Front Swaybar

@IaM-Ray posted:

That make sense.  Now that I think about it, there must be a function of weight, suspension, etc that must be all balanced together as well as the front and rear.

That's it exactly.

IMHO, you want a front sway bar especially with a swing-axle, because the snap-oversteer baked in the cake with a rear-engine, swing-axle car should be the one thing you are thinking about all the time. A front sway bar induces the tendency to understeer (to some degree)-- which is an excellent way to keep from oversteering.

To clarify regarding rear sway bars-- swing axle cars do not run a rear sway bar, as they already struggle with oversteer. What is needed in a swing axle car is some way to limit positive camber (the "wheel tuck" graphically shown in the pictures above). Swing axle cars run limit straps or camber compensator bars to help keep this from happening, at least to some degree. Lowering a swing-axle car will also set the ride height in such a way as to increase negative camber under normal conditions, which gives you more suspension travel before the camber goes positive (and tries to kill you).

I'd not run a swing-axle car without a front sway bar and a camber compensator, but I'm just a pansy that way. Regardless of how well my friend Mitch can write about it, I'd rather dance with an IRS car than negotiate with a swing-axle.

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My particular car is equipped with a compensator no one has mentioned yet - a spousal regulator in the right seat.

The grab handle on the dash is just at the edge of my peripheral vision, and if there's a hand on it, I'm pulling too many g's. This is calibrated to kick in way before the axle tucks.

I have driven a few IRS cars and there's a quantum leap there. If you want to go fast as the term is understood in the modern world, get you some IRS. If you're OK with yesteryear motoring, make sure to read Gordon's post above and you'll be OK with the swing axles.

BTW, if you drive a coupe and don't read Gordon's post and don't have a spousal regulator, sooner or later your car will look like this:

If you drive a convertible and don't read Gordon's post and don't have a spousal regulator, sooner or later your head will look like that.

Be careful out there, kids.

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Porsche won many races with this dysfunctional arrangement.

Impala, I lived in St. Petersburg, Boca Raton, Orlando and just South of the Golden Glades interchange for about 10 years. I was in Florida building mechanical systems,  mostly hospitals and the Swan Hotel @ Disney.

It was not the drivers that scared me! It was the damn CAR!

If your swing axle car, what ever it is, feels good and safe to you and you believe that Porsche didn't really need to spend all of that money on development and racing then please drive on. But do it real slow.

As for me, I'll make it the very best I have the ability to do.

Ah, ah ,ah ah, stayin' alive...

@Sacto Mitch posted:

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My particular car is equipped with a compensator no one has mentioned yet - a spousal regulator in the right seat.

The grab handle on the dash is just at the edge of my peripheral vision, and if there's a hand on it, I'm pulling too many g's. This is calibrated to kick in way before the axle tucks.

I have driven a few IRS cars and there's a quantum leap there. If you want to go fast as the term is understood in the modern world, get you some IRS. If you're OK with yesteryear motoring, make sure to read Gordon's post above and you'll be OK with the swing axles.

BTW, if you drive a coupe and don't read Gordon's post and don't have a spousal regulator, sooner or later your car will look like this:

If you drive a convertible and don't read Gordon's post and don't have a spousal regulator, sooner or later your head will look like that.

Be careful out there, kids.

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Funny post but very informative. In my case my spousal regulator not only uses the hand but is also aural in nature and it’s set up on the very conservative side 🤣. That car that you show in the photos is Jared’s; he was and might still be a member in here. Very original and solid (down to the paint) ‘65. He’s been straightening it out on his YouTube channel and doing a nice job; I just wish he’d touch up the paint after straightening it out (he wants to keep the battle scars).

@Jim Gilbert - Madison, Mississippi posted:

Porsche won many races with this dysfunctional arrangement.

Impala, I lived in St. Petersburg, Boca Raton, Orlando and just South of the Golden Glades interchange for about 10 years. I was in Florida building mechanical systems,  mostly hospitals and the Swan Hotel @ Disney.

It was not the drivers that scared me! It was the damn CAR!

If your swing axle car, what ever it is, feels good and safe to you and you believe that Porsche didn't really need to spend all of that money on development and racing then please drive on. But do it real slow.

As for me, I'll make it the very best I have the ability to do.

Ah, ah ,ah ah, stayin' alive...

Agree 100%; that’s exactly how I set mine up, with a camber compensator plus it’s riding a little lower in the back (to duplicate the stance of an original) and an anti sway bar in the front plus I have quite a few tools and other stuff in the frunk. And on top of that I try not to pass myself off as a race car driver and drive accordingly. My spousal regulator helps with that. 🤣

Ricardo, first of all, you do you. Our opinion don't mean jack to your enjoyment.

For a nice original style swing axle car, I do think the advice of a camber compensator and sway bar is sage advice, though.  Even a relaxed, cruising style driver will eventually have to take evasive action when some texting yutz wanders into their path.  It's super cheap insurance you'll never notice otherwise.

The big thing that's changed since the 50's is that an old, round shouldered, bias ply 145/16 tire would break traction pretty early and allow the "Wischen" slide, tail happy cornering of the early 50's.  Now, even an El Cheapo modern radial will supply more traction than a mid 60's race tire, overwhelm the system in evasive maneuvers, and then we're off to jacked axle city.

You know exactly what you want to do with your car, and that's good.  Go with Greg's advice.  He really knows what he's talking about and he's great to work with.  He's building me a coupe and my plans is: IRS, tuning the suspension to the best it can be, sticky tires, Suby power, and an up to date will&testament.  And that's me, and I bet we'd still have a great time sharing a beer.

Good luck with the project!

Michael

Up to date Will . .   I like that one.

IRS. Who needs it?

I'll take the Pepsi challenge, in fact already did in NC a couple months ago. Stan had his IRS IM with sticky Vreds and rack and pinion steering and I think front and rear anti-sway bars.

I had a prehistoric swing axle rear, "touring" all season tires and honestly barbaric steering box. I kept up, ask him. There were corners where he was better, and there were corners where I was. Mostly I think that was gearing(no we're not going there HERE).

I will add that my Spyder runs about 3.5 degrees negative camber in the rear and positive camber is limited by straps to about 2 degrees positive. There will be no "tuck" on my watch!

I also have very good shocks(Koni adjustable front and QA1 adjustable coilovers rear) and a custom-made 16mm front bar.

I also have 45,000 miles of seat time, so that may be a factor. AutoX a Spyder. You'll either learn car control or just give up. Run some DEs(Driver Education), on track. If you want to go fast, you should invest in yourself. Plus, it's FUN to learn.

My car is set up very neutral, to slightly understeer but easily oversteer with throttle steering or sometimes abrupt intentional wheel motion or some trail-braking.

In fact today I negotiated a 20 mph slightly less than 90 degree right-hander today in my Cayman at close to 50 in second gear. I floored the throttle right at the apex and the rear started to slightly step out. I was already cranking in opposite lock before the nanny kicked in and stopped the rotation.

PSM(Porsche Stability Management), it was the first time I'd activated it in the dry. Pretty cool, it saves a lot of guys I'm sure.

Anyway, the point of all this is you can drive a swing axle car HARD, if it's properly set up. But if your butt doesn't get tingly with spider-sense, you're probably better off not going that fast.

Get a front bar and a camber comp as MANY have suggested. Pay attention to tires and tire pressure, and have a proper alignment done.

After all, it says "Speedster" or "Spyder" on the side, not "Sunday Putter"!

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Danny, I could have sworn the first time you told this story, Stan was stuck through the corners while you were working hard to hold onto a drift. Some stories are like green tires - they improve with age!

OK sorry, just having some fun here. Yeah, you can drive a swing axle hard. But you worry a lot doing that. Or, at least I think you should, until you know your car well. With IRS, there's less to worry about. You get more of a warning before you're in the weeds. And at the limit, you're more likely to slide than flip.

You can, of course, make any suspension better (which I think is what the OP was asking about) so what you've done to your car is good to know. But for someone new to these cars, I think the message should be that swing axles are something to be wary of and approached with some respect.

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Yep.

Danny's well-sorted, 1500 lb, mid-engined, coil-over equipped, limit-strapped, purpose built, lowered Spyder honed to a razor's edge over 15 years of constant refinement and driven by a racing-license holding hot-shoe can run neck and neck with a 2000 lb IRS equipped, rack-and-pinion steered, Koni shocked, heavy torsion-barred science-fair Speedster with fluffy seats, good rubber, and 3/4 sway bars... but driven by a deaf and blind ham-fisted gorilla with a bad case of juvenile delinquency.

I'm not sure what that proves about a swing-axle Vintage on 165s with no front sway bar driven at a more stately pace by more sane people.

I'm sticking with my advice, because it might save somebody's life.

If you've got a swing-axle car-- get a stock sway-bar and a camber compensator, even if all you are doing is profiling down to the DQ on a Friday evening. It's like decent brakes-- you never know when you'll need 'em.

If you have a choice, get IRS. Put good shocks, tires, and sway-bars on it. Do it for the children.

What I learned a long time ago learning to drive open wheel Formula Fords.

A tire can do 3 three things, steer, brake and accelerate and it can never due any one of these things at 100 percent all at the same time.

If you have an area ( empty parking lot) and about a half dozen cones, place them in a straight line about two car lengths apart. Drive through the cones in and out in a sweeping pattern to get the feel. Now that you know the rhythm, as you go through each cone increase your speed at every entrance until you get to the last cone entrance and lift completely off of the gas.

If you've pushed hard enough the result  will be something you will never do again...Never Lift. The result is that the car was in balance sharing acceleration and steering and once you lift and set acceleration to zero you are now steering 100 percent. This is exacerbated on a swing axle car but controllable once you experience that transfer of motion from rear to front.

My two cents and points for not bringing up _earing.

"Danny's well-sorted, 1500 lb, mid-engined, coil-over equipped, limit-strapped, purpose built, lowered Spyder honed to a razor's edge over 15 years of constant refinement and driven by a racing-license holding hot-shoe can run neck and neck with a 2000 lb IRS equipped, rack-and-pinion steered, Koni shocked, heavy torsion-barred science-fair Speedster with fluffy seats, good rubber, and 3/4 sway bars... but driven by a deaf and blind ham-fisted gorilla with a bad case of juvenile delinquency."

I just have to join you two next year...let's hope.

Yes.  Yes you do Bob.

Of course, as I posted above, I'm totally in agreement with the advice to run at least a factory anti-sway bar AND a camber compensator for a swing axle Speedster.

Or get IRS which is clearly better.

With narrow 165 tires and the tail-wagging engine, you will be warned far sooner in a Speedster than I am in my Spyder. It's physics. Those tail-wagging warnings will give you that pucker feeling to back it down a little before you get too far out of shape.

And Bob, please join us, wherever we end up going. You'll enjoy it!

And for all those with the right-seat throttle-control devices: you can take one ride "for the boys" like we did.

And @Stan Galat : you're a lot smoother than you give yourself credit for.

@Sacto Mitch : maybe I was sliding, but it was due entirely to tires IMHO. Can't wait to get the Vreds.

And I don't have a racing license. I have some time in a bunch of different cars on track, yes.

Spyder Danny wrote about his Cayman Nanny experience: "I was already cranking in opposite lock before the nanny kicked in and stopped the rotation."

You see, Danny has this special button on the dash of his Cayman marked, "Driver Nanny".

When it is activated, Mrs, Doubtfire appears in the back seat (and it's a good thing she's only 4'-9" tall to fit in back there) and she constantly monitors your driving habits.  If you try to do something which she doesn't approve she simply gives you a whack side the head and calmly says, "Now, Danny.....   You know you shouldn't be racing like that, don't you?  Get it back to a sensible speed before I give you back control".

She's always back there.......   Watching you.

My right seater grab handle, specially put in place by Henry.  He felt a dash grab handle just wouldn't do the trick.

And  yes, it does get used a lot...

You know, it took me a few seconds to find it but that's rather nice!  

Lots more convenient than the typical dash mounted handle and the passenger can grab it in abstract terror while saving face with the driver who can't (or shouldn't) see it in action.  I love it!

@Gordon Nichols posted:

Spyder Danny wrote about his Cayman Nanny experience: "I was already cranking in opposite lock before the nanny kicked in and stopped the rotation."

You see, Danny has this special button on the dash of his Cayman marked, "Driver Nanny".

When it is activated, Mrs, Doubtfire appears in the back seat (and it's a good thing she's only 4'-9" tall to fit in back there) and she constantly monitors your driving habits.  If you try to do something which she doesn't approve she simply gives you a whack side the head and calmly says, "Now, Danny.....   You know you shouldn't be racing like that, don't you?  Get it back to a sensible speed before I give you back control".

She's always back there.......   Watching you.

Very funny, Gordon, but I have no 911, and therefore no back seat.

Bob, I like the handle.

When we were in NC, Lenny rode in my right seat for the Rattler, but only used the lap belt. His handprints are all over the dash...

When Lane took a short turn the afternoon we arrived, I believe he put on all 5 points, and stayed put rather well.

I dislike the crotch belt, but I do like the ease of focusing on what you're doing rather than trying to keep yourself in the seat.

@Bob: IM S6 posted:

My right seater grab handle, specially put in place by Henry.  He felt a dash grab handle just wouldn't do the trick.

And  yes, it does get used a lot...

That is really cool Bob, nice job on that one for sure. The dash handle I always felt was at risk of being pulled off IMO.

@Bob: IM S6 posted:

"Danny's well-sorted, 1500 lb, mid-engined, coil-over equipped, limit-strapped, purpose built, lowered Spyder honed to a razor's edge over 15 years of constant refinement and driven by a racing-license holding hot-shoe can run neck and neck with a 2000 lb IRS equipped, rack-and-pinion steered, Koni shocked, heavy torsion-barred science-fair Speedster with fluffy seats, good rubber, and 3/4 sway bars... but driven by a deaf and blind ham-fisted gorilla with a bad case of juvenile delinquency."

I just have to join you two next year...let's hope.

Wow, that is a good idea, I always thought it was a bit late in the season but  I feel so much like I am in prison at times with the times we live in maybe when the border opens I may join you guys and see how those twisties are to drive in real life.  Sounds like the drive is real fun.

Hey, speaking of the border opening up (or not....)  I want to share a story:

Back on December 6, 1917 a French ammunition ship bound for Europe blew up in the harbor in Halifax, Nova Scotia, after striking another ship in the narrows.  1,500 homes were completely destroyed (most of the area of North Halifax), 2,000 people were killed and over 9,000 injured.  Word quickly reached Boston where a large medical and supply train was assembled at lightning speed, complete with a large staff of Boston doctors, nurses and battlefield-style medical supplies.  

Because of the threat of snow in the Maritimes, the train was fronted by a special snow-plow engine followed by four more drive engines and included a number of cars of medical personnel and many cars of supplies.  It sped to Halifax to help in whatever way they could, arriving literally the next day and the first train to arrive from the Northeast USA.  Many lives were saved by this effort as the local and regional hospitals were totally overwhelmed with patients so the trains dispatched to help were converted into "mobile hospitals" and staffed with the arriving medical personnel.

Halifax has never forgotten this effort and for many years, now, has presented Boston with the Christmas gift of a 40' - 50' tall Canadian Balsam Evergreen as Boston's lighted Christmas tree on Boston Common.  It is a big deal in Nova Scotia for a farmer to have their tree selected for this honor (the farmers are always invited to the celebration, too) and this year was only a little different.  The border is closed between our two countries for road traffic and the tree traditionally comes to Boston via truck, complete with the flag of Nova Scotia on both sides.

Apparently neither side, Halifax nor Boston, wanted to deal with their respective national governments for a transport waiver (and Boston is not one of Trump's favorite cities).  It's simply too big to fit into an aircraft to fly it over, but someone found that there is still some container ship traffic allowed between our countries, so the tree was carefully bound in netting and slings and lowered into an open-topped shipping container, loaded onto a Finnish (I believe) container ship who's next port was Boston and arrived the next day.  It was erected on Boston Common and we had our annual (virtual) tree lighting ceremony just last evening, all broadcast on TV with the smiling farmer couple in virtual attendance from their home in Nova Scotia.

You Canadians are really cool.

Thanks for the history lesson Gordon, pretty neat.

Thanks for that Gordon.  Many of us up here are aware of the Halifax explosion.

Yes, as you say, we are very cool...

Gordon,

I have a summer home in N.S. they are good tough people who don't suffer fools. Needless to say this year I did not spend my summer on the Medway.  Cheers.

@JMM (Michael) posted:

Ricardo, first of all, you do you. Our opinion don't mean jack to your enjoyment.

For a nice original style swing axle car, I do think the advice of a camber compensator and sway bar is sage advice, though.  Even a relaxed, cruising style driver will eventually have to take evasive action when some texting yutz wanders into their path.  It's super cheap insurance you'll never notice otherwise.

The big thing that's changed since the 50's is that an old, round shouldered, bias ply 145/16 tire would break traction pretty early and allow the "Wischen" slide, tail happy cornering of the early 50's.  Now, even an El Cheapo modern radial will supply more traction than a mid 60's race tire, overwhelm the system in evasive maneuvers, and then we're off to jacked axle city.

You know exactly what you want to do with your car, and that's good.  Go with Greg's advice.  He really knows what he's talking about and he's great to work with.  He's building me a coupe and my plans is: IRS, tuning the suspension to the best it can be, sticky tires, Suby power, and an up to date will&testament.  And that's me, and I bet we'd still have a great time sharing a beer.

Good luck with the project!

Michael

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^See Above^^^^^^^^^^^^^^See Above^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Also not mentioned (except obliquely): A Spyder's torsion arms are noticeably longer than those on a Bug or 356: about 26 inches long instead of 16. I think that makes them less prone—though not immune—to jacking.

That an IRS 356 can out-handle the best swing axle 550 tells you all you need to know about the IRS advantage.

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@edsnova posted:

...That an IRS 356 can out-handle the best swing axle 550 tells you all you need to know about the IRS advantage...

That, and the fact that VW and most of the civilized world gave up on swing axles fifty years ago.

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FWIW, most of the world gave up on Speedsters and Spyders 80 years ago.

@edsnova posted:

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^See Above^^^^^^^^^^^^^^See Above^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Also not mentioned (except obliquely): A Spyder's torsion arms are noticeably longer than those on a Bug or 356: about 26 inches long instead of 16. I think that makes them less prone—though not immune—to jacking.

That an IRS 356 can out-handle the best swing axle 550 tells you all you need to know about the IRS advantage.

I guess we'll see once the two cars are on the same tires.

@dlearl476 posted:

FWIW, most of the world gave up on Speedsters and Spyders 80 years ago.

FOOLS! We'll show them.

We'll show THEM ALL!

this thread has gotten to the level of discussing gear ratios.................