tunnel.  Works fine.

Good luck!

Great thanks, I'll get one.

Do I need an adapter to use this on my VW lines?

Some of the replacement hard lines to rear come in 2 pieces with a joint - valve could be placed there with appropriate fittings (NPT or metric) or cut lines and use compression or flare fittings.

Perfect, thanks

Paul, has it been like this from the day you got your car or recent development?

"Do I need an adapter to use this on my VW lines?"

I had the stock VW, single long line from the M/C to the rear "T" with metric (bubble) fittings each end.  I removed it and took out about 2" near the seat and then had a brake shop flare the ends for the residual valve (double flare) and install the right (English, in my case) threaded couplings.

I got the car in September and it took a couple of days to find out. I had my youngest son in the car (his first ride) and hit the breaks pretty hard when a traffic light changed on me. Next thing I know, I'm sliding through the cross walk. It didn't occur to me at the time to grab the emergency break handle, and I knew I was coming to a stop. It was just a wake up call that I had a problem. This would be amplified on wet pavement or dirty road surface.

My son hasn't ridden with me since then and my wife said he refers to  my car as a death trap (behind my back).

My wife helped me bleed the rear breaks yesterday. I was pleased to see all the rubber plugs in place. The little bleeder was really tight indicating to me the breaks hadn't been messed with since the car left the factory 10 years ago. I explained to my wife to pump up the break peddle and hold it, and that it should go to the floor but to continue to hold it down. I got the little bleeder to break loose but the fluid just trickled out. My wife shouted "the peddle went down." I tightened the bleeder and had her pump it up again, telling her to put her weight into the peddle. I then got pretty good spray. I moved to the other side and got great pressure the first time. This tells me there is now crimp in the line. 

Yup, sounds that way.  Short of finding an obvious crimp in the metal line, I would suspect that the flexible rubber hose has swelled and grown almost shut.  Try replacing that, first.

I wrote "there is now crimp in the line" but what I meant to say was "there is no crimp in the line."

Brakes please not breaks.  Sorry, but that irks my OCD.

10 years!  I thought it was a relatively new Beck (the paint looks new).  Brake fluid is hygroscopic (absorbs water) which destroys wheel cylinders.  Lines should be flushed every 3 years or so.  I bet the pistons are rusted tight and not moving as they should.  They can possibly be rebuilt but not worth time as new are under $10 each.  I'd also go with stainless steel covered rubber teflon lined brake hoses which don't bulge like old rubber ones. Make sure to get longer front ones for disc brakes (not drums).  I believe this will fix issue without adding the valve or even upgrading the wheel cylinders.

Well, them's the brakes, as they say... 

Since we're being fussy about spellin'- it's pedal (not peddle).

ALB posted:

Since we're being fussy about spellin'- it's pedal (not peddle).

Oh, pedal/peddle...how presumptuously pedantic of you... 

Geez, tough crowd.

Sacto Mitch posted:

 

Geez, tough crowd.

Brother Paul steps up, takes a month out of his life rebuilding brother Cory's motor, and this is the heartfelt thanks he gets?

 

A drubbing over some homonyms? What's with this homophobia?

 

If a brother takes a peddle, a pedal, or even a petal to the metal, must we meddle or test his mettle?

 

Let he who has not sinned post the first moan.

 

And by the way everyone, merry Christmas!

 

 

Like times 5!!!

Boy, you guys are tough. I think the fluid and wheel cylinder change is exactly what I need. My spelling has always been a mess. There is a guy on TheSamba (Tucker I think) that is known for his terrible spelling. But, he really knows his VW stuff.

Anyway, Merry Christmas to everyone, and thanks for your help.

Paul,

I am married to a school teacher.  I have given up on my spelling and grammar.  If I have an "important" email to transmit,  I get Miyuki to proof or re-write my mess.

No worries mate!  Merry Christmas.     

Art

PaulEllis posted:

Boy, you guys are tough. I think the fluid and wheel cylinder change is exactly what I need. My spelling has always been a mess. There is a guy on TheSamba (Tucker I think) that is known for his terrible spelling. But, he really knows his VW stuff.

Anyway, Merry Christmas to everyone, and thanks for your help.

I'll take excellent help and generosity over proper grammar any day of the week. Thank you Paul.

Nothing like a good "Whoa" Pedal

Waiting anxiously to see where we get with new cylinders and lines.  and if Wolfy's theory is correct, issues may be found elsewhere besides the rear cylinders.  If they are rusty, chances are the MC is too.  A full bleed should tell the tale.  The first fluid out the bleeder will be brown, possibly opaque, and only after a thorough pumping several times will the new fluid push through all the old.  will have to keep replenishing the reservoir.  What color is the fluid in the reservoir, BTW?  I would first siphon the old reservoir fluid out, then fill the res. with new fluid, and begin the process.  and when I say new fluid, what I mean is fresh bought, unopened.  Dot II or III

IMHO should there be any issue with an older brake system replace it , it's cheap insurance.

It's hard to argue with that. The parts are relatively inexpensive so what the heck. The fluid in the reservoir looks okay from what I can see. Tomorrow I'll pull a wheel cylinder and look inside for rust. I'll replace them regardless of what I find. I'll drain the reservoir and run new fluid through the entire system and see what happens. I'm not sure what master Beck used in 2006 but I'm sure the parts store can match it up.

Mr. Tucker has been active on here in the past, Paul, as he does claim to own a Speedster. He is quite a witty guy, and when he's actually got something to say he can be quite interesting (although a lot of the time I think he just likes to hear his own voice). If you do pull a rear wheel cylinder can you measure the bore? Thanks in advance. Al

PS- Please don't take offence at my comment; I was only poking fun at you. You are already a valuable member here and everyone (I'm sure) is interested in what you have to say.

Paul, check with Carey Hines about specs on the MC and wheel cylinders. That way there will be no guessing and no need for measurements.

I'll send Carey a message for the info.

You guys probably chased off Tucker trying to impress him (and each other) with your literary talents.

@PaulEllis send me a pic of your master cylinder (and a part number of you can see it).  If it is our stock cylinder, it is a VW Brazilia cylinder.  The Brazilia ran 4 lug front discs (same as mid/late 60s Ghia) and 4 lug rear drums (same as late standard Beetle).  It has 1" more offset than any US master, so if you change to a US master (or if someone did without knowing) then your pushrod is 1" too short and will not have enough stroke for proper braking.  You can use a US master, but again, need the longer push rod.

We stock both replacement Brazilian specific (Brazilia) master cylinders, as well as custom longer push rods for the US Beetle cylinder swap.

Stock drum rear wheel cylinders should be 68-77 standard Beetle, P/N 113-611-053-B

Back in 08 we would have used standard DOT 3 brake fluid, today we use Pentosin Super DOT 4.  Either will work, we just found the German Pentosin to be superior to anything else we've tried.

Mark is local to me here in NW FL - maybe 12 miles away.  He has a black classic body CMC.  Interesting and talented guy.  Trained master machinist - has 2 huge lathes in his garage.  He showed me his parts for future engine for the Speedie.  Raw head that doesn't even have the valve or spark plug placement cut.  Bob G, Jim A and I met up with him at recent Niceville Bugs on the Bayou.  He drives a wild yellow baja VW with 10" rear wheels and green geckos on it.