Gene Berg Oil Pump Info from you engine techies

Hey all!

OK, I've got my engine case drilled and tapped for my full flow fitting and was just about to install the Gene Berg oil pump, when I found that the pump case looks like it has a groove for an O-ring, around the outside circumference of the case, at the rear nearest the cam gear.

The pump was also supplied with a big, thin O-ring that looks like it should fit that groove, but when I press it into the groove all around, it is slightly too big and leaves a loop, where the ends meet, of 1/2" or so. It's also made of something slightly sticky.(?)

The Melling pump I pulled out did not have an O-ring on it, nor have any pumps I've dealt with in the past (maybe I've just lived a sheltered life........ ;>(

It's a little too late to get the Berg guys on the phone (damn time zones!), so this may have to wait til tomorrow, but does anyone have experience with this? Is this pump case supposed to have an O-ring around it? If so, does this sound like the correct ring? Should I press it in, then cut it off to make the ends meet flush or slightly overlapped? I'll be applying a thin coat of grease to the pump body when I assemble it to the case, but I wonder if the (now sticky) O-ring will be lubed properly to slide in and seal correctly (if that's what it's there for).

If you can help me tonight, then I'll have something useful to do and won't have to sit here and watch the Democratic National Convention with my two Jack Russels. If not, I'll get the Berg boys on the horn tomorrow to see what's what.

Help me, Please!!!!!!

Thanks, GN

Well, I didn't hear anything, had to watch the convention stuff (OK, so I got side-tracked into "A fist full of dollars" with Clint Eastwood - the Jack Russels got restless during Ted Kennedy's speech) and it's getting late so I'll call the Berg'ermeisters in the morning and find out about this O-ringy thingy.

The case drilling and tapping went a lot easier than I expected, although drilling and tapping a BIG 3/8 Pipe thread into a VW case is still a big deal and not for the faint of heart. It would be infinitely easier to do if it were a naked case on a bench somewhere, and I highly recommend having a new case drilled and tapped for full flow, even if you plug the hole and run a normal pump and never use the outside full flow feature - it's there just in case you need it someday (and you WILL, too!)

G'night all...........gn

Good night Gord! I'm sorry I couldn't help you but I'm telling you, "A Fistful of Dollars" (or any Clint flick, for that matter)is definitely better than sitting through the Democratic Convention so I guess you spent your time wisely. Anyhow, I hope you get the clarification you need from the Bergs tomorrow. Cheers!

Usually any movie is better than any political convention.

Good luck with your project, Gord.

Just wondering why you didn't go with a pump that was setup for full flowing instead of drilling the case?

J-P

I've seen those pumps but I've heard they're not 100% full flow; I'm still confused.

OK, to answer your question and confusion all in one:

FULL FLOW OIL PUMPS 101

The pumps that have BOTH inlet and outlet on the cover, OR a new cover that has a filter attachment, are NOT "full flow".

Think about it......if you're not changing the pump body, there is still an inlet and outlet working at the back of the pump. Oil under pressure doesn't know any better, so it'll flow through any opening that exists and take the path of least resistance. If you just add a cover with an inlet and outlet in it, some of the oil will go through those openings in the cover, and some of it will go through the original openings at the rear of the pump. Not exactly "full flow", is it?

To make matters worse, if you add an outletted cover so you can add an external oil filter, and the filter does it's job and traps bad stuff, as it does so, the resistance going TO the filter increases, while the pressure for the oil to go out the original outlet passage remains the same but is now less resistant, relative to the filter, so the filter becomes less effective as it clogs up. Remember, oil follows the path of least resistance. Sounds even worse now, doesn't it?

What I'm using is an oil pump with the outlet in the pump body tapped and blocked with a threaded-in, metal hole plug. The new cover has an outlet only, for oil to get out of the pump, which can then be routed to a filter and then back to the engine. Doing this insures that ALL of the oil coming from the pump goes out the cover to the outside plumbing (actually, a little oil gets bled off back to the pump input if the pressure rises over 125 PSI - that's covered in "Full-Flow Pumps 102 and not detailed here).

Now, once you get the oil out of the cover, you have to get it back to the oil gallery in the engine where it was supposed to go in the first place. Some brilliant VW engine designer (and the more I work on these things the more I am impressed) thought about how to effectively machine the case for this gallery, AND he also must have pondered eventually adding an external filter arrangement, because the high pressure oil gallery surfaces in a plugged, machined boss (collar) about 3 inches from the oil pump at about 10 o'clock (see the picture below). It's relatively easy to drill it out and tap it for a fitting, especially if the case is open and in a shop - a bit more involved if it's still assembled and in the car. BTW: CB Performance gets $15 USD for drilling the case for full-flow - I just spent about $100 USD just for drills, a reamer and tap, not to mention a few other tools needed (but, you can NEVER have anough tools!!) If you're ever buying a new engine, make sure you get it set up for full-flow FIRST!

So that's it......in order to truly have "full-flow" characteristics, you need to do three, maybe four, things:
1. Block the oil pump's outlet
2. Add a cover with a fitting on the oil outlet side
3. Drill and tap the oil gallery boss for a return fitting
4. (optional) add a pressure-regulating cover to limit pressure in the external plumbing.

Hope this clears things up...........gn (still under the car but looking up)

BTW: When I called the folks at Berg (got Tim, in the shop - nice, knowlegeble guy) about that too-large, sticky O-ring for the back of the pump, the answer was "gee - it shouldn't be THAT big. Better let me send you a new one!"

So I guess I'll spend a day or two re-routing my rear electrical harness away from the mufflers, getting the hoses spec'd and made for the external filter and cooler (Tim also made sure I was adding the cooler in-line BEFORE the filter, which I am) and a few other odd-jobs while waiting for the O-ring to arrive.

Always nice to have too many projects!

Gordon,

The "Full Flow" pump I used when adding my oil cooler is the Maxi Pump 3 from (leave as is), (leave as is). This is a complete pump not just the cover. You are absolutely correct that just replacing the cover will not work. The (leave as is), (leave as is) pump is made in such a way that the oil must flow out the outlet. I know this pump is full flow because after installing everything with the ins and outs accidentally reversed and I blew out my oil filter along with a couple quarts of oil on the floor. If the oil was allowed to take the path of least resistance it would not have blown the filter off and I would still be wondering why my engine runs hot.

Check it out: www.cbperformance.com/catalog.asp?ProductID=197

I also found myself watching something other than the Democratic National Snoozefest.

Jerome

The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly. If there is a better movie out there I haven't watched it (and I've watched a lot of movies). My second favorite movie is Jeremiah Johnson (1972), staring Robert Redford. Two oldies but goodies.
Ron

When I first saw Jeremiah Johnson in theaters decades ago, I got about half way through and wondered how anybody could endure as much hardship and fear/anxiety as he had to go through. Of course, "Angela's Ashes" was right down there, too.

I think the Jacks and I will be watching "African Queen" tonight - need a Bogart/Hepburn fix.

The Outlaw Josey Wales

"You gonna pull those pistols or whistle Dixie?"

GN:

"I think the Jacks and I will be watching "African Queen" tonight - need a Bogart/Hepburn fix."

Then do so, Mr. Allnut. (sp?)

The Berg item is a Schadek pump, and yes, the large o-ring goes in the outside pump body groove to seal the pump body from the case interior.

To properly full-flow a VW case the oil outlet holes in both the pump and CASE should be plugged (requires disassembly of the engine).

George: You're right about Berg's pump - it is, indeed, a Shadek, and I believe that I got an O-ring that someone had been doing finger-exercises with - it was about 1/4" in diameter too big - not cool.

They're sending along another one, and I'm getting the rest of the system completed in the meantime.

I didn't pull or disassemble the engine to do the return fitting, but simply ran pressurized air into the oil pressure sender location while I was drilling/tapping, and everything came out fine. A little ballsey, but it's worked for me in the past so what the heck (and Berg recommends this trick, too).

I don't understand your last line, though: "....the outlet holes on both the pump and CASE should be plugged". I understand plugging the outlet of the pump, but shouldn't you be adding a FITTING to the case for the oil return line? (That's what I did.....)

Gord, I was told that to do the procedure with the engine in the car, Berg recommended cranking over the engine (without starting it of course) while drilling the case. That way, oil pressure would keep any particles from getting in the block. Is that accurate also?

Ricardo: the information you heard was false!

If you're drilling/tapping for full-flow with the engine in the car, ABSOLUTELY DO NOT TURN THE ENGINE OVER WHILE YOU DRILL OR TAP THE ENGINE CASE !!!! That's NOT the way to do this!

The Berg full flow kit comes with detailed, explicit instructions for doing this work, which involves removing the oil pump, carefully stuffing a clean rag in the pump hole, applying a continuous 30 PSI of air pressure to the oil sender hole, then relieving (removing engine case metal) the area that the return fitting will be threaded into and then progressively drilling, reaming and tapping the case at the oil gallery boss.

The compressed air blows all of the metal chips from drilling or tapping right out the hole being worked on and NOT into the engine. There are a few chips that find their way through the passage to the pump hole, but the rag in there keeps them from contaminating the engine.

Of course, the best thing would be to work on a dis-assembled case on a bench, but I chose this option instead.

BTW: It took me over an hour and a half to drill, then ream, then tap that single hole, and I DID know what I was doing. It would simply not be practical to be turning your engine over on a starter for that long to finish this job.

Follow my thread on "Oil Cooler and Filter Project" in this section and I'll be detailing what I did as I get time to document it. It's similar to Steve O'Brien's cooler setup, but with a different pump and filter arrangement.

gn

Gordon, the stock pump setup has an intake hole (to the pickup tube) and an outlet hole that matches the stock oilo system feed hole in the case.

If the stock system output feed hole in the case is not plugged when you convert to full flow then some of the pressurized oil may bleed back into the pump cavity through it, which will reduce oil pressure in the rest of the system.

Blocking the pump outlet and using a new full-flow outlet cover is only part of the picture, but many people install full-flow systems this way with the engine together; in this case a high output pump is advisable to compensate for any pressure loss due to the open case outlet hole.

The amount of pressure loss will depend on how tight the fit of pump body to case is, and of course the Berg/Schadek O-ring will help seal the pump body off from the case cavity.

Oh....OK, Now I understand.
I thought of that possibility, of oil pressure "blow-by" from pressurized oil pushing back through the old outlet passage past the pump body, but didn't think it would be appreciable AND it's a real PITA to seal up that passage with the engine in the car. Not impossible, but it would best be done with a sized aluminum plug and a nifty tool to insert it into the passage.
The passage to plug is right out front, but on an angle in a half-round opening so you would need either GREAT patience or a tool made to press it into the opening. Of course, if the engine case were split, then it's simple and can be plugged with a suitable punch. I think it's easier, at this point, to simply go with a big, 30mm pump........(but I'm starting to think of ways to do this before I put the pump in!!!!)

Thanks, gn

Hey Gordon, would a plug like this work? We use them all the time to block lines in molds.

216.91.69.172/DCatalog/pages/L15_frame.htm

Jerome

Jerome:

WOW! That would be perfect! Of course, I got your post right AFTER I had assembled the oil pump to the case!!

I've bookmarked that page anyway, as I'm sure I'll have need for it later on. Those plugs are really neat! It's too bad us home mechanics don't have access to more of this info.......might make life a lot easier.

gn

Gordon I'm hoping that the different filter arrangement is a remote filter instead of the style on my car??? That is the one regret I have as the filter had to be smaller after I put in the sandwich plate and the header is still close enough to be a pain when I change the filter.

Steve:

It's a full flow filter, separated from the engine by about a foot (ok, maybe less). It sits just behind and slightly outside of the Drivers side valve cover, and slightly in front of my left quiet pack muffler. I attached it to the CMC body frame with an aluminum angle bracket and will be running stainless braided hoses from the oil pump to the cooler to the filter to the engine case fitting. Sounds easy when I read that last line, but it's been a couple of weeks coming!

I took pictures of the cooler and filter placement today before the hoses go on, and should be able to post them tomorrow, along with phase 2 of my write-up. Waiting for hose terminations to arrive (I special ordered some 90 degree, AN-to-male-NPT fittings - hope to have hoses done Wednesday or Thursday.