Fuel Injection Questions

Is it feasible to install a fuel injection system on a Speedster, rather than twin Webers? Do FI systems require less tuning than Webers? Any disadvantages of FI vs. Webers? If so, who makes the best FI system? Redline? Anything else I should know? This would be on a 1915cc engine.

Go to CBPerformance.com. They have complete F.I. systems with info and prices. Turbos too!

Greg B

barry, look at "shoptalkforums.com" under fuel injection forum.
lots of info. I heard that the cb system was going to upgrade to a more tuneable system (don't know if this happened yet)the original
was fixed. All the bits and pieces are early 80's geo metro.

I wonder if anyone has ever just salvaged a fuel injection system off of a Subaru engine. A 2200cc engine would have the same basic parameters and needs as a VW 1915....in fact it may work perfectly?

I just wonder why no one has ever setup an aftermarket kit using the same basic parts and control. I'm guessing Cobbtuning would have no problem doing such a thing and could sell a lot of them.

Go to the Shop Talk Forum, Fuel Injection Thread. Read about all the "fun" these guys are having.

The VW Type 1 is much different from the Subaroo and the parameters would probably be way off.

Sucess depends on the cam, runner length, lots of sensors, position of injectors, shape of chamber, the map.... You just don't bolt on the parts and drive off.

Love those Webers.

This project would apply to a possible new build, with FI installed instead of carbs, so it would be no problem trying to squeeze the things into the engine compartment (such as might be the case with a built car, since the engine would be on an engine stand. Seems to me that if I had a choice, I would go with FI, but I don't know anyone who has FI. I have had Webers and tire of keeping the things at the top of their performance curve....hex bar wear, etc.

Forget it.
Unless you want to contract the work out to a shop that does conversions and (even then probably hasn't done one on a Type1 configuration) pay many, many dollars, carbs are best suited to the everyday Type 1.

Dale and I have a mutual chum who made F.I. his goal, his destiny, his every waking thought. He spared no resource, intelectual or financial. He was going to fit his car with a 'clean' FI system.

He found that the 'kit' F.I. systems were incomplete and ill-conceived. He found that computer mapping was a mystery even to those at the help desks across these United States of VW parts.

In the end he had two, possibly three set-ups. One was a basic throw-away as I recall despite his best efforts. One got his car running and in the end, didn't perform as consistantly well as his carbs and I think didn't pass the smog (?). There was a glimmer of hope with a basic Mexican VW beetle single throat rig that was going to have to be re-programmed and retro-fit for performance.

There was an individual out-of-state working to perfect this last set-up and our buddy had been in constant contact with him for months to no avail. But last I heard, our chum gave up, packed all the FI in boxes and reinstalled his carbs, bought a sail boat and headed out to sea...

... and boy, do I miss him.

I installed an aftermarket fuel injection system on a 13B rotary engine. After initial start up issues, it ran without flaw. The system allowed adjustment at different parameters and used a Mass Air Flow sensor, but no knock sensor (kinda moot on a rotary) or O2 sensor. Significantly crude by todays standards (this was 1990 or so).

For a whole lot less money and more performance, I could have carbureted the same engine. As time has gone on, the are FI systems for that engine (aftermarket) that are very good as well as adaptations of the factory engine.

Unfortunately, that does not seem to exist for a type1. On the other hand, the typeIV was fuel injected from the factory. In a mildly modified state of tune, the injection on a typeIV (like a 914 2.0 liter) may prove suitable for your uses Barry. Older factory fuel injection systems are limited in the performance area to "pretty close 2 stock" on most of them as they lack sophisticated electronic controls and metering. But if you aren't too crazy you can still get a pretty decent engine for a wee spyder/speedster.

Why not check with Jake Raby and see what he thinks? angela

I think the big reason for someone to use a Fuel Injection system in a TypeI is because is less adjustments and looking for something more reliable.

I heard that Weber Carbs. Need a lot of adjustments. There are other carburetors brands? more reliable with less adjustments needed? And it is so, why so many people with typeI engine use the Webers?

I might be able to offer something here.

My first car was a 1776 with dual 40 IDFs- not too much carb for a nicely built 1776, but mine was not nicely built. It had stock heads, a 1-3/8 Empi quiet pack, and a 110 cam. It also had one throat I could never get dialed in, and there were issues with plugged idle jets.

My second car had roughly the same 1776 (same stock heads, same 110 cam), but it had dual ICTs. That car ran really well, was exceptionally easy to set up, and never had ANY carb related problems.

When I was building the engine for this car, I knew I wanted more power than a set of ICTs would support. Everybody on this site was raving about AJ Sims Kadron kits, so I called him. I was building a 2110, but I didn't have any cam, head, or carb specs other than that I wanted about 130 hp or so. AJ said "no problem", and recommended a set of his highly modified Kads, with the 46 mm throttle bodies, and big vents. He also recommended his heads, and a cam. I bought the whole thing- the carbs cost every bit as much as a set of 44 IDFs, and then some. He dynoed the setup at 145 hp, with a big/flat torque curve.

Long story made short- I never could get them to run right in the car. I had a lot of "dribbling" out the accelerator pump, which AJ attributed to high fuel pressure. I ground down the accelerator pump pushrod until I had the recommended 1-1/2 psi, but the flooding problem persisted. I made it my mission to make the big Kads work. I sent them back to AJ twice, each time the problem was there after a two week turnaround.

In desperation to drive my car this spring- I called Art at ACE in Salt Lake City. He recommended walking away from the Kads, and going with a set of his Dellortos. I told him what I had, he gave me his recommendation. I bought them. They came pre-jetted, and adjusted. I bolted them on the car, and was driving around in the afternoon. I've never touched them after I synced them up with a snail tool. They have great throttle response everywhere, and are everything I hoped for.

In the middle of all this, I followed Bill Steele through his EFI Odyssey, because I REALLY didn't want to do IDFs. I'd do Dells again in a heartbeat, but if a nice set weren't available (and they haven't been made in years), I'd have no reservations about doing IDFs, set up by someone really good (like Art).

EFI would be the best possible solution, but there are a lot of reasons it isn't going to happen. Good carbs are the next best thing. I'd put ICTs on anything up to about 90 hp or so, and Dells or IDFs on anything bigger.

Good luck.

So, Dellortos it's the way to go?

So Bill's off sailing? He already owned my dream house, so why not my dream boat too.
-=theron

Stan touched on something I too learned in my carb count... Art Thraen really knows his stuff. He seems to be available to counsel those of us at a the carb crossroads.

Read through past threads on this site on the subject. While I respect and admire you guys that can do your own engine work, sometimes I think it must be a curse too. I read with waning interest all the verbage about dialing in carbs... are you ever happy???

They work good for a while then they need adjusting. What doesn't? Oh yeah FI; everywhere except under the the lid on a Type1. These cars are based on cars and comprised of parts (systems?) that were built long before the 100,000 mile service-less cars of today.

I think to get the best of both worlds, as some seem to desire, you have to look past Type1 engines like Hoss and those in the Subie corral or as Henry at IM is angling towards with a newer, in-line(?), VW engine completely different than the current speedster 'convention'...

I have the CB fuel injection and turbo kit. They make a kit with low profile trottle body hat specifically for our speedsters. You can probably get the kit without the turbo.

As far as the FI goes. the kit works pretty good. The tuning is easy. They provide a dash mount control. You can tune the low speed with a twist of a knob. This work awesome. For example, while sitting in traffic VW engines tend to heat up due to low revs and non existent air flow. I just turn the know to richen it up and the head temps go down. No more idle jet changes. The control module also has a mid range and wide open trottle adjustment as well as an adjustment for swithing from mid to WOT.

My car runs a little rough when cold. but once warmed up, It runs great.

You may want to wait for the new CB system to come out. I hear its a better system. But hey my system works fine.

There is the link for the CB Fuel Injection

http://www.cbperformance.com/catalog.asp?ProductID=281

Hi Barry: I have had a race tech SDS EFI system running in my speedster for about 4 years now. Before that I had Dells. The motor started as a 2007 with stock heads and now is a 2275 with all the bells and whistles. To answer your questions:
-Is it feasible? For most no. Dollars to drivability no. For me kinda. Much of the benefit of my EFI project was to build it and learn it.
-In general a reasonably configurable EFI system has far more adjustability than carbs.
-I think that a big disadvantage / Advantage is the adjustability. You can optimize everything if you take the time.
-I don