CB Performance has wide five discs available. Can I simply swap out my four bolt discs for the wide five discs and go about my merry way?
Since they don't say otherwise, I am assuming that discs, regardless of hole configuration are interchangeable. How far up my rear end is my head on this one?
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I've never seen a brake kit like you have on the front of your VS where you can see the std 4 bolts holding the rotor on and the 5 bolts for the wide 5 wheels.
I looked at the CB replacement rotor (4184) and was amazed at the $19.95 each price! Then I noticed there is no center hub for the bearings to run in and it's not really wide 5 configuration on the rotor - the hub it bolts to (hidden from view) must be. Looks like you would need their center hub kit too since yours use 4 bolts.
Here's the complete kit (4201) but it looks like it takes the front drum spindle (as it has brackets to mount the calipers).
This is what the EMPI kit (C13-22-2895 looks like ($449) - it includes a new master cylinder (maybe a larger bore?). The CIP1 EMPI kit says for stock drum front spindles. I believe I have an extra pair of front drum spindles you are welcome to.
you will need to change your front spindles to drum brake spindles.
We can supply you with a complete kit for the front and the rear to convert from 4 lug to wide 5 .
Greg
FYI- If you go with the Empi (or similar) wide 5 kit, note that their brakes are really, REALLY! heavy. The good thing is on the front it's weight the car can use, but it would be better if it was bolted in the car somewhere and not part of the suspension/wheels.
Hope this helps, Bob. Al
PS- Are you considering the Vintage 190's for wheels? They come in 5 1/2's and are nice and light...
Yup. What he said. AC Industries and Empi kits are super heavy. Buy once. Cry once.
I've been futzing around with getting this done for some time. The car has wide five chrome Mangels on it now. Wide five drums on the rear and this odd set up on the front. I'll post some pics.
The brakes work great. No complaints there. but the system on the front keeps me from upgrading the wheels to phoney Fuchs or adding drumskins to what I have now.
Nothing wrong with what I have except that I would like to have the flexibility to change wheels and tires to whatever I want at the time.
When you see the pics you'll note that the studs and nuts from the four stud brakes pass through a spacer and adapter. The protrude past the front surface of the wheel itself so that precludes drumskins. Because of the spacing of the four bolts vs the wide five bolts and the way they protrude, that would appear to preclude the phoney Fuchs as well.
Ergo: change the front brakes to wide fives.
or......
Change the rear brakes to either four stud drums or four stud discs that match the stud configuration on the front. Lose the adapters and spacers on the front, go to phoney Fuchs and call it a day.
Here is a pic.
You can see the adapter and four studs (I am changing the nuts from the closed high top you see on three of them to the open lug nut you see to check how much height I could eliminate. The stud still extends beyond the front face of the wheel.) Behind the adapter is a slim spacer that matches the outline of the spacer exactly, so you can't see it. I guess I could paint everything behind the wheel black.
PHB: Oh......You're running a 4-lug to wide five adapter on a 4-lug rotor.
First, you need to find out what spindles you have on there now. I have no idea which of the several front disk brake assemblies available at the time that VS used on your car when it was built. They may have a wide-five rotor available, and they may not. Swapping from a 4-lug to a Wide Five usually causes you to swap out everything from the ball joints out.
Anyway, once you know what's on there for a spindle, you might find a compatible wide-five rotor to replace your 4-lug rotor. It may be that simple, but your track width will probably decrease by 1/2" per side.
Or.....It may require you to swap out everything from the ball joints out: Spindle, rotor and caliper. I assume you have a ball joint front end, so just get something compatible with THAT. You'll also have to determine whether you have standard or drop fron spindles before you go forward and get the same thing, only compatible with a wide-five wheel.
The rest of the info on this thread is just speculation until you know what you have to start with.
Yes, four bolt rotor to wide five adapter.
It's ball joint. Standard spindles, not drop front. I'll pull it apart and take a look.
No question that it will narrow the track width, which I like the way it is for aesthetics. fills the wheel wells nicely, but 1/2 " per side shouldn't make much difference.
Thanks, Gordon.
Greg, may I PM you asking some questions about what you can supply and what I can do myself to convert my 2013 VS front disc and rear drum to wide 5's?
If Fuchs look (faux or real) is end desire - go to Porsche 5x130 mm rotor/drum combo vs the Wide Five 5 x 205 bolt pattern. There are many wheels in the 130 mm pattern plus spacers available. Not so many 5 x 205 mm wheels. To do that there are replacement pre-drilled 5 x130 mm front rotors and predrilled rear drums - ~$300. Then bolt on CIP faux Fuchs at $120 each.
That's a 4.5" wheel at $240 each. CIP1 also has a chromed 5.5" (and 4.5") with 4" offset (check for room in rear) for $160 ea.
http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDe...Code=C32-FU205-5515C
And traditional black and polished alum for $140
http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDe...Code=C32-FU205-5515B
And fully polished for $144
Yeah, Jim's car is a real looker!
Jim's are std 911 bolt pattern 5x130 mm - not wide five 5x205mm
Art posted:Musbjim has nice Fuchs that he has painted. Not sure of the source of the wheel. I think they have the traditional heart shape cutouts? He runs a little wider profile tire than norm. Gives his car that outlaw look.
Jim built it the way he wanted- no factory build sheet or urge to make it look like an original. His car definitely has that "look".
WOLFGANG posted:Jim's are std 911 bolt pattern 5x130 mm - not wide five 5x205mm
oops
Ok, let me help you here. 99.9% chance you have ball joint DISC Karmann Ghia spindles on there.
The ONLY way to accomodate both wide5 and Porsche 5 x 130mm pattern is with Airkewld brakes. You'll need ball joint drum spindles, but call Pete at Airkewld to confirm. 
They have a removable and swappable bolt pattern. Order a set with the extra bolt patterns and you can switch them out at will. They aren't cheap, but it will do what you want.
The single piston version is stock width(I think). The 2 piston and 4 piston caliper versions are not stock width, they are about 3/4" wider per side.
Good luck.
Michael B (aka bluespeedster SoCal) posted:Greg, may I PM you asking some questions about what you can supply and what I can do myself to convert my 2013 VS front disc and rear drum to wide 5's?
Absolutely.
Thanks, Danny.
I’ve always thought, and continue to think that there is no reason why the same principle as the AirKewld set up couldn’t be used with what Bob already has.
If the four bolt mounting holes were countersunk at the appropriate taper, M12 flat head socket cap screws could be used to anchor the existing adapter to the existing hub.
He would then be able to use drum skins, which is really what he’s after.
The front brakes are way easier than the back to get to wide-five,
I think you're on to answer - $8.84 for 5 on Amazon (that's for stainless - guess regular steel would be stronger). Bet local Mark T could taper the hole in the front rotors for him. Add some Locktite.
https://www.amazon.com/M12-1-7...C+Allen+Socket+Drive
I looked at this option at one point. Is it safe?
I’d like it better if the adapter were bigger and a little thicker, but I see no difference between that and AirKewld‘s package.
I’ll I don’t think there’s a single thing wrong with it for the way you drive, Bob
As with many automotive subjects, there are wide discrepancies of opinion regarding the safety of wheel adapters, spacers, longer lug nuts, etc. For extreme driving, rally cars, and autocross, the less material between brake drum and wheel, the better. For the way in which almost all of us drive, a problem with a quality adapter is extremely unlikely.
So, a competent machine shop is the next stop.
We have a bunch of places down here that specialize in building and customizing four wheelers and other mud machines. I suspect one of them could do this pretty easily, or know a machine shop that could.
Wolfgang, is Mark T still functioning well enough to do something like this? I remember his extensive shop in his garage. Do you remember him having the correct equipment to do this?
Thanks everyone for the input. I considered this same project several years ago, even ordering some bolts from McMaster-Carr, but got stalled out and distracted by something else, like twin high school age sons.
Mark hasn't posted here for a bit - but he does show up at local VDub events. I occasionally see him post on SAMBA. He has 2 huge milling machines/lathes. He is able to take a raw cast VW head and put plugs and valves into it so I'm sure he could taper the bolt holes for the beveled hex screws. Very talented guy. If not - he'd know of right place to go. I'd avoid the stainless steel ones I posted link to as straight steel is much stronger and features of stainless aren't really required. I'll send him a note.
Thanks. Ill send you the pic above so he can see what I want to achieve, thanks.
Ya know thinking about what you have now - the existing 4 bolt holes might be chamfered enough all ready to try the hex bolts you currently have. Worth a shot.
Bingo.
Mark is your Huckleberry.
WOLFGANG posted:Ya know thinking about what you have now - the existing 4 bolt holes might be chamfered enough all ready to try the hex bolts you currently have. Worth a shot.
They aren't chamfered at all.
Mark isn't interested per Wolfgang's communication with him. Nothing wrong with that, he is a good guy.
I'm going to hit a couple of machine shops and see what I can turn up.
PFFT- a countersink drill bit with the right taper and a drill press and you'd be done in 20 minutes, 30 if you stopped to sip a Diet Dr. Chemical.
Upon inspection, the mounting holes from the adapter to the brake are chamfered, just not wide enough to accept the bolts I have from McMaster-Carr. Also the brakes holes have a finer pitch than the new bolts as well.
If I can locate the same size and pitch but with a slightly smaller head, I may be in business.
McMaster-Carr may be one source, anybody have alternatives if they can't provide them?
Perhaps all you need are the right bolts. Just make sure the tops of them are flush with the adapter when fully tightened.
I suspect you’re going to need a deeper chamfer in the adapter. The more contact area the shoulder of the flathead bolt has with the chamfer of adapter, the stronger it will be. Stronger in this instance is definitely better. I would also make sure that the bowl to get out our hardened steel (I’m by no means a metric hardware expert, but 8.8 seems to be the metric equivalent of Grade 8).
Wheeel bolt/stud threads are either M12 x 1.5mm or M14 x 1.5mm. Those look REALLY coarse. They look like 1.75 or 2.0 mm pitch.
Stan, Am I correct that any decent machine shop should be able to open that chamfer up once I have the correct Grade 8 bolts?
Thanks, Danny. They are very coarse compared to what is in there now.
Absolutely. My point yesterday was mad I don’t even think you would need a machine shop for it.
If you can’t find somebody to do it, UPS them up to me, and I’ll get it done for you in a couple of days.
Thank you, Stan. I may well take you up on that.
