Front oil cooler

I'm toying with the idea of adding a front oil cooler. My IM will be a highway car and make some lengthy trips in the next few years. I'm looking for a cool running high speed cruiser.
Presently, I'm going over the pros and cons.
Pros:
-don't have to run an oil cooler fan
-lots of air flowing through the cooler at highway speeds

Cons:
-long oil lines-is a VW oil pump up to the task?
-where would I run the oil lines?

Comments?

I think you'd have too much pressure drop without auxiliary add on pump plus long lag in pumping oil to build up pressure without elaborate anti-flow back valve. I've seen on 911 but they are dry sump.

Ha - run lines inside car and you'll have heat in winter - heck move cooler inside and you'll have even more heat.

Over trans or in rear wheel well would be fine - even deck lid (I'd go double though). How about that whale tail deck lid (like CrHemi has on his black CMC)?

I think there's some wisdom in a Setrab cooler with moderately short lines, somewhere in the airflow outside of the engine compartment.
Mine's behind my seat, but Tom DeWalt's went into the wheel well behind the tire. Tom's might have been an Empi -- I don't remember -- and mine was similar. Neither was the Setrab cooler. They do the job, they're just not 72-pass appliances.
If the plumbing will support it, anywhere where it won't catch debris should work out well for you. The two I'm familiar with are below:

my oil cooler is behind the left rear wheel and does a very admirable job.

Tomm

If you dry sump it, you can put the cooler wherever you want. Just a thought...

There's a perfect spot in the front to mount an oil cooler, but as Wolfgang mentioned, the long lines might create a drop in oil pressure.
I'll probably start off with just the stock dog house oil cooler and add an cooler if the oil temperature gets too high.
Going the dry sump route might be an option-something I'll have to look into.

Ron - I wouldn't give up on adding a cooler. Good opportunity to add decent oil filter at same time. You can always add electric fan and thermostat at later date. Just the extra volume of oil is good engine insurance. Stock VW doesn't hold much at all. I didn't put one on when I rebuilt engine years ago. I don't want to disassemble entire engine to tap case (some say with care it can be done while assembled) so decided to go with the CB oil pump with 2 oil line take offs - even that requires removing the exhaust though. I'm doing it mainly to add a modern filter (1641cc engine).

If you're concerned about pressure drop (from the flexible lines bulging), run some hydraulic hard lines the length of the car with short flex lines at the ends. The bigger issue is having the oil in the lines and cooler drain back into the sump when the engine is off. If it does, you won't have any oil pressure at startup while the lines fill back up. To prevent that you need some check-valves in the lines close to the engine (that are spring-loaded to close with no pressure). Unfortunately, the check valves make it tough to change all your oil at once without disconnecting the cooler lines.

Ferry's reply ...

Oops...See below!

I believe you will need an additional oil cooler.

Keep it close to the engine and simple:

Setrap Fanpack with thermostat control
Mocal "sandwich" oil thermostat
Teflon lines

Good Luck

Joel, you're right. Keeping the oil cooler near the engine makes a lot of sense, but having an oil cooler up front looks SO right.....
I'm still looking into a dry sump setup. Hell, I'm going CB fuel injection and Boost crank fired ignition...why not throw in a dry sump (if the CB pump will fit under the crank fired ignition pulley).
Didn't a forum member from Vancouver run a dry sump setup on his speedster? Was it Bruce?

I have a slightly used (like for 6 weeks) CB dry sump pump and tank. I don't think the tank will be of much use for a speedster, I had it in my Spyder until I changed out to an Autocraft dry sump. I believe a reduced size pulley is needed to clear the front of the dry sump pump with the CB. I was using a power pulley anyhow and it cleared slightly, so you might want to keep that in mind....as a possible need. Having the 36-1 sensor ring for the crank fire will also complicate things a bit.

I am working on adding the crank fire to my Speedster engine with an Autocraft dry sump on it now, more than happy to post results of that effort when really underway...I just made a tank for it last week and mounted it yesterday, and then concluding last night it belongs on the passenger side of the car, not the drivers side....no need to have the plumbing crossing over itself.....and I am planning to use 2 oil coolers upfront also.....have not worked out the brackets or protection scheme to keep road dirt out of those yet....

By the way, I changed over from the CB dry sump to the Autocraft because I wanted more oil flow than the CB delivered, no issues with it other than I wanted the larger capacity of the Autocraft.

Spyder guys have been putting coolers up front and in the back for years. If the cooler is close, use AN-8 lines. My cooler is in the back over the transmission. Total loop length is less than 15 feet, including remote filter and thermostat. Oil only goes through the cooler when above 180, warms pretty quickly. I used the nylon outer sheath instead of stainless. Less abrasion but more expensive. Use AN-10 or 12 if going all the way up front with a cooler.

Jim, could you post some photos of your installed dry sump and tank? I am interested in going this route, but since I'll be using a crank fired pulley there may be clearance issues.

Joel Schlotz

Get rid of that Motorcraft filter and buy a WIX 51515R. You can purchase them at NAPA. WIX is by far the finest oil filter on the market.

By now, most NAPA stores stock or can get the 51515R from their warehouse. Some NAPA stores still have NAPA part # 1515R in stock, it's exactly the same filter (made for NAPA by WIX) only it has the NAPA name printed on the filter and the NAPA number as posted.

NAPA #1515R
WIX #51515R

some more details. I can mount the 36-1 wheel on the front or the back of my pulley, I think I will go for the front....serpentine system, power pulley, with sand seal....now add the toothed wheel....getting complex....and the rat's nest of wires does not yet have the electronic fuel injection or the megajolt wiring added in.... nor 4 guages....fuel mixture, real oil temps, real oil pressure, head temps, etc.....

As mentioed earlier, the oil tank will be moved to the paggenger side, hopefully today. I had a temporary brain fade when i put it on the drivers side, really dull in retrospect....

Ron,

Here are some photos that may help. The megajolt 36-1 wheel clears my oil pump by just a few thousandths of an inch, it will not clear the CB performance pump I have unless there is some additional machining done to the top of the pump as well as reducing the outer diameter of the toothed wheel...how much on either would have to be determined. It can be done, not just readily I suspect....

My oil tank I fabricated out of a 10# fire extinguisher that had expired. The aluminum AN-10 fittings came from Summit Racing as did the cap. It's capactity is about 1 gallon, so with 2 quarts in the tank, 2.5 quarts in the engine sump at rest, about .75 quart in the oil filter, 1+quart in the lines to the front of the car and back, as well as 1 quart in the 2 coolers, there is a lot of oil. Of course the real advantage is comes from oil being fed to the engine that is clean, free of bubbles, and circulates at a very low pressure, while the high pressure oil in the engine stays in the engine circut.....it can be cumbersome to change oil to say the least, but I ran my Spyder like this for some time.....need to keep in mind the oil tank needs to stay a the level of the bottom of the engine sump, otherwise the oil will drain into the engine and otherplaces when not being run (how to get 2 quarts of oil on the garage floor, don't ask me about that)

Larry Jowdy

I know about Wix filters and their relationship with Napa and even know the part numbers you are referencing from research I did several years ago.

As you know we use this type of high performance filter for it's high bursting pressure cannister to prevent a mess in cold start situations. Motorcraft FL-1HP filters are well suited for this and are very good quality.

I've been a hot rodder for 40 years and am really a Ford guy and recently purchased a Roush Performance Engine, 342RE, for a hot rod project I'm working on. This engine came from Roush with a Motorcraft FL-1HP filter on it.

Thanks for your concern and have fun with your VW's.

Larry,
Joel knows of what he speaks.
Many years ago he recommended a couple filters to me to replace the POS Fram filter my car came with from JPS. The Wix/Napa as well as the Motocraft.
Like you, Joel is a guy who has more knowledge about automobiles than most so-called "experts". He eats, drinks and shits cars.
Of all the years I've known him he has been dead-on with every bit of information and advice.
You two have a lot in common.

https://www.speedsterowners.com/forum/readmsg.asp?t=12190
https://www.speedsterowners.com/forum/readmsg.asp?t=14249

Hey Jim, looking good!

That's not brain fade, you just think Spyder, not those backwards Speedster motors! The first Porsche was mid-engine, wasn't it?

Danny,

You are of course correct...after 7 years of mid engine thinking I find myself "forgetting" to reverse some assembly planning for the rear engine. This was precisely that approach....I started hooking up hoses when it became very clear the tank needed to be on the other side of the car.....sort of like land mine detection, you always know where they are after you step on them....

off to the garage to see how I am going to mount the twin coolers up front....I have a pair of coolers much like John shows above, but I think I will approach the mounting a bit differently. The plan calls to fiberglass outside mounting points to the inside of each front fender and the inboard points to a bracket on the bumper mounting brackets....

Joel and Terry,

I'm not challenging anyone's knowledge but sometimes brand loyality can get in the way of facts. Joel, I too have over 40 years of automotive experience, actually 48 years. I too like Ford's and I've built and worked on, hot rods, stockers, restomods, sand rails, Porsche's and yes, VW's.

Jack Rousch builds Ford engines and uses mostly Ford parts, no wonder he uses the Motorcraft FL-1HP filter. It's a very prominent and viible part of the engine package.

When I was the Sgt. In charge of our fleet of 4,400 vehicles, many manufacturers dropped by to sell their product. We've taken apart many filters including WIX, Fram, Purolater, Motorcraft etc etc. The construction and filtering media differences are apparent. The WIX is superior to them all. Interestingly enough, at that time, the Fram HP1 and the Motorcraft FL-1HP were constructed exactly the same

The WIX 51515R has the same bursting pressure as the Fram Hp1 and the Motorcraft FL-1HP but the filtration material and construction of the WIX was superior.

If you do a search, Motorcraft filters don't show a listing on who manufactures them but, more than one friend who works for the Police division of Ford Motor Company told me that Honeywell, formerly Allied Signals makes the Motorcraft FL-1HP fileter for Ford. Honeywell/Allied Signals also makes the Fram HP1

This isn't meant to be a brain washing experiment and I'm not trying to impose my will on anyone so, make up your own mind and use what ever filter makes you happy.

In conclusion, the Motorcraft FL-1HP and the Fram HP1 filters and good filters but facts and testing have shown MEthat the WIX 51515R is superior.

wow.

I use the toilet paper kind. I think the wife gets them from Costco.

I've got everything I need to install a Frantz filter in place of my Wix spin-on.

Here you go:

http://www.frantzoil.com/TOILETPAPER.html

Larry,

What are the differences between the Wik and Fram oil filter?. The important features are the size of the particulate filtered from the oil a long with the flow rate and pressure drop across the filter. How about the water removed that is the result of combustion gases that leak into the oil. Minuscule I know. Do you have this data so we all could see? If so, please post

Thanks.

Before I retired, I had that data. I have no idea where it's located but,,,,some info is here: http://www.wixfilters.com/productinformation/index.html

here also, click on oil filter
http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/wix.aspx

and more here:
http://www.corolland.com/oil-filters.html

Amazing...

Also, thanks for great info Rick.

However, Clinical Studies have shown that "Charmin" Brand toilet paper is FAR SUPERIOR to "Costco" Brand.**

Now that we have that straight.

**(clinical studies were done years ago)

Larry,

Thanks for the info. I'm a retired mechanical design engineering manager. Standard filters are usually designed to remove 25 micron particles which is larger than the clearances on some rotating engine parts. So, a little research came up with the information below. Removing the 10/12 micron particles and larger will keep engine wear to a minimum.

WIX racing oil filters have a full metal base plate for superior strength. They also feature a silicone anti-drainback valve that stays flexible in extreme temperatures and keeps oil in the filter to prevent dry starts.

WIX racing oil filters use an upfront by-pass valve. This design is superior to top-mounted valves because it helps to keep oil from washing past dirty media and entering the engine. The glass-enhanced media in WIX oil filters offers greater efficiency, capturing more 10 to 12 micron sized particles than other cellulose/synthetic blend medias. They also have a coil steel spring to ensure internal filter parts are sealed properly.

Convinced me to use Wix# 5151R

Joel, just so you know, after much research, Charmin is NOT superior to Costco in one test. Now to me, this is the most important one. It is called the klingon-uranus test. If the TP(toilet paper) has a tendency to roll and have little pieces come off during the wipe action, then stick there, it is deemed NFG by me.

Charmin sucks! Costco TP rules!

However, I do agree with Larry, WIX filters are the best and the only filter I will use on my full-flowed hi-po VW type1. I blew a Fram HP-1 apart on a cold startup, once was enough. Maybe it was a defect, but I don't care.

Consumer Report has a recent toilet paper test and ratings, although they didn't test for oil filtering.

I sort of agree with Danny.

I need paper that does come apart in water so it doesn't clog up my septic tank. That has happened once with unhappy results for my Speedster carpet stored on my basement floor. I also had to get lot of hardwood flooring refinished.

Back to oil coolers...

I used an RX7 cooler, aluminum, about $40 off Ebay. They have an internal thermostat that usually fails so you pull that out then use a bolt, locking nut and a couple of washers to plug the hole and get rid of the thermostat. I then used a Mocal thrermostat that I also got off Ebay...AN 12 I think.

When I was going to put one in my 912 I got stronger oil springs that were specifically for that purpose. Easy swap and they are supposed to increase oil pressure. The package they came in said Porsche 256/912 and VW...still have them somewhere.

Also for the 912, since it was completely rebuilt I installed an Accusump preoiler. This again was an easy install and cheap insurance for a new/rebuilt engine I figured. Here's a 2 quart system but I think mine was a 1 quart, and didn't have a guage too. Looked little more than a disposable propane cylinder, some fitting and the selenoid.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Canton-2qt-Accusump-Oil-Accumulator-Kit-Electric-Valve_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem414b30ab5dQQitemZ280434355037QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories

Mine was about $200 20 years ago.

I see the difference between old and new Accusumps..

The new ones have a piston in the cylinder so they can be mounted in any position, the old ones did not have the piston and looked similar to a propane cylinder. You had to mount them with the outlet down and then as the oil entered the cylinder it compressed the air trapped in the top. The selenoid closed the valve when the car was turned off keeping that oil undedr pressure. Ignition on opened the valve and the pressurized oil flowed through the engine (you could hear it) preoiling before you turned it over.

An Accusump I bought at least 20 years ago had the piston.

It is unused and I would be willing to sell it to someone. It needs the electric valve.

I replaced it with a new one because I thought the piston was stuck in the old one. It turns out it wasn't. So, now I have two.

I consider the Accusump an alternative to the add-on sump below the engine.

You guys are funny.......NOT to throw anything else into the mix but in the before time I worked for several auto parts houses. Wix filters were always more expensive than any other brand. The Wix rep one day came in and was trying to get our parts house to switch to his "superior brand" of oil filters. He said for us to buy several different models of filters and he would bring a tool to cut them apart and compare construction.

We did. Well ALL of the other brands were junk compaired to what the Wix filter used on the inside.

That was in 1974. Is it true today? I don't know but what I do know is that as often as most people in the VW world change their oil filters unless they leak you won't have any signifigant reason to use one over the other other than maybe the "micron" size of particle filtered.

Bottom line is if you want something filtered use a Frantz and Charmin. Costco breaks down..........;)

The story about the Wix rep is 100% true but I had to close with a smart a$$ remark.

Back to the oil cooler thingie. I power my speedy with a CB Performance, Pat Downs engine specially built to my specs. Tom Blankenship has the same engine. I've at driven at highway speeds over the legal limit with outside air at 95 F ambient, Tennessee Mountains, North Carolina Mountains, etc. NO PROBLEM WITH OVERHEATING. Engine has an oversize sump and is free flowed (Brad Penn oil 20/50). . Note that all the engine tins are in place both top and under the cylinders. Why do I need an oil cooler?

You need an oil cooler because we obsess over improvements to our cars. Between Physics and Fluid Dynamics, we just KNOW that an oil cooler is better than no oil cooler. It certainly won't make the car worse. It just HAS to make it better. Now go do the right thing!