Gauges and Switches

I had a '63 356 Karmann Coupe - that cable-driven tach was a real headache.  The cable was so long that the tach jumped and was worse in cold weather.  Finally, the cable broke or jammed.  I'd look for a '65 or later electric tach rather than a cable-driven one.  If you have a VW front suspension then the left front spindle and cap should have the hole for the speedo cable.  Pop hub cap to check. I'd drill a separate hole for the cable and grommet.  You want a gentle bend in the drive cable for it to read properly.  I'd personally stick with GPS one if you want accuracy (tire/wheel size are most likely different from the 165/80x15" OEM tires).

Thank you.  I guess that’s why PA Speedo can get $1,600 for an electronic tach.  Unless I hear other votes of confidence, I’ll save my pennies and bite the bullet on an electronic refurb.

I still want a 356 speedo though.  The GPS doesn’t work well, I prefer the analog readout dials, and it just looks so much better than the modern VDO one.  Thanks for the advice to drill a new hole.  I hear that the bends in the cable are to be very gentle.  I have read other threads about cable length to be able to mount the speedo on the right side if I decide to go that route.  I haven’t decided on that.

Be sure to measure your gauge holes in the dash before doing the swap - replicas are 100mm and OEM ones were 105mm.  Not an issue if going bigger - but a mix of sizes might catch your eye as off. Some use a rubber gasket to compensate.

Thank you.  I will measure the OEM 356 Combo gauge against the modern VDO combo gauge that is in there.  I think they are the same, but I will double check.  If the OEM one is larger, I will ask Greg to handle changing the hole.

I am not going to be mixing and matching, however.  The combo and speedo will be OEM 356.  The tach will be a rebuilt / reconfigured OEM 356 from PA Speedo with electronic internals.  So, basically all are OEM 356.

I don’t know what size the 356A gauges* are, but the Porsche PET lists the B&C gauge rubber rings at 95mm. The 65-66 911-912 (and 914**iirc) gauges were 100mm.

I’ve been doing a lot of research because I’m contemplating losing my worthless fuel gauge and having PAS or NHS make me an early 911 oil temp/pressure gauge with a 356 face.

* The PET lists the part #, no size.

** What the Brazilian replicas were based on AFAIK.

@Teammccalla posted:

The tach will be a rebuilt / reconfigured OEM 356 from PA Speedo with electronic internals.  So, basically all are OEM 356.

What you want is Part # 644 741 304 02.  The 12V electronic tach from 64-65 356C. Set up a search for eBay andCraigsList  you might get lucky  

btw: Invaluable resource for “originality” hounds:

https://www.porsche.com/usa/ac...ginalpartscatalogue/

Thank you!

The oil temp / fuel gauge I got looks nice.  I will probably replace the ring, and that’s it.  I will have PAS recalibrate, if necessary.

I hope you’re sitting down.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/15397...temis&media=COPY

I just talked to PAS.  They sell their 12V electronic 356 tach complete, without having to provide a core, for $1,600.  That’s a lot, but I think I will bite the bullet and go that direction for the tach.  

I found some 6V 356 electronic tachs for as little as $1,000 but they are going to have issues, at the very least with voltage, and then likely with calibration.  In that event, they have to go to PAS anyway.  Further, the accuracy of 1965 tachs are not as good as current ones, I hear from the 356 Registry site.  

There isn’t much to change on the speedo or combo gauge.  The combo gauge has some tweaks to make it 12v, but not much.  The speedo has no tweaks.  I am $270 in there.

For the speedo, I am looking for a solid mechanical example, with maybe some cosmetic issues.  That should keep the price down and the cosmetics will be all restored by PAS.  My budget is $350 for the core.

I never expected this to be a cheap hobby.

@dlearl476 Editing this post because I am leaning back the other direction toward the 356C electronic tach that you educated me exists.  I am a little nervous about 6V adapters, and I put a question about that on a post at the bottom of the thread.  It looks fairly foolproof on the voltage side, but I worry a little about the “RPM Signal” and whether our replica sensors put out the right signal.  Does anyone know?

@Teammccalla posted:

I never expected this to be a cheap hobby.

If that’s how you feel, why not go for broke withe the 904\Carrera triple or quad gauge?

If I wasn’t retired on a fixed income, that’s what I’d do. As it is, I’m hoping they can replace my fuel gauge with oil pressure guts.

I saw those but I don't think I'll bite.  The triple is OK, but I don't like the quad.

I love the simple elegance of the OEM 4-bulb combo gauge.  Its beauty is part of what is missing with the new VDO set, IMHO.  If the VDO set had used bulbs on the combo gauge, instead of flat colored disks, I might not have started on this "wild gauge chase."  I might still might have ended up down this road for the analog/mechanical speedo, but it wouldn't have jumped out at me like the current modern VDO combo gauge.

The “flat discs” aren’t VDO. They’re Chinese or Indian repops. As far as the looks go, PAS and No Hollywood can put any face you want on your gauges. The triple is the 53-64 look, the Quad is a 64< face. But they can put either face plate on either gauge. It’s just a silkscreen they apply to the tin face.

I do like the 3 lens in the triple, though. Currently I have the standard old school Beck-supplied Brazilian repros, so I have 4 bulbs in my combo gauge and two plus the single turn signal arrows in my tach. I really only need 4 idiot lights: oil pressure, alternator, lights and high beams. If PAS can do the oil pressure mod for me, I’m going to try and wire one of the bulbs as a fuel “reserve” light. As it is, I carry a 3 gal gas can with me and pull over and drain it when my motor starts to sputter.

On the 4-light combo version, I’d like to have the unused green bulb be for the driving lights.

I will have PAS set up my (unobtanium plated — haha) tach with a blue bulb and a red one.  I will use the blue for high beams and the red for battery/fan belt.  I’ll keep the oil pressure on the combo gauge along with driving lights on the unused green bulb.

@dlearl476 Unfortunately, the flat disk combo gauges are, in fact, VDO.  I don’t know why they did like that, but I am not in favor.

Remind me why this tach is no good?

It's:

*100 mm as is correct

*electronic

*Proper face to match 356 (albeit to 8k instead of the original 6).

*proper "conical button" pointer

*Reliable.

*$300.

==

It looks enough like an original to fool anyone who isn't a marque expert, plus its redline is closer to right for almost any engine you'd be likely to run in a VMC Speedster.

Original:

Don’t go injecting common sense into the conversation now, Ed.

btw, if that Chinese gauge “looks enough like an original to fool anyone who isn't a marque expert” to you, I have a couple of Monets I’m trying to fence sell if you’re interested.

I got one of these last fall at a flea market for $ 35. $ 1,000 for a tach that wobbles anyway (they ALL do) is rediculous !

  ReV

@edsnova posted:

Remind me why this tach is no good?

I can't. My next one will have a 914 tach with a chrome bezel, or something very similar.

But the heart wants what the heart wants. Every time, with all of us.

@dlearl476 posted:

I’m hoping they can replace my fuel gauge with oil pressure guts.

They can, and did (for me) about 15 years ago.

It also is not for the faint of heart.

Repeat after me, we drive replicas for a reason.

No Porscheophile is going to be fooled into thinking ours are the real deal for very long (a magnet would tell them ours are fiberglass or all Bondo).

There's admiration to be paid to those who put enough effort and cash into prolonging the discovery that our plastic fantastics are only "kit cars."

It's impressive what can be done, but the rabbit hole can be very deep and the reward somewhat fleeting.

My license plate is supposed to eliminate part of the discussion (FAUX-57), but most people don't read it, or get it if they do.

I like the 356 gauges.  It’s really that simple.

I was talking to another member and we seem to have the same philosophy. Within reason, I want to replicate a Porsche car. It will please me. Porsche 356 Speedsters are beautiful, headturners.

is it a Porsche?  Nope.

@Teammccalla posted:

I like the 356 gauges.  It’s really that simple.

I was talking to another member and we seem to have the same philosophy. Within reason, I want to replicate a Porsche car. It will please me. Porsche 356 Speedsters are beautiful, headturners.

is it a Porsche?  Nope.

You're good, then. Some folks approach it from what will make other people happy and are never really satisfied. Good job, and keep us up to date. Finding the sweet spot on gauges (or dashboard in general) is tough.

Cheers!

@Teammccalla posted:

I like the 356 gauges.  It’s really that simple.

I was talking to another member and we seem to have the same philosophy. Within reason, I want to replicate a Porsche car. It will please me. Porsche 356 Speedsters are beautiful, headturners.

is it a Porsche?  Nope.

Yep. Some people want to make it as close to real as possible. I’m fine with that. I veered away from that a while ago, as I see worth in maintaining my Spyder as close as I can to an Original Beck, with consideration made to make it a better car. (Cable shifter, CNC pedals, hydraulic clutch)

@Stan Galat posted:

They can, and did (for me) about 15 years ago.

It also is not for the faint of heart.

Gotta be cheaper than a triple gauge, right?  

@dlearl476 posted:

Don’t go injecting common sense into the conversation now, Ed.

btw, if that Chinese gauge “looks enough like an original to fool anyone who isn't a marque expert” to you, I have a couple of Monets I’m trying to fence sell if you’re interested.

Thought this was the gauge Carey commissioned from VDO.

@dlearl476 posted:

Gotta be cheaper than a triple gauge, right?  

Absolutely. The fuel gauge is worthless anyway.

@edsnova posted:

Thought this was the gauge Carey commissioned from VDO.

Your photo is.

I can see that it would take a bit driving down the road for the GPS to acquire satellites but the advantages of it being accurate regardless of temp, tire/wheel size, and cable drag/kinks, I see as a big advantage.  BECK's ad says there is a cable-driven hall effect generator available if you still want cable drive (I assume there is some adjustment there).

Surprised to see that 914 gauges have jumped in price.  Nice thing with them is the cable drive reads fairly accurately with the speedo, the tach is larger than the other 2 gauges so great centered, and the hand brake flasher can be replaced with an oil temp gauge.  Seems even rusted ones are $100+ per gauge!  Guess I need to dig out the box of them I have.

Re: 914 gauges, I love mine. If you're careful and read up on doing repairs (e.g. Pelican Parts), you can even keep them clean and working yourself. Replacement light sockets can be found! Not really correct for our cars, but nice.

I am excited to get my speedo and combo gauge.  I will send both in.  Trying to decide between PAS and NHS.  I think I will go with PAS, even though they are a little more, because I am in the south Bay Area, so they are local.  I can ask them then to match their fully made electronic tach to my gauges if they need any touch up.  The speedo looks pretty clean and came out of a functional car, so hopefully just cleaning, new chrome rings, sprucing, 12V conversion for the combo and recalibrate speedo for tire size.

@WOLFGANG  I am OK with the speedo reading a bit off as long as it functions when I turn the key.  I will ask PAS to try to calibrate, but if it turns out a few miles off, that wouldn’t be the end of the world.  My ‘69S always read 10 mph off because of modern tires — never was a big issue.  I just got used to it.  However, having it not work for 10 miles?  That is not OK in my book.

Early 914 gauges(70-74 or 74) with the silver button had glass lens - later black dot ones had plastic which were easily scratched but can be replaced with the glass (think Pelican has the glass).

You gonna have them reset the odo?

When I sent my 914 gauges to Hartmut I forgot to say, and they came back with miles on them. I sent them back and he set to zero at no extra charge.

@edsnova Yes, I will definitely ask PAS to set the miles.  They said they can put any number of miles.  I am debating going to zero, but I may just go with a few hundred less than real mileage.

OK, here is the next question.  I know that there are a lot of threads about 6V here and at 356 registry.  I am very tempted to go with a restored 356C electronic tach.  Cheaper and OEM.  They are 6V though.  Has anyone here used one of the 6V converters?  I hear they work very well.  Would it be placed in line before the 6V input?

Is there something else I am missing, like where the signal is picked up or something?

@Teammccalla posted:

@edsnova Yes, I will definitely ask PAS to set the miles.  They said they can put any number of miles.  I am debating going to zero, but I may just go with a few hundred less than real mileage.

OK, here is the next question.  I know that there are a lot of threads about 6V here and at 356 registry.  I am very tempted to go with a restored 356C electronic tach.  Cheaper and OEM.  They are 6V though.  Has anyone here used one of the 6V converters?  I hear they work very well.  Would it be placed in line before the 6V input?

Is there something else I am missing, like where the signal is picked up or something?

AFAIK, there are both 6V and 12V electronic tachs. The PET lists both. The part # I posted is the 12V one  

The signal is picked up off your coil. It should already be in your wiring harness.

@dlearl476 Considering I have a working tach, I have to assume that is where the signal comes from.  It takes so long to learn it all by poking around the car, and we don't exactly have manuals to study.  Usually it is VW, so I have Muir.  But then, like here, we are delving into 356.

@Teammccalla posted:

I will ask PAS to try to calibrate, but if it turns out a few miles off, that wouldn’t be the end of the world.  My ‘69S always read 10 mph off because of modern tires — never was a big issue.  I just got used to it.  However, having it not work for 10 miles?  That is not OK in my book.

Those gauges look sweet TM. Once you’re set on the tires you’ll use:

OK, in case anyone follows this thread to the logical conclusion, I can verify that the VMC equipment has the port for the Speedo cable.  I bought the longer super beetle speedo cable, speedo clip, body seals and the grease cap with a speedo hole.

Now the question is how to route the cable.  I know there are a number of threads, but the consensus seems to be to drill new holes for a straight cable path.  I'll let you know when all the stuff gets here and the gauges are ready.  From what I understand, that could be weeks or months.  Maybe a winter project.

I am still looking for input regarding 12V to 6V voltage reducers, and how well they work with tachs.  There is a part specifically made for instruments.  I haven't heard any horror stories on the 356 Registry so that's a good sign.

That's a simple voltage divider.  It's solid state and should be able to handle a few amps - More than enough for your gauges and for that money it probably has voltage regulation in it to manage the 6V output that your tachometer will love.

Thanks, @Gordon Nichols

@Teammccalla posted:

Now the question is how to route the cable.  I know there are a number of threads, but the consensus seems to be to drill new holes for a straight cable path.

That might just be a poor choice of words. Most of the speedos I’ve seen, the cable connection comes straight out of the back, which means perpendicular to the wheel. The goal is to make that 90° radius as gentle as possible.

I have no idea what’s behind a VMC dash, but on my Beck Spyder, there’s just a single layer fiberglass bulkhead between the footwell and the beam. The hole for my Speedo cable is just to the right of my steering column (Which is probably why my Speedo is on the “wrong” side) so all of the bend is in the space below my tank with the beam.  

I love the practical advice.  Thanks @dlearl476.  You are correct, I just mean as straight as I can get it within reason.  I know that a 6” radius bend is the “maximum” but I’d prefer less.  It will help that the 356 speedo I have points down toward the spot where it will go through the "firewall".

I too want it on the “wrong” side (right side) so I will look to see if I can do as you suggest and put a new hole to the right of the steering column.  I bought a couple of the VW rubber pieces (grommets?) to keep the cable secure and not bounce around in the hole.  I have heard that can cause problems.

The good news is that the Speedster is the easiest to reach under-dash I have ever seen!  You can reach EVERYTHING!  The tach is a little obscured by the steering column, but nothing like a regular car.  Even the ‘64 bus was more cramped!  I just plan to pull all three at once and make my life easy on the tach.  I need to get some of those little numbered labels so that I don’t end up confused on what goes where.  I don’t know if a loom diagram is available, and it's easier to just label and plug back in where the labels are.

Today I adjusted the clutch a little (even though it didn’t really need it) and looked around underneath.  Things are visible and easy to reach.  Everything is new and clean.  This is going to be fun.  What a great car!