Front shocks..

Not too excited with the front shocks on Fern. They are oil filled 17.5" (measured from bottom to first washer) or 19.5" to end of top washer with the 2 bushings.

I think they are too long and not compressing enough. Would I be better off with like 14" so I can have a better travel?

Thanks in advance...

They have shocks for lowered cars ~

those are gas shocks and will jostle your teeth out on these cars.

How low is fern? I have an extra set of new oil filled real BOGE 356 shocks. I'll measure them tonight. they fit *really* low cars.

I ended up going with Monroe Air shocks in the front. fantastic ride quality and ~6 inches of adjustability if installed right (adjustable beam - modified)

Speaking of shocks ... it has been suggested to me that I try putting softer shocks on the Hoopty to improve handling. Any thoughts?

The shocks that are on the car now are gas-filled, and are basically the hardest shocks Cory could find. While turning or under braking on less-than-perfect road surfaces, the theory is that softer shocks will increase tire contact (and therefore traction) with the road.

I think that ultimately, we may want to get adjustable shocks, but for diagnostic purposes, I'd like to get cheap, stock "soft" Beetle shocks and install them on the car (all four corners). The car should "stick to the road" a little better than it is.

I'd be happy to listen to anyone's thoughts about this.

No mine are oil filled. I bought some gas shocks when we were re-building the car and they were horrible, so installed them on the Ghia and was terrible. So both cars have cheap oil filled. Just did 100 miles on the Ghia today to and back from the beach and it rides like a new car. Made me think about Fern......

Shorter shocks, 14-15" stretched would give me more travel.......I think, and should make the ride more dependent on suspension and less on torsion arms...

I have coil over adjustable on the rear and absolutely love the ride...The increased weight with the motor in the rear (I have IRS on Fern) this was a great addition

Am I on the right track?

Teresa - stiff shocks on these cars might be good on the track - which is where it looks like hoopty spends some time. If you want good (public) road handling - then i would definitely suggest oil-filled with sway bars. i don't have sway bars (narrowed front / air suspension / etc), but mine is more of a cruiser than a racer.


Mike - those coil-overs you have are the chrome - three stage ones right? i don't have first hand experience with those, but i thought they were quite stiff(?)

if you were getting sag - you could re-index your torsion bars.

In the rear they are and I love them on both cars. On the front I have the cheap oil filled on both and the Ghia (weight a TON more in the front) drives like a 80's cadillac [amazing]) Fern has the same oil filled but I am leaning towards that they shocks needs to be smaller.... 14.5-15"?

Off to CDN Tire tomorrow, I got a nice $100 gift card from dad..

Regarding "Hoopty' and stiff/weak shocks: There needs to be a proper mix of spring rate/sprung weight (and probably unsprung weight) and shock stiffness.
Lighter cars need lower spring rates and softer shocks. The shock's role is to keep the springing under control and the rubber on the road.
The pioneers of the Manx-type dune buggys (these are light cars - maybe 1250-1400 lbs) would remove leaves from the front beam (the technique is easy but ya gotta get it right) and soften the stock shocks by draining and diluting the fluid.
I did this on my buggy and I also had the rear torsions ground on a crankshaft grinder to reduce their rate appropriately. The buggy rides as good or better than a stock VW.

The Hoopty *looks* like a track car, but we mostly drive it on the streets. It is [currently] hard to handle, and a very not-smooth ride. It was mostly designed as a drag car, so stopping and turning aren't its specialties!

The front beams have been narrowed 3" on either side (for a total effect of a beam that is 6" narrower than stock). Cory doesn't think that any leaves were removed, but that they cut 3" off all the leaves. This would make the springs STIFFER than stock. Combined with the super-stiff shocks, and the extreme lightness of these cars, the front end has very little contact with the road.

I don't know if sway bars are possible on the Hoopty -- mostly because I haven't done much research about them, so I'm not sure where they attach on the car. But I am pretty sure that I can change out the shocks without too much difficulty -- I think.

Does anyone who's familiar with the Hoopty want to chime in here?

T:

Several of us are more than familiar with the Hoopty.

Stock sedan shocks - plain old oil filled, not gas shocks - should be more than adequate for your needs, especially on the front.

I might consider a sway bar for the front - you're running stock trailing arms and either a stock sedan bar mounted upside down or a 3/4" (19mm) sway-away would work well, although the stock bar would give a softer ride. I don't know if our favorite Super Chief ever installed a camber compensator on the rear (it might be a challenge with that narrowed rear end) but that might improve handling more than a front sway bar would, all things considered.

Part of your handling problem, too, is the narrower front and rear ends (due to wanting to run WIDE wheel/tire combos under a stock 356 shell w/o fender flares), and another contributor to ride jitters is the VERY quick rack and pinion steering set-up. You've got, what? 3/4 turn lock-to-lock? You breathe on the steering wheel and you're in the next county! a different rack with a better ratio might make you feel a LOT more confident underway.

So think about these tidbits and let us know in what direction you might be heading with this.

ciao....

gn

Even as a drag car, the softer shocks would help encourage rear weight transfer on fast starts. I would start with getting the wheel weights and then comparing to stock VW. Reduce spring rates and shock stiffness accordingly. I wish I could remember front weight on my buggy - I think about total 350 lbs. I believe what I did was to calculate spring rates (based on an assumed square bar twist) and then reduced just proportionately to the new weight. I think the spring rate is proportional to the bar area to the 4th power and the length. Something like that. Lopping off a total of 6 inches would stiffen the springs considerably. And then stiff shocks - just not a good combo.

I would also think long and hard about adding roll/sway bars. I pulled the stocker on my buggy and it handles well. I'm not sure of the theory but I know that the dirt buggy racers dont use a front bar. Again, think about the roll/sway bar as a stiffner-spring sometimes not allowing the other wheel to follow the road - real good for go-karts on a super smooth surface!

There is some pretty good suspension theory useful to these "buggy wagon" suspensions in a book by Fred Puhn (or Kuhn?) published around 1984 (I cant find my copy now, sorry).

Mike, you may want to do as I did. I modified the stock COFAP shocks as well as KYB GR-2s in the front.

I ground down the welds on the dust covers and then removed them. Then I removed about half the bump-stop, just slice it off with a razor blade. Should give you an extra 1.5 to 2 inches of travel. I then rewelded, ground, and repainted the dust covers.

This allows the car to use more of it's travel when lowered, but not lowered enough to use lowering shocks. This was the case on my Spyder, anyway, maybe the same for you Speedsters?

Initially, my Spyder was WAY too stiff in the front. The new bushings took a few thousand miles to break in, after several greasings. It wasn't the shocks as I had initially thought. Now, at 15K miles, the front end is supple and I have changed back to the KYB GR-2 gas-charged shocks. They perfectly match the somewhat aggressive ride I like in the car, and the adjustable shocks in the rear are set to match the front ride. I mean it is a sports car, isn't it? And an old-school one at that!

No sag at all in the rear, the car sits great. Just not happy with the front and was wondering if just standard run of the mill shocks at local flaps but 2-3" shorter will do the trick. Have torsion bar in the front just want a softer ride. Especially after driving in the Ghia which felt like I was in a Lincoln.

I'm going to give it a shot, going to find 14-15" shocks, oil filled, I don't like the gas ride at all.

Also time to grease the beams...


Thanks all.

Gordon - On the Hoopty, if the front beam is narrowed by 6" wouldn't a sway bar have to be reduced about the same to mate with trailing arms for attachment? Would heating and bending a sway bar not affect its spring capabilities (suspect not enough to make a difference)?

Another option as mentioned above is to remove the small torsion bars in the front tubes ( one or both ) to help w/ the light front end. I did this w/ my MG TD replica and it helped a bunch ( a little to much as I then added adjustable shocks to adjust height ) and rides like a dream and does hug the road. I plan on doing the same w/ my speedster project, but will start w/ one tube and then two if required.

Dale

i took out 3 front leaves from mine (narrowed 3.5" total). i took detailed pics of how i did it because you want to make sure the mounting points (middle and both ends have a full leaf stack). i cut them, welded the pieces on where they should go, then ground the welds smooth, then greased.

It didn't used to move at all with a full stack in there. now it gives like a regular car does, and the oil shocks smooth it out. It's surprisingly a very very smooth ride.

Mike - before you go buy crappy tire ones, have you considered air shocks? you can do it without the compressor / tank, all that stuff. i think i got them down to $120cdn at lordco (were close to $200 - but i pointed them to the website that had them listed chaeper and they price matched).

that way - you can play with ride quality / firmness and fiddle with height. food for thought.

Mike, if you go the gas shock route, it sounds like Teresa might shortly have four KYB GR-2s to send your way.
They're the best shocks I could find when we were building the car, and they came recommended. I'm sure, as time goes by, we're going to be able to write a book about the amount of things we've re-done.
The beam was the EASY part to shorten. The rear torsion was a bitch; the tube, the rods, the axles, the IRS-to-swing conversion, the modification of the torsion caps ... what a PITA! I'll never do that again. It was almost as much pain as Mickey's IRS-shortening adventure!

I'm sure glad the intrepid Mrs. Drake isn't afraid to get her hands dirty -- and that she likes the Hoopty!

The pretty good reference book on handling, which has pretty good stuff on setting up roll bars and spring/shock rates etc is:

"How to Make Your Car Handle" by Fred Puhn, HP Books,1981.

I think it might still be in print. The newer handling/suspension info/books have left swing arms and front trailing arms waayyy behind.

As I recall, VW/Porsche first put the front roll bar on to reduce the dreaded swing axle oversteer. Increasing front stffness makes the front more likely to push/understeer - thus giving a band aid to the yucky swing axle/rear engine design. When you lighten up the front, AND stiffen the front roll bar you make understeer much more likely. On light cars like glass dune buggies the stock front roll bar is thus way too stiff.

Stan, as you can see from the drag-pits shot above, our car has a lot in common with a sand-rail dune buggy ... the kind you buy as a tube-frame kit or make from scratch. I chose to go the latter route, on advice from the guy who helped me build it. He makes dragsters for a living, so now we're having to re-tool the car for the street. I think my pride probably prevented me doing that over the last couple years.
That's good advice. Thanks!

Cory,
Oh wow. I have "sand rail": it came (used) with shocks that were incredibly stiff and double in the rear. These guys jump these suckers and need stiff shocks to keep the suspension from coming out the other side. I converted mine to be just recreational and fitted essentially street VW shocks so my butt survived.

Cheers,
StanS

Well I thought I would install the new Gas KYB-GSR shocks that I had lying about in the garage. Took off the EMPI oil filled ones. When I installed the gas ones I noticed that the insert at the bottom of the shock was about 3/8" wider on both sides and I thought that was weird. I installed anyway and went for a safe test drive.

Car was OK until I hit a bump and it felt like the front end was about to come off..... until it smoothened out. Limped home...

Took them off and re-installed the Empi oil filled to see if this was the issue.

It was.

So this is the question for the brain trust or is it brain drain...?

***Having the bottom insert wider than the bottom width of the shock, did this change my alignment? I think it does!

So back to the old ones and I'm going to live with it. I did notice that the gas shocks were about 1" higher at the highest than what's on the car. The ones on the car EMPI's were not too difficult to compress either, actually rather easy to compress although with weight on they are not bottomed out either.

No, the shocks didn't change your alignment. The gas shocks may have added 1/2" to the ride height, but that can be adjusted out. The 1/2" in height may have changed your toe-in a smidgen, but not enough to feel it I would think.

I think you are bottoming out under compression. Try my fix with the shock bumpers, it really works.