Gauges and Switches

I should have known you had one of the few 45° angle speedo drives.

Where is that oriented wrt the dial face?

You know what you’re doing. Just keep the bends to a minimum and you’ll be fine.

Take a picture of the connections before you disconnect. You may even have enough slack to pull the instrument before you disconnect.

@dlearl476  I don't have it in my hands yet, but from net pictures the 60s speedometer has the cable connection pointing somewhat toward the steering column if the gauge is on the right.  It's not straight down, but it could be worse

@Michael Pickett  Thanks.  I really don't know what I'm doing most of the time but I have managed to figure out most car things over the years.  Some of the trickiest stuff though is designing in something that wasn't there before -- here, as simple as a speedo cable.  At least the wheel port is there; needs a new grease cap, but big whoop.

I moved my speedo to the right side, too. I had to extend a few wires to make it reach (old Intermeccanica).

Avoid drilling through carpet if you can because the bit will sometimes grab and pull the fibers. If you can't avoid the carpet, cut a small hole with a box cutter. I put the hole next to the steering column in about the 2PM position.

I have read that bee's wax on the bit will prevent it from snagging the carpet.

Thank you.  Not sure what I’ll do with that yet.  I guess I’ll use a knife and take it very slow for a tidy hole?

@Teammccalla posted:

Thank you.  Not sure what I’ll do with that yet.  I guess I’ll use a knife and take it very slow for a tidy hole?

The hole will be above the normal sight line and you may be able to put it behind the steering column cover (if you've got one). Just take it slow and use a razor edge rather than a knife. Box cutters are perfect.

Michael's suggestion about something slippery on the bit is also worth trying. Bees wax, Crisco, etc. Not so much that it slings around the interior, though.

Go get a can of Johnson's Floor Wax, dip the drill into it up to an inch or so, pull it out and drill through the carpet.  The drill won't pull on the carpet.  That's what I used decades ago when I was installing car stereos for a living.

If you're not comfortable with that, peel down the carpet, drill the hole behind it, then use a box cutter or something similar to cut a clean hole in the carpet.

@Teammccalla posted:

@WOLFGANG  I am OK with the speedo reading a bit off as long as it functions when I turn the key.  I will ask PAS to try to calibrate, but if it turns out a few miles off, that wouldn’t be the end of the world.  My ‘69S always read 10 mph off because of modern tires — never was a big issue.  I just got used to it.  However, having it not work for 10 miles?  That is not OK in my book.

Yeah, about that. My GPS speedo is working before I back to the end of my 100 foot long driveway. Yup, it reads your speed in REVERSE too. Weird the first time you notice it.

What GPS takes 10 minutes to start working? My car is kept in a garage, but it locates the satellites quickly once I pull out. The only time the speedo didn't work was in the Baltimore/DC tunnel, which is ten miles long(I think). And honestly, if you pay attention, you KNOW what revs your car is doing in different speeds and gears.

If you want a cable speedo, fine, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with the GPS version. Cheers.

I’m glad yours works for you in your location. You might want to edit that last paragraph to say YOUR GPS unit works fine. Mine didn’t come on for over 20 miles today, and I’ve checked with the supplier and it seems to be working normally!  It’s typical for it not to work some of the time, they say.

As I understand it, the first complaint that Greg usually gets from new owners is the GPS speedometer.  My understanding is that he’s thinking of going back to cable driven speedometers for all of his cars.

@Teammccalla posted:

I’m glad yours works for you in your location. You might want to edit that last paragraph to say YOUR GPS unit works fine. Mine didn’t come on for over 20 miles today, and I’ve checked with the supplier and it seems to be working normally!  It’s typical for it not to work some of the time, they say.

As I understand it, the first complaint that Greg usually gets from new owners is the GPS speedometer.  My understanding is that he’s thinking of going back to cable driven speedometers for all of his cars.

I recall reading somewhere that the GPS speedometer needs a constant power supply so that it connects immediately with the satellites when you start your car. It has been a long time since I installed mine but I distinctly remember reading that. But I would think Greg’s guys would know that and wouldn’t wire it any other way. It’s a very low draw of power so there’s no chance of draining the battery unless the car sits unused for weeks. It’s similar to when I would start a GPS tracking unit for hiking. Turn it on from being off and it would take a wire to acquire enough satellites for an accurate signal. Leave it turns on and it was always ready to go.

It’s really my geographic locale, guys.  I’m glad GPS is a good solution for some.  For comparison, my Garmin cyclometer takes a little time to connect.  It’s usually 2-3 minutes or 1/4 mi maybe. I have a Garmin two-way satellite text device and it takes 15 minutes to connect.  It’s just the trees and mountains around…

I have the good fortune of living under redwoods.  Some things don’t work, even though I’m 10 minutes from Silicon Valley.  It’s rural in those ways.  Cell signal is pretty darn good.  Cable internet is not reliable.  My point was only that cable driven gauges make a lot more sense for some, including me.  The fact that Greg is looking at other solutions shows that I’m not alone.

Meanwhile, I’m pleased with the deals I got on gauges.  I got an almost spotless combo gauge for the low end of the price range.  It came today and it’s gorgeous.  My speedo is on its way - a very nice ‘64 model - again at the bottom of the price range but very clean and nice.  The electronic 356 tach was expensive but thankfully already restored - perfect condition - so that will be good.  It was 2/3 of a PAS one and it’s OEM.  

I still want PAS to look at them.  They are local so I’m hoping it won’t be a long process.  All I know I need for sure is to reset the odometer on the speedo, super light clean on combo and speedo and reset the voltages for the combo.  I might opt for a new ring on the combo and speedo to match the bright one on the tach.  That’s it!  Because I want to involve PAS, it could be a few weeks; we’ll see.

Thanks, everyone, for the help so far!

I used PAS for one of my 911 gauges and was very happy with their work. Sounds like you're 90% there!

I hope so.  There is still installation and making sure it all works.

It’s off topic but I was informed that Karosserie Reutter still sells emblems from Germany.  They aren’t any more expensive than our USA sources and I guess 356 concours judges favor them.  I couldn’t care less about concours but I DO like the idea of buying from a company ostensibly related to the original.  I will try them out and report back.

Ahhhh, redwoods. I get it now, Teamccalla.

For the record, I have Speedhut gauges, got them through Greg. I think they will only sell these particular replica gauges through him. He worked with them to get the artwork the way he wanted it. The combi gauge doesn't really match, and the bezels are not 100% correctly shaped. I believe the diameters are slightly off the OE size(tach is smaller than an OE Spyder). But, they are made in the USA, very thin(plenty of behind the dash room), and have modern electronics, LED lighting, and stepper motor movements. And the gas gauge actually works accurately and doesn't bounce. The LED dimmer unit actually works nicely(unlike the vintage VW or cheesy Chinese light switches). I do like the programmable caution lights on the combi for low fuel and hi/low temperature. And the very cool 0-60, 1/4 mile, direction, altitude, time, and top speed telltale on the speedo. That's a lot of neat technology hidden in a vintage-looking gauge.

Yes, the GPS unit is hooked up to constant switched power. It does go to sleep after 4 hours of inactivity so there is no draw on your battery, however miniscule the draw is.

It's not the greatest picture, but it's all I have. The gauge surround is aluminum and painted in hammertone silver, just like the original Spyders. The three LEDs on the outside of the tach are sequential rev lights. One, one and two, and all three light up at 5900, 6100, and 6300 respectively. If I miss that the revs cut at 6500. This was easy(kind of) to program in with the Speeduino ECU and Tunerstudio.

That’s interesting @DannyP. I thought you were talking about the VDO ones. I can’t see clearly, but that’s a different looking combo gauge than I think I’ve seen. It’s a great looking cockpit.

What engine do you have that you rev that high?  The Pat Downs 2332 doesn’t seem to really need high revs and it seems to lose it’s efficient revs above about 4500. It has so much low end torque that shifting at or around 4000 doesn’t penalize me on the next gear. It pulls near the same from about 2700 up. Pat in the interview with Greg said the redline is 5500 to 5800 but it seems lower for practical purposes. I’m used to high revving cars with the ‘69S and the RSA so this is new for me. On my Porsche I *never* drive below 3000 RPM and it pulls all the way to redline without flattening out.  So unlike those cars, with the VMC, I don’t think I’ll be hitting redline all the time.

At any rate, I like your shift indicators.

I really admire the VMC car. I can pick on this or that but Greg is putting out a great car!  And most of all, it’s soooooo much fun to drive.

@Teammccalla posted:

That’s interesting @DannyP. I thought you were talking about the VDO ones. I can’t see clearly, but that’s a different looking combo gauge than I think I’ve seen. It’s a great looking cockpit.

What engine do you have that you rev that high?  The Pat Downs 2332 doesn’t seem to really need high revs and it seems to lose it’s efficient revs above about 4500. It has so much low end torque that shifting at or around 4000 doesn’t penalize me on the next gear. It pulls near the same from about 2200 up. Pat in the interview with Greg said the redline is 5500 to 5800 but it seems lower for practical purposes. I’m used to high revving cars with the ‘69S and the RSA so this is new for me. On my Porsche I *never* drive below 3000 RPM and it pulls all the way to redline without flattening out.  So unlike those cars, with the VMC, I don’t think I’ll be hitting redline all the time.

At any rate, I like your shift indicators.

I really admire the VMC car. I can pick on this or that but Greg is putting out a great car!  And most of all, it’s soooooo much fun to drive.

Did you get a spec sheet on what parts are in that 2332?  Im guessing a small cam to go with the single barrel carburetors. Probably off the shelf Panchito’s also.

Attached is what Greg and team provided about specs.

@Teammccalla posted:

Attached is what Greg and team provided about specs.

Thanks.  Those motors are built to be simple and reliable. If they had a bigger cam, some ported heads and dual throat carburetors. they could easily make 175 hp, but would take a little more maintenance.

.

Tried to pull more detail out of Danny's gauge photo:

This should help, I went on a deep dive of my old hard drive.

@Teammccalla I have a Jake Raby type1 of 2165cc. I put 35k on it, then did a top end: new pistons and cylinders, sent the heads out to Headflow Masters(the guy who built them). I have added .1 compression(flycut head clean-up) to 10.2:1, added an Autocraft 2 stage dry sump pump, and EFI with 48mmx4 throttle bodies. It LOVES to rev. It has 44 x37 valves, port matched manifolds, Manton chromoly pushrods, and Pauter 1.5:1 roller-rockers. I think the 1 5/8" exhaust holds it back just a bit. It weeps a bit of oil from the oil cooler bypass(I'll fix that when I swap the transmission) but other than that a VERY reliable and strong runner. It has a 911 fan and aftermarket glass shroud.

The crank pulley is now JayCee with a thedubshop trigger wheel on the back. Also no more oil filler(now a vent) and the CB thinline sump is gone. But it looks like that mostly(although you never see it, the fan faces the firewall).

@Teammccalla and others:

The GPS speedos can be run off an OEM speed sensor (Subaru) or a cable driven add-on speed sensor (aircooled) and were designed to do so.  There are several countries where GPS speedometers are not allowed, so this was a consideration from the start of development.

Likewise, and as mentioned above, VDO recommends switched power wiring for the GPS unit, however we wire them constant power so there is no "downtime" on first start-up.  

According to VDO (and a few other brands) if the GPS antenna loses signal it must be sitting still in order to regain signal and if you start moving before it has gained signal it can delay signal acquisition significantly, or prevent it all together.

@Michael Pickett posted:

I moved my speedo to the right side, too. I had to extend a few wires to make it reach (old Intermeccanica).

Avoid drilling through carpet if you can because the bit will sometimes grab and pull the fibers. If you can't avoid the carpet, cut a small hole with a box cutter. I put the hole next to the steering column in about the 2PM position.

we have a broken screwdriver that we heat with a torch and burn a small hole before we drill.  Makes a quick and easy hole, plus seals the ends to tether to prevent future fraying.  just don't get it TOO hot or it'll flame up.  We usually get it glowing red and then it cool a minute before making holes

@chines1 posted:

we have a broken screwdriver that we heat with a torch and burn a small hole before we drill.  Makes a quick and easy hole, plus seals the ends to tether to prevent future fraying.  just don't get it TOO hot or it'll flame up.  We usually get it glowing red and then it cool a minute before making holes

That’s exactly what I do too.

@DannyP Thank you for those details.  I would never know what to choose.  How did you make the decisions on each of those aspects?  Any idea what kind of HP it makes, or maybe guess by a change in the seat of the pants feel?

I guess I would choose a builder who I trust and just let them make suggestions.  However, having careful reports like yours allows me to see a combo that worked for someone.  I love how your engine looks more like a 911.  

I dream of putting a 2.0S or 2.2S with MFI in mine.  It doesn’t really make sense to have 170 or 190 HP though, does it?  Maybe if I upgraded suspension and brakes too.  The sound of the 2.0 MFI was intoxicating though.  It’s hard to find someone who can really dial in MFI, but I found it reliable and didn’t require tinkering once dialed in.

In the end, I think I will stay with a 4-banger because “it’s right” for the car.  The idea of a 356 engine is tempting, although expensive as h@ll.  It should probably be a different thread asking how to make something look, feel and (especially) sound like a 356 while still having 150 HP.

Red shroud dreaming…..

@chines1. That is very helpful.  I’d have to look into how a mechanical to GPS converter works.  That sounds like it could have been a solution for my situation.  

Standing still to achieve GPS helps, I agree, but in the forests and canyons, sometimes it is just impossible.  As I say, even the bike GPS devices and two-way text satellite communicators have a lot of trouble up here.  They work better once they lock on, but acquiring signal is sometimes difficult.  

I am half way to OEM gauges now, so I expect it will provide a solution.  There are other OEM gremlins such as bouncing needles and calibration to wrestle with, but I plan to be careful with routing and use PAS for calibration.  The starting point for all of this was the flat lens warning lights in the combo gauge, and then also the GPS acquisition issue.  I have a feeling with *both* of these issues bugging me I would ended up at OEM anyway.  The overall look of the OEM gauges is hard to beat too IMHO, although I’m sure there are ways to improve every design.  I liked the overall look of the VDO speedo and tach, but I guess I prefer the analog look of the OEM.  It’s all preference I guess as long as we eventually work out the bugs of whatever solution we choose!

@Stan Galat and @chines1. Regarding putting a hole in the carpet, that technique sounds perfect.  However, I have wool carpet.  That won’t work for wool, will it?

@Teammccalla posted:

That won’t work for wool, will it?

Yep. It doesn’t work as well as it does with plastic carpet, but I’ve done it with German square weave.

@Teammccalla posted:

@DannyP Thank you for those details.  I would never know what to choose.  How did you make the decisions on each of those aspects?  Any idea what kind of HP it makes, or maybe guess by a change in the seat of the pants feel?

I guess I would choose a builder who I trust and just let them make suggestions.  However, having careful reports like yours allows me to see a combo that worked for someone.  I love how your engine looks more like a 911.  

I dream of putting a 2.0S or 2.2S with MFI in mine.  It doesn’t really make sense to have 170 or 190 HP though, does it?  Maybe if I upgraded suspension and brakes too.  The sound of the 2.0 MFI was intoxicating though.  It’s hard to find someone who can really dial in MFI, but I found it reliable and didn’t require tinkering once dialed in.

In the end, I think I will stay with a 4-banger because “it’s right” for the car.  The idea of a 356 engine is tempting, although expensive as h@ll.  It should probably be a different thread asking how to make something look, feel and (especially) sound like a 356 while still having 150 HP.

Red shroud dreaming…..

I had Pat Downs custom build me a 2110cc air-cooled motor for my Speedster. I powder coated the tins and added parts to it to replicate a Porsche 356 Super 90 motor. I used an original 356 oil filter canister and made that into an oil breather system since the motor was over 2.0L and near 150HP. I also made sure I bought a black coil and removed the original manufacturer's sticker and applied a reproduction sticker to it. I also applied reproduction stickers in all of the original locations as on an original 356. If I didn't use heater boxes I would have bought a shroud without the holes and made it look a little more authenticate.

Here's a photo of my engine and the engine I was trying to replicate:

My engine.

Engine I was replicating.

@Teammccalla wrote- "The idea of a 356 engine is tempting, although expensive as h@ll."

Since you're driving a replica (and very few people would be able to tell the difference anyway), not really worth it in most people's opinions.  It'll be expensive (as you've already mentioned) and not a lot of power for your money- 90 -100 hp is about the practical limit (without dumping a small boatload of cash into it).  My opinion- save the 356 or 912 engine for someone with a car with the appropriate vin #, build a 2 liter-ish (2054, 2110, 2180, 2276 or???- _{think big evil laugh here!}) Type 1 and have way more fun with Carrera (or more!) power that comes in 1,000 rpm sooner, is easier to drive, has a ton of bottom end/lower midrange and is just that much more reliable to make YOUR Speedster that much more fun!

If you really want to make it look MORE period correct (than an old VW engine already is)- dress it up like Robert and a couple of others have done.  Just remember- you're not fooling anybody...

Fooling the fools doesn’t bother me.  I feel bad when Porsche people are fooled though.  

They just want to believe so bad…. I am reluctant to tell them there is no Santa Claus.  They see it and it takes them back to memories of theirs.  They tell me stories.  I don’t tell them the truth because they don’t want to know.  If they ask, I’ll tell them.

I felt so bad when there was this one fellow who walked around and around looking. He was checking its condition. He was looking at every one of the regular places that rust might be.  He spent a lot of time looking at the headlights, and really seem to appreciate no rust.

Kids and young adults are the best.  They don’t know or care if it’s “real.”  They just love it because it’s magnificent just as it is.  They don’t even know what it is; it’s just “OMG look at that car!!”

My Porsche buddies on island don't seem to mind a bit that it's a replica. I get invited on rides up to the crater anyway (although I never go - my hoonin' days are in my rear view mirror). Maybe that's why they don't mind inviting me :-)

You’ve got to get to the point that when you hear disparaging comments on your car to realize it will never stop …

you could ask them if they  like it … would they buy one?   Or what do you have as a toy?  

But who cares really if they mention it is not a real Porsche, just respond that it is a real car just as much as a corvette… or other plastic fantasies.

@ALB that is great advice.

I think I would rather spend the money on an MFI engine if I were going to spend that kind of dough.  I would want it to be on the smaller side so that it’s lighter and I don’t want a whole bunch of power.  Along with the 2.0S engine would go a 901 transmission.  Favorite transmission ever!  The VW is growing on me though…

Your idea of dressing up the VW engine as a 356 has appeal. Might be something interesting to do when I run out of other projects and have too much money….  Haha.

Your not in the majority I think,  loving the 901 . 915 seems to be the favourite as it handles more power and the shift pattern is more standard.

I've got no experience with the 901, but the 915 I had handled over 400hp without a hiccup.

It obviously isn't as nice as the G50 Marianne had in her 993, but adding that into the equation would require some serious dough.

I like the 901 as well, shift pattern is totally fine for me. It's like a 4 speed with a granny gear you only use to start out.

The 901 shifts better than the 915 could ever want to. Yes, 1st gear is weak, so no drag race starts. The 915 is notchy and difficult, not my favorite transmission. I've driven at least a dozen different cars with it, so it's not just one bad apple.

@Teammccalla my engine had 172 hp and 147 pounds of torque when I got it from Jake. He wanted to know how I drive, what gearing, and what car it was going into. He picked all the specs including displacement. I couldn't be happier.

Since I dry-sumped it, bumped the compression a touch, and installed huge throttle bodies and EFI, I'd say 180 hp minimum. CB says you gain 9hp from the oil system but I've no idea how they reference that. Probably 190 though is what it feels like, but I really don't know for sure. It certainly has more torque, and wants to pull beyond 6500 now as the intake isn't choked. So, more than 180.

It's really fun to drive it like I stole it, AKA hoon.

I have the dyno sheet, from 2002.

You have a point Danny, and also if the synchros hold and you can find 2nd from first    BTW the G50 is a monster tranny I have yet to see it in a 356 Reproduction.

@Teammccalla posted:

@Stan Galat and @chines1. Regarding putting a hole in the carpet, that technique sounds perfect.  However, I have wool carpet.  That won’t work for wool, will it?

Yes works fine for genuine Porsche  wool, that's all we use.

@Teammccalla cable driven speed sensor available from EMPI, RJES and several others.  It runs off a VW speedo cable, has an inline output for speedo cable (for those who need a speed signal for an ECU but also need cable for speedo), or you can just use the electronic output for an electronic speedo. VDO has calibration specifications or you can just program your PPM to match the sender output.

re: 901 vs. 915 (these are the 2 boxes we use in the 904GTS and what Randy and I use in our 914s so I have lots of opinions here)

A properly set-up 901, in terms of shifting, trumps a 915 any day.  Yes, the 915 is stronger, and we've seen some shifting improvement in 915's with an internal shift gate and modified plastic shifter insert, but 2nd gear is inherently spongy and the whole box has a lot more "notch" to it that a 901.  The 901 shift pattern can be difficult for some, but I found that if you just think of 1st/2nd/3rd all on the same shift gate and let the lockout spring do its job, shifting is super easy...  We ran a 901 against a 993 3.6L amnd later a 3.8L RSR (350WHP) on the track for 7-8 years and hundreds of hours without issue.  As @DannyP said, 1st is weak so don't try to launch in it, but we considered 1st to be a pit gear and 2nd-5th was all that was used elsewhere.  Randy's (Beck) street 914 currently has a 964 3.6L against a 901 and my 914 has a 2.5L Suby against a 901.  Never any issue...