2019 VMC BUILD WITH 2332 ENGINE. FINALLY STARTED AFTER SITTING A WHILE. RAN FINE FOR 10 MINUTE WARMUP. TURNED OFF. WON'T RESTART. ELECTRIC FUEL PUMP RUNS AND CARB JETS PUMP. ELECTRONIC IGNITION IS CONNECTED AND DRY. ANY SUGGESTIONS? THANKS!
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Do you have spark at the plugs?
Jason
An engine takes mechanical compression, fuel, and spark to run.
A no-start is almost never mechanical, so it's either fuel or spark. 95% of all "fuel" problems are spark.
Start with spark.
Small-town white-trash tip - a can of starting fluid can eliminate spark from the equation. It's dangerous to use too much, so be careful. But a 1 or 2 second spray down each carb throat, then a quick crank-over will tell you if it's fuel. If it catches and runs for 4 or 5 seconds on the ether, it's fuel. If it doesn't start, it's definitely spark.
Don't keep spraying in hopes of starting it - ether will blow the heads off the engine on a steady diet. 1 or 2 seconds, each carb, and no more.
Stan';s the man and correct. Follow his directions. Me ? I do it differently to get to the same conclusion. Have someone try to start the engine while you hold onto a plug wire. When lightning shoots out of your a$$ and ignites your underwear, you know it's gas !...............Bruce
Sitting how long? With what gas?
@jprpdr posted:2019 VMC BUILD WITH 2332 ENGINE. FINALLY STARTED AFTER SITTING A WHILE. RAN FINE FOR 10 MINUTE WARMUP. TURNED OFF. WON'T RESTART. ELECTRIC FUEL PUMP RUNS AND CARB JETS PUMP. ELECTRONIC IGNITION IS CONNECTED AND DRY. ANY SUGGESTIONS? THANKS!
Like Stan and Bruce said, there are a couple of ways to make sure that you are still getting spark (one way is more painful than the other). Electronic ignition is less likely to be a problem the original points ignition.
Since it was just running, I'm betting the fuel system is clogged somewhere or it is flooded. If you can see gas jetting down the carb throat when someone pumps the gas, that gives you more info - it should at least start and run for a few seconds if the ignition is good and it's not flooded. Have someone crank the engine while you sniff the exhaust - raw gas smells mean it's flooded.
If it's flooded, try holding the gas pedal to the floor and hold it there while cranking the engine.
THANKS TO EVERYONE FOR ALL THE TIPS. i MADE SURE THE MAIN LINE FROM THE ELECTRONIC IGNITION WAS SOLIDLY CONNECTED. TODAY, IT STARTED AND RESTARTED JUST LIKE IT SHOULD. I KNOW LETTING IT SIT FOR LONG PERIODS IS NOT GOOD. i WILL TRY TO START MORE OFTEN.
JPRPDR
I'd run a bottle of Techron fuel system cleaner thru next tank of gas. What kind of electric fuel pump are you using? If EMPI/Facet ******** pump - replace with a rotary fuel pump with a good metal fuel filter.
The biggest mistake people make is starting the car, running for ten minutes, and shutting it down.
People think they are doing the right thing for the car. They're NOT.
If you start it, DRIVE it for 30 minutes. No less. If you're not going to actually drive it, leave a battery tender on it and leave it alone.
More wear and tear happens during startup than any other time. Plus the oil and engine will not come all the way up to running temp if you idle for ten minutes. To get it HOT will burn off all the moisture, gasoline byproducts, and acids that build up inside the engine. That is what you want, to burn that crap off so it doesn't silently and slowly eat away at your bearings, rings, cylinders, valves, and guides.
+1
I agree 100% with the prescription from the good Dr. Pip… with the following caveat (with which I’m sure he’ll agree).
I think sometimes we overlook opportunities to drive these contraptions because we’ve got a mental checklist why we shouldn’t: might rain, might be left unattended, trip might be too long, trip might be too short, etc.
Danny’s 100% right regarding the wear on cold-start, but the same is true with your DD, and yet it doesn’t stop any of us from driving 5 minutes to the Circle K for a Polar Pop. If you won’t drive your car unless you’ve got a half hour blocked out for spirited driving, you may find yourself never driving at all. That would be a pity.
I’m super-bad about this, and am becoming hyper aware of the tendency in myself. I’m up on the lift (again), and missing out on a perfect Spring/early-Summer in pursuit of some quixotic ideal. Constantly chasing “perfect” has been the enemy of nearly every good thing - not just as it pertains to cars, but in nearly every undertaking in life. Being aware of the tradeoffs is great, because knowing helps make better decisions… usually.
But the best decision you can make is to just drive the thing. Drive it a lot, and you’ll love it more every day, or maybe not - but at least you will have given it an honest effort, instead of just washing and waxing your garage-art fixture
Drive ‘em.
I agree with Stan. Just drive the damn thing. That’s what I’ve been doing for the past five years as little niggling things have cropped up and I just ignored them to fix them when I have the time. Then, I found what looked like the remnants of a mouse nest inside of my fan shroud late this past Spring (we’ve had trouble, in New England, just figuring out when the heck “Spring” actually was).
A complete, spur-of-the-moment engine pull happened to clean all of the shmutz out of the fan and cylinders and, in the process, I found at least a dozen other things to “fix” along the way (not to mention vacuuming mouse stuff up here and there) and I found that “Supply Chain Issues” seem to continue to exist in our hobby.
Life, like grocery runs, doctor visits and Little League games, got in the way, so my original 30-minute “Let’s start her up and get out there on the road” session has turned into a 6-week marathon when I have missed weekly events I wanted to go to. Such is the life of a Speedstah replicah owner.
Life gets in the way. A lot. Just go with it.
And great news, that it started right up the next day. The “Speedstah Gods” were smiling down on you.
Gordon - The Speedstah Guy from Massachusetts.
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Stan and Gordon are on the right track. You shouldn't let little niggling things keep you from driving. But you need to take that further. You need to work on reasons why it's imperative that you drive.
A big mistake many Speedster owners make is using a gas station close to home.
Your regular station should be at least 10 miles away. That way, your tank will never be completely full by the time you get the car back in the garage. And, since it's a good idea to keep the tank as full as possible (to minimize air and thus water vapor in the tank), you always have a sound reason to take the car out — to top up the tank.
As any pilot knows, to avoid trouble you've got to stay 'ahead of the machine'. You've got to be thinking of stuff like this constantly to keep an old-school car in top shape.
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Tough day at the office?
Forced to push the button at Spacely Sprockets? Cogsworth Cogs nipping at your heels? Four 2-hour meetings back-to-back make you want to stick your head in Rosie the Robot’s oven?
Take a 30 minute vacation when you get home. It's sitting right there in your garage waiting for you.
@Sacto Mitch posted:.A big mistake many Speedster owners make is using a gas station close to home.
Your regular station should be at least 10 miles away. That way, your tank will never be completely full by the time you get the car back in the garage. And, since it's a good idea to keep the tank as full as possible (to minimize air and thus water vapor in the tank), you always have a sound reason to take the car out — to top up the tank.
I have 3 gas stations that I use regularly. The one in town is the closest. I use it when I just need to fill up for a next day drive or if I'm going to park it for awhile. But when I have a little more time, I'll go to one a little further away via many different routes. Here are two.
I only use ethanol free gas in my car, so sometimes, I'll look up on https://www.pure-gas.org/maps/NC and find some gas station in the middle of nowhere and go check it out. Two lane backroads are mandatory, center lines are optional.
I met a friend for a beer at some farm just the other day and filled up the car at the other spot.
Test rides are another excuse to take the car out. I put in an alternator light a couple of weeks ago. Well guess what, I had to take it out for a test.
Why am I reminded of GERD when I read this post?
@Bob: IM S6 posted:Why am I reminded of GERD when I read this post?
I HAVE NO IDEA.
@DannyP posted:If you start it, DRIVE it for 30 minutes. No less.
This has me thinking about what I’m experiencing.
I took delivery of my new VMC speedster about 15 months ago and have logged about 2700 miles. Over time, cold starts have become much more difficult. I can start it because I’ve figured out what it wants, but it is labored and would not make for an appealing cold-start video on BAT - with full bowls I give the gas pedal 3 to 4 full, deliberate pumps, then as I turn the ignition over I give the pedal shallow pumps. After 20 seconds or so it may idle without stalling. I warm up at idle for 5 timed minutes, then I drive calm for at least 5 to 10 minutes before allowing higher revs and quicker acceleration (hooning is infrequent, of short duration, and only occurs when my dumb-dumb oil temp gage indicates normal operating temp).
Looking back, I must admit that many…most?…of my drives have probably been 10 to 20 minutes in duration. The cars and coffee meets I attend are in town, or in an adjacent town. The days I use my speedster to run errands, or visit my nearby sister, or to visit/help my nearby in-laws, or to pick up a few missing grocery items, or to simply clear my head, are by necessity crammed into a busy schedule. If I didn’t use it for these purposes, it would sit far more often and would likely have less than half the mileage.
Finding reasons to drive it at least once a week is certainly beneficial to me, so I do just that. But by doing so, a 30+ minute continuous drive is clearly the exception for me. Am I causing premature wear and possibly contributing to increasing cold start difficulties with shorter drives? If the consensus is yes or maybe, aside from longer drives, is there anything else I can or should do differently?
Jon
BEATS ME
@Jon T posted:This has me thinking about what I’m experiencing.
I took delivery of my new VMC speedster about 15 months ago and have logged about 2700 miles. Over time, cold starts have become much more difficult.
In those 15 months, what have you done mechanically, as far as maintenance, to your engine? Valve adjustment, check plugs and timing, adjust carbs, etc.
Jon wrote:
”I give the gas pedal 3 to 4 full, deliberate pumps, then as I turn the ignition over I give the pedal shallow pumps. After 20 seconds or so it may idle without stalling. I warm up at idle for 5 timed minutes, then I drive calm for at least 5 to 10 minutes before allowing higher revs and quicker acceleration (hooning is infrequent, of short duration, and only occurs when my dumb-dumb oil temp gage indicates normal operating temp).”
Sounds about right. Remember, too, that as the seasons and temps change, so does the cold start experience - harder in winter, easier in summer. I do the same cold start dance, maybe let settle for a minute at most at idle and then take off. I take it sort of easy for another minute, but that’s about it. It takes me five minutes to get to a freeway and by that time it is warm enough for anything.
Happy Motoring!
@Jon T posted:This has me thinking about what I’m experiencing.
I took delivery of my new VMC speedster about 15 months ago and have logged about 2700 miles. Over time, cold starts have become much more difficult. I can start it because I’ve figured out what it wants, but it is labored and would not make for an appealing cold-start video on BAT - with full bowls I give the gas pedal 3 to 4 full, deliberate pumps, then as I turn the ignition over I give the pedal shallow pumps. After 20 seconds or so it may idle without stalling. I warm up at idle for 5 timed minutes, then I drive calm for at least 5 to 10 minutes before allowing higher revs and quicker acceleration (hooning is infrequent, of short duration, and only occurs when my dumb-dumb oil temp gage indicates normal operating temp).
Looking back, I must admit that many…most?…of my drives have probably been 10 to 20 minutes in duration. The cars and coffee meets I attend are in town, or in an adjacent town. The days I use my speedster to run errands, or visit my nearby sister, or to visit/help my nearby in-laws, or to pick up a few missing grocery items, or to simply clear my head, are by necessity crammed into a busy schedule. If I didn’t use it for these purposes, it would sit far more often and would likely have less than half the mileage.
Finding reasons to drive it at least once a week is certainly beneficial to me, so I do just that. But by doing so, a 30+ minute continuous drive is clearly the exception for me. Am I causing premature wear and possibly contributing to increasing cold start difficulties with shorter drives? If the consensus is yes or maybe, aside from longer drives, is there anything else I can or should do differently?
Jon
Sounds to me that you need some fine tuning as your not in cold weather and the warm up period should not be that horrendous but it does take a few minutes. It is not a turn the key and run .... type of engine like a subie.... warm up is important.
Maintenance has included 300 mile oil change and valve adjustment check performed by Greg’s shop, then 12 months later another oil change and valve adjustment check performed by a local mechanic who owns two air cooled VWs and formerly owned a JPS built coupe. He said the gaps were spot on and needed no adjustment (and yes, I provided him with valve adjustment specs recommended by Greg). Air filters cleaned and re-oiled once, carb linkages inspected and lubber. But nothing else - I’ve not put a timing light on it (on my shopping list), or fiddled with carbs.
I should add that once warm it runs fantastic, and I’ve never had a problem with restart, whether it has sat for 2 minutes or 60.
Maybe you just need to let it idle for a bit with the garage door open .... before taking off...
I usually try to gently back out of my garage onto my downward sloping driveway sooner than later to avoid filling it with exhaust, and if it is early morning, to give my sleeping wife a break. 
Then a 5 minute idle warm-up in the driveway before I push off.
When you go to start up, let the electric fuel pump run to fill the carb float bowls. Then pump gas to get gas to cylinders for starting. With infrequent use, try to fill up with non-ethanol gas. Ethanol gas breaks down in as little as 30 days - and sucks in moisture. I like Chevron Techron fuel system cleaner added to gas - I use it on marine engines with great success. Also, make sure there is a good fuel filter in the gas delivery system.
I'm certainly not gonna argue with Stan, as driving the car is the whole point.
I don't know who ever thought that opening the garage door and idling your car is a good thing to do.
That is really all I was going for. In the summer, ten to fifteen minutes of driving may warm your car up enough.
In the colder months, probably not. Mine is cold-blooded due to the 911 fan and oil cooler arrangement with no thermostatic air flaps. My car simply takes longer than most to get up to temperature.
To be clear - I knew that’s what you meant, Dr. P. I was just opining regarding the general propensity of people to NOT use their cars.
In no way did I want to seem contrarian. Your advice (as always) is spot-on.
Thanks for the clarification Danny. It never occurred to me to simply let it idle and then turn it off to break up a long spell of inactivity. I suppose that’s because I live where I don’t have to wait more than a few weeks or so to have acceptable driving weather, even during the recent unusually wet winter. That did require me to drive a few times when the temp was in the upper 40s.
I just drove about 25 minutes to a C&C, and then back home about 90 minutes later. It required the same cold startup routine (yes I let the fuel pump run sufficiently long). It ran great both ways. I met Bruce @aircooled which was nice as well as @SlikkNikk and his Autrium green VS speedster.
.
OK, I don't think anyone has mentioned this yet, so I'll chime in.
Jon, what speed does your engine idle at once it's fully warmed up ?
I don't know how old you are or how much experience you've had with non-computerized engines with carbs (and in our case, carbs with no chokes), so sorry if you already know this, but —
Some of us have set our warm idle speed up to around 1000-1200 so that the engine will idle reliably from a dead-cold start. Unlike modern cars, or even old-school cars with automatic chokes, there's nothing on the engine to help it along when starting from cold.
My cold start drill is two pumps, throttle half-way open when cranking, and then foot completely off the pedal from there on out. It coughs and sputters for 30 seconds, evens out a little, but then takes about three minutes before it's running even enough to drive off comfortably.
But even then, it's nowhere near fully warmed up. As Danny says, that can take between 15 to 30 minutes of driving depending how cold it is outside (and how much equipment your air- and oil-cooling systems have to compensate for cold starting conditions).
If your warm idle is set down to 700-800 (as it would be in most modern cars), it will likely have trouble idling without a little pedal for the first minute or two after firing.
And, too, while these carbs are remarkably stable when they've been properly set up, dialed in, and kept clean (mostly by being driven frequently), they do tend to drift out of adjustment over time and usually could stand some minor tweaking every six months to a year. (The need for a tweak often shows up at the change in seasons.)
I don't know my way around the carbs VMC is currently using, but Webers and Dellortos (and most carbs) have a quick procedure for adjusting the idle flow at each barrel so it's happiest. On my car, dialing in all four barrels with the provided thumbscrews takes about two minutes and each adjustment is usually about a quarter-turn or less. It's done completely 'by ear', and after you've done it once or twice, it's no big deal. I'll usually go for a drive, wait until the engine is fully warmed up, pull over somewhere convenient, and do it at the side of the road.
Return with us now to the days of yesteryear.
Thanks Mitch. I’m certainly old enough to have driven carbureted cars, but my hands on experience playing with them and a nil. My warm idle speed is a touch north of 1000, and sounds and feels about right.
Our friend Michael from Hawaii was kind enough to send his Solex carburetor manual to me close to a year ago after he realized he no longer needed it, so it is time I read it again, buy some tools and get my hands a bit dirty. There does not seem to be much discussion here about Solex/Kadron carb adjustment though.
I’m assuming you have a VW engine of some sort with Weber or Dellorto carbs? My spider has Dellortos and as others have mentioned they have no choke. Starting procedure requires a couple of throttle stomps to inject gas into the intakes via the accelerator pumps.
I don’t let my car idle cold. As soon as it will run, which is after 1 or 2 attempts to start it, I get underway. Slowly and short shifting. It will idle fine after I’ve driven as little as 1,000 feet.
As Mitch mentioned, my warm idle is set to 1100 rpm and when it’s cold, it will idle ~950 rpm.
@dlearl476 posted:I’m assuming you have a VW engine of some sort with Weber or Dellorto carbs?
He's got Kadrons (Solex).
Greg uses them to eliminate the flopping and twitching a lot of folks go through on a rather steep learning curve with IDFs - although in my somewhat limited experience with them, they weren't any easier. The idle jets don't plug as readily, but the carbs themselves aren't nearly as sophisticated. I suppose we pick our poison.
The same idle speed principle applies, although as a single-barrel carb, there are some differences in setup.
@Jon T posted:But by doing so, a 30+ minute continuous drive is clearly the exception for me. Am I causing premature wear and possibly contributing to increasing cold start difficulties with shorter drives? If the consensus is yes or maybe, aside from longer drives, is there anything else I can or should do differently?
Jon
Probably, although to be clear - you're driving less than 2200 mi/year. Given a Type 1 in good fettle should go >60,000 mi before needing a freshening - even if you're cutting it in half we're talking about 14 years worth of driving. 14 years from now is too far out to worry about.
Just drive it.
@Jon T posted:But by doing so, a 30+ minute continuous drive is clearly the exception for me. Am I causing premature wear and possibly contributing to increasing cold start difficulties with shorter drives? If the consensus is yes or maybe, aside from longer drives, is there anything else I can or should do differently?
Jon
Very, very unlikely. Much more likely is the part where nobody is checking timing, etc.
@Jon T posted:But by doing so, a 30+ minute continuous drive is clearly the exception for me. Am I causing premature wear and possibly contributing to increasing cold start difficulties with shorter drives? If the consensus is yes or maybe, aside from longer drives, is there anything else I can or should do differently?
Jon
Check the valve adjustment, the sync on your carbs, the total timing, and your advance as you rev the engine from idle to 3200 RPM (+/-) every year as a part of your (and I do mean you) spring service. A timing light is less than $50 and a carb snail is another $50. Checking the timing takes 30 seconds, the sync with a snail not even that. Knowledge is power.
Once you've mastered that, it's also not out of the question for even the most unmechanical person to check his idle mixture adjustment. This is pretty basic stuff - something an owner should be able to do, IMHO. This is not a Toyota. Being able to tweak on the fly is part of the experience.
A shop really ought to be able to check your A:F mixture (through a bung in the exhaust) through the entire RPM range - idle, wide-open throttle, and in transition. Nobody is expecting the average owner to be tuning his engine, but the difference it makes when somebody does cannot be overstated.
Simply making sure something isn't "off" is a part of the ownership drill.
When I received my car, it was running rich to the point of fuel spitting out of the exhaust. There was a significant difference in altitude where my car was born and where I live. Luckily for you the altitude from where your car was born and your home is pretty close. Adjusting the carbs for your area, and even the season makes a world of difference.
I was new to carbs when I got my car. It was pretty easy. It's a zen kinda thing to adjust them, BUT as Danny would say, everything else has to be where it needs to be first, valves, timing, clean and gapped plugs.
Pulling the plugs can also tell you how the engine is running. If they're getting fouled from too much fuel, they could start affecting performance. Too little fuel is also bad.
Aircooled VW engines run rich. There.... I said it.
Lots of Harley Davidson motorcycles do, too, but that's another story.
To illustrate that point, I took my car out for a ride and just happened to see my son in the center of town (he was driving his 911) who followed me to his house, about 3 miles away. When we got there his only comment was, "Well! It finally sounds right, but it's smells like it's running kinda rich!"
It's the lament of the Speedster owner........
@Gordon Nichols, I have to beg to differ on that.
MOST aircooled engines run rich. Not all. And definitely not mine, either on carbs or EFI.
Hey, Dan!
@dlearl476 posted:I’m assuming you have a VW engine of some sort with Weber or Dellorto carbs? My spider has Dellortos and as others have mentioned they have no choke. Starting procedure requires a couple of throttle stomps to inject gas into the intakes via the accelerator pumps.
I don’t let my car idle cold. As soon as it will run, which is after 1 or 2 attempts to start it, I get underway. Slowly and short shifting. It will idle fine after I’ve driven as little as 1,000 feet.
As Mitch mentioned, my warm idle is set to 1100 rpm and when it’s cold, it will idle ~950 rpm.
This totally coincides with stock air cooled VW wisdom. You can take off almost immediately but need to be gentle until it warms up; driving it gently instead of just letting it idle provides for a quicker and better warmup. My car has dual Dellortos and at first it sputters a little bit and you need to stomp the throttle a few times but almost immediately it starts idling. Since it still has the mechanical fuel pump after extended periods of not being used it takes some cranking for the bowls to fill up but once it does it is smooth sailing.
@Gordon Nichols posted:Aircooled VW engines run rich. There.... I said it.
Lots of Harley Davidson motorcycles do, too, but that's another story.
To illustrate that point, I took my car out for a ride and just happened to see my son in the center of town (he was driving his 911) who followed me to his house, about 3 miles away. When we got there his only comment was, "Well! It finally sounds right, but it's smells like it's running kinda rich!"
It's the lament of the Speedster owner........
I notice I always smell a little like gasoline when I use my car. Spark plugs look perfect when examined so it looks like the mix is just right. The exhaust fumes have that distinctive Harley Davidson-like smell. My buddy's stock '67 Bug has the same identical exhaust smell.
