Just picked up a H4 lamp conversion kit and was looking forward to the install when Kirt at VS burst my bubble. Kirt has concerns regarding heat.
Is heat or has heat been a problem brothers and sisters ??????
Thanks in advance,
Gary
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Just picked up a H4 lamp conversion kit and was looking forward to the install when Kirt at VS burst my bubble. Kirt has concerns regarding heat.
Is heat or has heat been a problem brothers and sisters ??????
Thanks in advance,
Gary
Is heat or has heat been a problem brothers and sisters ??????
Thanks in advance,
Gary
I'll recommend replacing ALL related headlight wiring from the fuse box, switch, high beam switch with a heavier gauge wire.
Also replace the headlight relay with a heavier rated one and a in line fuse.
Also replace the headlight relay with a heavier rated one and a in line fuse.
Hey Mike, I see we shop in the same places.
Mike is FERN a VS ? Is your existing wiring and relay is ok ??
Gary
Mike is FERN a VS ? Is your existing wiring and relay is ok ??
Gary
Paid $44.00 for my lights. Original wiring. The wires and fuses are the same that came with the car. To the best of my knowledge it's one of the first CMC's. As for the relay, well I have never used it since the HI/LO switch does not work in fact it's not there. But the fuses and wires are all AOK. Not sure if they are bigger wires than Vintage.
Check out my pics at www.mikeandjosee.com
I will be posting FERN the build soon. As soon as I find my picture CD from 2003. Damn it, I can't find it.
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Ok, let's clarify, here.
IMHO, the existing VS wiring is OK for H4 bulbs up to about 65 watts (they are rated both on the package and on the bulb). However, you'll get more brilliance from the bulbs (lights) and they will be far safer if you replace all of the wiring associated with the headlights with (a.) shorter wire runs direct to a power relay connected through a fuse to the battery and (b.) larger gauge wires (like 10 or 12 gauge) from the relay to the bulbs. All of this was covered in a write up provided on the forum sometime mid-last-summer - do a search on headlights (or wicked bright headlights, I believe) and see what's there. There are a couple of headlight conversions to H4's available out there with new wiring and relays included (try Painless Wiring).
If you run higher wattage bulbs, like 75 or 85 watt or higher, then the existing VS wiring will begin to heat up and could begin to melt the wire insulation and could possibly cause a short (this is definitely NOT GOOD) with the potential for a fire (REALLY not good in a fiberglass car). Kirk is just trying to protect his customers from doing something stupid, so listen to him.
If you want brighter headlights, then don't just toss in higher wattage halogen bulbs. The support for those bulbs (wiring, power feed and bulb cooling) must be improved too.
Gordon
(Dr. Sparks)
IMHO, the existing VS wiring is OK for H4 bulbs up to about 65 watts (they are rated both on the package and on the bulb). However, you'll get more brilliance from the bulbs (lights) and they will be far safer if you replace all of the wiring associated with the headlights with (a.) shorter wire runs direct to a power relay connected through a fuse to the battery and (b.) larger gauge wires (like 10 or 12 gauge) from the relay to the bulbs. All of this was covered in a write up provided on the forum sometime mid-last-summer - do a search on headlights (or wicked bright headlights, I believe) and see what's there. There are a couple of headlight conversions to H4's available out there with new wiring and relays included (try Painless Wiring).
If you run higher wattage bulbs, like 75 or 85 watt or higher, then the existing VS wiring will begin to heat up and could begin to melt the wire insulation and could possibly cause a short (this is definitely NOT GOOD) with the potential for a fire (REALLY not good in a fiberglass car). Kirk is just trying to protect his customers from doing something stupid, so listen to him.
If you want brighter headlights, then don't just toss in higher wattage halogen bulbs. The support for those bulbs (wiring, power feed and bulb cooling) must be improved too.
Gordon
(Dr. Sparks)
That says it all TC.
I am so glad you found out before something bad happend.
I am so glad you found out before something bad happend.
Yep better safe than sorry. Check them out.
I was going to post that I've been running H4's without any trouble at all, until I read Gordon's post and checked the car, just in case.
He's right (of course), my plugs/pig tails looked like they were made of melted brown wax after just a year. And they were the "quality" replacement ones from Walmarts :) ! or did I get 'em at the "Car Corral of Savings
He's right (of course), my plugs/pig tails looked like they were made of melted brown wax after just a year. And they were the "quality" replacement ones from Walmarts :) ! or did I get 'em at the "Car Corral of Savings
Good idea, I run with my lights on whenever I.m on the road, the morevisible the better. I have H4 headlights too, will check em out this afternoon.
Bruce
Bruce
Dr. Sparks, again.......
If you have a CMC/Street Beasts or VS body, then the headlight plug you need is a low profile model with the leads (wires) exiting to the side. If you get the "normal" NAPA or Autozone/Advanced version, it is about 3/8" longer and has the leads exiting right out the rear of the plug. This will not work in those body styles (and maybe Beck and IM as well) because the headlight bucket is not deep enough and the plug will hit the back of the bucket (because the H4 conversions are just a scosh deeper than a sealed beam headlight).
You need to find a Bosch or Hella, side lead, low profile plug for a Mercedes, VW (Jetta, Golf, etc.) Volvo, or something like that, either at a junk yard or auto parts store. If you can't find one, I can give you some part numbers next week (catalogs are all up North).
Alternatively, you can re-use the plug you have, if it is already a low-profile, side exit version (as I've found in the VS's I've worked on) by removing a lead (there is a tab holding it in - use a small screw-driver bit to pry the tab in and the 3/8" connector should come right out) and take it to your auto parts store and ask them for 8 more connectors just like that one (without the wire attached). Also buy three spools of 10 or 12 gauge wire - Brown, Green and White (or whatever colors you already have on your plug) and then re-wire your circuit, preferably to a power relay going through a fuse to the battery, with the new, heavier wire by crimping those new connectors on and re-assembling the headlight connector. See my write-up from last Summer for more detail.
That should eliminate your headlight heat problems and dim lights for good.
BTW: I would NOT recommend using anything higher than 85 Watt bulbs in Speedster replica's unless you know what you're doing and make additional mods to vent heat from the bulbs (they get pretty hot). You can make up the difference with a good pair of driving/fog lights (like Hella 450's or equivalent or some smaller, projector versions, like PIAA's) and even shine them through the horn grills as Mike Cochrane does.
Dr. Sparks
If you have a CMC/Street Beasts or VS body, then the headlight plug you need is a low profile model with the leads (wires) exiting to the side. If you get the "normal" NAPA or Autozone/Advanced version, it is about 3/8" longer and has the leads exiting right out the rear of the plug. This will not work in those body styles (and maybe Beck and IM as well) because the headlight bucket is not deep enough and the plug will hit the back of the bucket (because the H4 conversions are just a scosh deeper than a sealed beam headlight).
You need to find a Bosch or Hella, side lead, low profile plug for a Mercedes, VW (Jetta, Golf, etc.) Volvo, or something like that, either at a junk yard or auto parts store. If you can't find one, I can give you some part numbers next week (catalogs are all up North).
Alternatively, you can re-use the plug you have, if it is already a low-profile, side exit version (as I've found in the VS's I've worked on) by removing a lead (there is a tab holding it in - use a small screw-driver bit to pry the tab in and the 3/8" connector should come right out) and take it to your auto parts store and ask them for 8 more connectors just like that one (without the wire attached). Also buy three spools of 10 or 12 gauge wire - Brown, Green and White (or whatever colors you already have on your plug) and then re-wire your circuit, preferably to a power relay going through a fuse to the battery, with the new, heavier wire by crimping those new connectors on and re-assembling the headlight connector. See my write-up from last Summer for more detail.
That should eliminate your headlight heat problems and dim lights for good.
BTW: I would NOT recommend using anything higher than 85 Watt bulbs in Speedster replica's unless you know what you're doing and make additional mods to vent heat from the bulbs (they get pretty hot). You can make up the difference with a good pair of driving/fog lights (like Hella 450's or equivalent or some smaller, projector versions, like PIAA's) and even shine them through the horn grills as Mike Cochrane does.
Dr. Sparks
Dale Fieber has done a really nice job of rewiring and adding relays. If we are lucky he will post some pics and some details of his conversion.
For those who've not yet found the previous discussion (or have trouble wading through all the posts under "wicked bright headlights"), this is the web site I send people to for a detailed walk-through of converting from sealed beams to higher-powered H4's:
www.humanspeakers.com/audi/headlight-simple.htm
Good luck!
Dr. Sparks
www.humanspeakers.com/audi/headlight-simple.htm
Good luck!
Dr. Sparks
I had gathered relays and plugs to do my headlights a while back. Still on the to do list. I bought these lamp plugs at Pep Boyzz(part#46-9993). The wire seems to be 14 gauge and the wires exit from the bottom. The plug in the picture does have three leads on it. It's hard to see the white lead against the white backdrop.Claims to withstand temps over 482
www.3aracing.com/showroom/product_info.php?cPath=21_37_81&products_id=233&osCsid=0d9bfac1502d4b87c9bde32e8ce4999a
BD
www.3aracing.com/showroom/product_info.php?cPath=21_37_81&products_id=233&osCsid=0d9bfac1502d4b87c9bde32e8ce4999a
BD
Hey, great info as usual.
Have the relays wire ect....but did not consider new plugs. I think my biggest concern was heat build up in the bucket. I'll make sure to keep the wattage down on the lamps or install a smoke detector.
The movie UP IN SMOKE had a speedster in it ???????? :-)
Gary
P.S. what is the flash point of fiber glass ?
Have the relays wire ect....but did not consider new plugs. I think my biggest concern was heat build up in the bucket. I'll make sure to keep the wattage down on the lamps or install a smoke detector.
The movie UP IN SMOKE had a speedster in it ???????? :-)
Gary
P.S. what is the flash point of fiber glass ?
What is the flash point of fiber glass? ......
Just after you start to have a concern over that funny smell!
Just after you start to have a concern over that funny smell!
Good point, Alan!
Fiberglass doesn't burn - it's glass, after all, so the "melt point" is way up there over 1,200 degrees.
The resin holding it all together, on the other hand, ignites at a much lower temp - I've heard of a lot of resins that'll ignite around 500 degrees or less. It all depends on which one you use. When it does ignite, it'll spread pretty quickly, too.
It just makes more sense to keep the heat down in the first place. If the rear of the headlight bucket gets really hot after it's been sitting still with the high beams on for five minutes, you've got a BIG problem!
Just keep the wattage down at 65 watts or under and you'll be fine.
Bill D.: If you keep the 14 gauge wires from the plug short, like under 6 inches, you should be OK. It's MUCHO better, though, to just pop the fast-on tabs out of the socket and replace them with like tabs with 10 or 12 gauge wires on them - then you'll not have any additional resistence along the circuit. They're easy to replace, and if you want a truly professional job of crimping the new ones on, get one of those ratcheting crimpers made for fast-on tab connectors - they're usually around $20 at truck fleet maintanence suppliers or the like and handle red (18-22g), blue (12-16g) and yellow (10-12g) crimps in different slots on the tool.
BTW: I've done a number of H4 conversions on both Beetle sedans and Speedsters. If you've got the parts all ready, a typical conversion with two, fused power relays, new wires, swapping the fast-ons in the sockets and dressing it all off should take you an afternoon and three or four beers. Don't forget to get a bunch of zip-ties to help dress it off.
Dr. Sparks
Fiberglass doesn't burn - it's glass, after all, so the "melt point" is way up there over 1,200 degrees.
The resin holding it all together, on the other hand, ignites at a much lower temp - I've heard of a lot of resins that'll ignite around 500 degrees or less. It all depends on which one you use. When it does ignite, it'll spread pretty quickly, too.
It just makes more sense to keep the heat down in the first place. If the rear of the headlight bucket gets really hot after it's been sitting still with the high beams on for five minutes, you've got a BIG problem!
Just keep the wattage down at 65 watts or under and you'll be fine.
Bill D.: If you keep the 14 gauge wires from the plug short, like under 6 inches, you should be OK. It's MUCHO better, though, to just pop the fast-on tabs out of the socket and replace them with like tabs with 10 or 12 gauge wires on them - then you'll not have any additional resistence along the circuit. They're easy to replace, and if you want a truly professional job of crimping the new ones on, get one of those ratcheting crimpers made for fast-on tab connectors - they're usually around $20 at truck fleet maintanence suppliers or the like and handle red (18-22g), blue (12-16g) and yellow (10-12g) crimps in different slots on the tool.
BTW: I've done a number of H4 conversions on both Beetle sedans and Speedsters. If you've got the parts all ready, a typical conversion with two, fused power relays, new wires, swapping the fast-ons in the sockets and dressing it all off should take you an afternoon and three or four beers. Don't forget to get a bunch of zip-ties to help dress it off.
Dr. Sparks
Be careful if you run on 'high beams' for extended periods. I was running the halogen high beams for 30 minutes on dark, back country roads when I caught that bad burning electrical smell. The wiring insulation by the dash switch melted! I rewired everything with heavier gauge wire, soldered all terminals (no fast crimp connections) and used heat shrink tubing. Now everything runs cool on high beams.
Wally: that's why many of us are adding relays fed from the battery up front. The current from the headlight switch is used to trigger the relays only(low amps), which then feed the heavy current to the bulbs.
This way keeps the amps away from the switch.
BD
This way keeps the amps away from the switch.
BD
Gordon,
Do you have a part no. or a source for the "fused power relays" you referenced?
thanx,
Greg B
Do you have a part no. or a source for the "fused power relays" you referenced?
thanx,
Greg B
Give me a day or so and I will post pics and info on the wiring upgrade I did.
Greg:
Most of the time I just use in-line fuses, either cartridge or tab style (whichever I find in my junk box). Last time I installed a relay on Pearl it was for the starter (in case of a weak starter switch) and it was a Bosch with an integral tab fuse (pretty cool, too). I'll check the catalogs now that I'm back in RI and see what I can find. The fuse was in the relay socket, so others must have that configuration, too.
Update, later in the evening:
I checked both Standard Motor Products and Motormite, both of which are pretty much the Bible of the independent auto parts folks, and, although Standard had a fused relay (RY-33 or VW 321906059C for Audi or VW electric fuel pumps) I don't know the contact rating of this unit so I can't recommend it. I also didn't see any fused relay sockets, but those are probably a Bosch item - I'll try to get a Bosch catalog tomorrow and see what they've got, just for the heck of it.
A much better alternative than fuses, however, would be to get a universal mount circuit breaker and put it in-line between the battery and the power input to the headlight relay, mounted as close to the battery as is practical. Standard Products BR-15 (15 amp) or BR-20 (20 amp) are breakers which have a housing mounting tab to enable easy mounting, and it has two stud terminals (they look like standard 3/16" dia. studs) for a ring-tab crimp terminal for the power leads. This way, if you short something while installing/testing them out, the breaker pops and then resets after a few seconds - MUCHO better than a fuse!
In fact, the perfect solution for BOTH heavier wiring AND headlight relays, in my opinion, would be an H4 headlight conversion kit from Painless Wiring, down in Texas. You can check out their wiring kit at:
www.painlessperformance.com/webcatalog/cat-headlightrelay.htm
and look for the #30815 - For H-4 halogen bulbs. This kit is almost exactly the same as the conversions I've done in the past, they include everything you'll need AND everything is pre-wired with a special socket you simply plug in to an existing headlight socket to act as a signal feed (on, Hi/Lo beam) for your new higher-powered circuits. Nothing could be easier, and it shouldn't take more than an hour to completely finish this conversion, even for a novice.
Gordon
Most of the time I just use in-line fuses, either cartridge or tab style (whichever I find in my junk box). Last time I installed a relay on Pearl it was for the starter (in case of a weak starter switch) and it was a Bosch with an integral tab fuse (pretty cool, too). I'll check the catalogs now that I'm back in RI and see what I can find. The fuse was in the relay socket, so others must have that configuration, too.
Update, later in the evening:
I checked both Standard Motor Products and Motormite, both of which are pretty much the Bible of the independent auto parts folks, and, although Standard had a fused relay (RY-33 or VW 321906059C for Audi or VW electric fuel pumps) I don't know the contact rating of this unit so I can't recommend it. I also didn't see any fused relay sockets, but those are probably a Bosch item - I'll try to get a Bosch catalog tomorrow and see what they've got, just for the heck of it.
A much better alternative than fuses, however, would be to get a universal mount circuit breaker and put it in-line between the battery and the power input to the headlight relay, mounted as close to the battery as is practical. Standard Products BR-15 (15 amp) or BR-20 (20 amp) are breakers which have a housing mounting tab to enable easy mounting, and it has two stud terminals (they look like standard 3/16" dia. studs) for a ring-tab crimp terminal for the power leads. This way, if you short something while installing/testing them out, the breaker pops and then resets after a few seconds - MUCHO better than a fuse!
In fact, the perfect solution for BOTH heavier wiring AND headlight relays, in my opinion, would be an H4 headlight conversion kit from Painless Wiring, down in Texas. You can check out their wiring kit at:
www.painlessperformance.com/webcatalog/cat-headlightrelay.htm
and look for the #30815 - For H-4 halogen bulbs. This kit is almost exactly the same as the conversions I've done in the past, they include everything you'll need AND everything is pre-wired with a special socket you simply plug in to an existing headlight socket to act as a signal feed (on, Hi/Lo beam) for your new higher-powered circuits. Nothing could be easier, and it shouldn't take more than an hour to completely finish this conversion, even for a novice.
Gordon
Gordon,
The circuit breakers are the way to go. i've found some 20 amp breakers that fit the fuse holder (Vintage Speedsters american style fuses). I think I bought some at Sears or WalMart.
Harleys use breakers also, but they are the inline type and are larger than the breakers that plug into the fuse block.
The part # I was curious about was the relay. I usually use the BOSCH relay for starter systems (on harleys and VW's). I wondered if your research included alternatives that are suitable for headlight systems.
Thanks for sharing your research and information.
Greg B
The circuit breakers are the way to go. i've found some 20 amp breakers that fit the fuse holder (Vintage Speedsters american style fuses). I think I bought some at Sears or WalMart.
Harleys use breakers also, but they are the inline type and are larger than the breakers that plug into the fuse block.
The part # I was curious about was the relay. I usually use the BOSCH relay for starter systems (on harleys and VW's). I wondered if your research included alternatives that are suitable for headlight systems.
Thanks for sharing your research and information.
Greg B
Greg:
I usually go from speed shop to speed shop and ask if they have either Hella or Bosch 30 amp SPST or SPDT relays suitable for higher amp headlights. I found them at Mario's Speed in Fall River, MA, at Foreign Autopart all over New England and at Carquest in Beaufort, SC. It usually has a contact rating right on the package, if not the relay itself.
Of course, the Autozone's, Pep Boys and Advance Auto usually have a cheap imitation for "auxiliary lights", but it can only handle about 15 amps before it goes into meltdown (typically, the contacts weld permanently in the "on" position - not too cool if it's running driving lights which light up the interior of the car in front of you!!) Another good place to look is West Marine - they carry all sorts of neat electrical stuff.
BTW: the Standard Motor Products catalog has circuit breaker replacements for Harleys:
Studded: BR-29 fits Harley 1711-1585 BR-31 fits Harley 1711-5091 BR33 fits 1771-1531
Tab style: BR-32 fits Harley 1771-1531 then they've got a bunch with ratings around those for Ford, and Mercury from 5 amps up to 30 amps - those will probably fit a standard fuse block, as that's the way Ford usually does it. They also have a "Universal Breaker Tray" that accepts snap-in breakers: BR-531
Find a local mom N pop auto parts store and ask if they can spare a Standard catalog. Might as well get one for Motormite as well, and then do the same at Napa - they have about 3 linear feet of specialty NAPA catalogs for all sorts of stuff, so you have to be specific and hope you've got a counter person who knows their stuff and can tell you what catalogs are available (they usually have lots to give away).
I'll be going by Foreign Autopart this afternoon to see what I can get there - maybe I can score a Hella and Bosch catalog!!
Dr. Sparks
P.S: You know, you can go pretty wild with relay configurations.....I remember building the equivalent of latching "AND" and "OR" gates using only relay logic during the Apollo program - used feedback loops, delays and all sorts of triggering signals/mechanisms to drive lab-built reed relays. The good old days..........and impervious to EMI pulses, too!
I usually go from speed shop to speed shop and ask if they have either Hella or Bosch 30 amp SPST or SPDT relays suitable for higher amp headlights. I found them at Mario's Speed in Fall River, MA, at Foreign Autopart all over New England and at Carquest in Beaufort, SC. It usually has a contact rating right on the package, if not the relay itself.
Of course, the Autozone's, Pep Boys and Advance Auto usually have a cheap imitation for "auxiliary lights", but it can only handle about 15 amps before it goes into meltdown (typically, the contacts weld permanently in the "on" position - not too cool if it's running driving lights which light up the interior of the car in front of you!!) Another good place to look is West Marine - they carry all sorts of neat electrical stuff.
BTW: the Standard Motor Products catalog has circuit breaker replacements for Harleys:
Studded: BR-29 fits Harley 1711-1585 BR-31 fits Harley 1711-5091 BR33 fits 1771-1531
Tab style: BR-32 fits Harley 1771-1531 then they've got a bunch with ratings around those for Ford, and Mercury from 5 amps up to 30 amps - those will probably fit a standard fuse block, as that's the way Ford usually does it. They also have a "Universal Breaker Tray" that accepts snap-in breakers: BR-531
Find a local mom N pop auto parts store and ask if they can spare a Standard catalog. Might as well get one for Motormite as well, and then do the same at Napa - they have about 3 linear feet of specialty NAPA catalogs for all sorts of stuff, so you have to be specific and hope you've got a counter person who knows their stuff and can tell you what catalogs are available (they usually have lots to give away).
I'll be going by Foreign Autopart this afternoon to see what I can get there - maybe I can score a Hella and Bosch catalog!!
Dr. Sparks
P.S: You know, you can go pretty wild with relay configurations.....I remember building the equivalent of latching "AND" and "OR" gates using only relay logic during the Apollo program - used feedback loops, delays and all sorts of triggering signals/mechanisms to drive lab-built reed relays. The good old days..........and impervious to EMI pulses, too!
Here is what I set up for headlight-wiring upgrade. I utilized the standard wiring to activate the relays, then 10g for the 'board' and 12g from board out to lights. Three relays - headlights low beam, hi beam and fog/driving lights. I wired hi and fog same circuit so they are activated by hi-beam switch. The 'board' is from Tap Plastics,they cut it to my specs, and neatly fits on side of battery well in my VS. Relays are Bosch plug in. I used old style fuses vs circuit breakers. I am only running Slyv.SilverStars for headlights, but get much better light vs stock, and my wiring system should adequately handly higher bulbs. Maybe overkill, but it was fun to put it together.
oops wrong pic. sorry guys
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Dale: Would Tap make more of those boards? If so, how much would they cost? Did they fasten the fuse clamps and the wire connecters or did you have to do that?
Bill - Tap just cut the plexiglass from pattern I gave them. I did the drilling and fastening. Any Tap can cut one out. I believe it was about 15 bucks, which biggest part was cutting charge.