Hartop input

There is some backchannel chatter of developing a hardtop just for replica's. If either camp talking moves ahead it will be a quality option that will be reasonably priced for those of us that don't live in sunny SoCal.

The idea is to develop a Plasticon-clone. There is also chatter of developing a hardtop that is less of a Miata hardtop clone (Plasticon) but rather follows the basic lines of the ragtop profile we all love. It would be lower and less rounded than the Plasticon.

If you have any ideas please post them.

If a Plasticon clone is introduced, for the sake of conversation I would be interested in a fixed sunroof using tinted Plexiglass to let in more light.

List your input.

I'm amazed their are no hardtop options over in the US.

There are at least three options here in the UK, two following the original hardtop shape and one that is a more flowing Coupe like shape.

Must be our climate!!

Check www.fibersteel.com

Hardtop for both the real thing and now offered for replicas

Tony

Those both look nice, but also very different form the lovely one that IM see is that simply what was available on the Roadster body styles from Porsche?

There is a photo of one of the IM ones on a white IM in the New Coupe Mold thread.

-Jeff

Anthony,

Are you sure about that? It would be news to me- Bothe the hardtop and the sliding side curtains have been "coming soon" for several years now. I've got what I believe to be the only Glasspar hardtop on a replica in the world, and the process of obtaining it just about killed me.

I've posted at length several times on this subject- check out the link below:

www.speedsterowners.com/forum/readmsg.asp?t=3401

Russ (Fibersteel) has been *t-a-l-k-i-n-g* about introducing a Speedster replica hardtop forever, ask any of the forum old timers. Ditto his Plexiglass sliding windows. Its too bad as his work is always first class, and he is a decent guy. (I bought a pair of seats from him, his upholsterer covered them, great quality.)

The two people talking about developing hardtops, one on the east coast the other on the west coast, will get theirs to market within a reasonable period of time. I hope both groups press ahead so there will be competitive pricing.

Now is the time to offer your suggestions/input, please do.

Stan:

Would you (or some other hard top owner) be willing to let someone reputable (like me) splash a mold of your hard top sometime? From that we could make a reverse, and from that make a production mold.

We would need access to your top for 48 hours after receipt, and return it like new (since we have to clean it before and after the mold process).

Stan,

Sounds like a great idea to me, Oh wait, it is your hardtop! But look at the buddies you would have.

Good idea Gordon, Stans Hardtop does look aces!

Bruce

Gordon,
Are you involved in the mold making or pattern making field? Our business as well as one of our associates do this kind of work and I would be glad to bounce the idea around a bit with them. I for one (well, my wife anyway) would love to have a removable hardtop.

Currently we produce patterns and molds for many of the composite fenders, etc... found on Toyota and other vehicles.

Tony Miller

Simon,
Could you post the names of the UK suppliers?
Cheers,
Jim.

Gordon and Bruce,

John Steele at JPS had a mold made for my top in 2002 from two Glasspar hardtops, with Russ' permission- but all the final finish work on my top was done by Russ at Fibersteel after the car was done. I'm not sure if JPS still has the mold, or the arraignment John and Russ have worked out. I think Russ owns the rights to use the shape of the top, and I wouldn't feel right about having a mold splashed off of my top. You

I agree with everything Stan said.

The individuals on the East Coast who are contemplating producing replica hardtops have a thorough background with one of the major canoe/kayak manufacturers -- they personally handle everything from fabricating custom molds for the prototypes each year, R & D for their company and assist where needed in their volume production runs. (One of them also worked for a F-1 team doing their custom carbon fiber body work, or so I was told.)

I would assume with their performance boating background they know 'glass and the need for a smooth, e-v-e-n hull, while being durable enough to hold-up against abuse from river rocks, etc. I have no doubt they know and do quality work. To be honest though, I don't know if they are blowing hot air about tops. (This would be their own project and not related to their "job.")

I volunteered my car as their mule for a practice fit, etc., and later they could invite other owners in the mid-Atlantic region to be test fitted, perhaps for a future discount for their trouble.

I personally don't believe "fit" would be as big of a problem as Stan described *IF* the front edge of the hardtop makes a tight seal to the windshield frame, all of which are the same regardless of manufacturer, i.e., IM, JPS, Vintage, etc. The question is whether the windshield being an inch or two forward or back would create fitment problems in back. I am not so sure it would at the rear of the hardtop because the outside rear edge of the hardtop can sit within a range of locations on the rear deck area, same as you mount a new rag top -- that I can envision the hardtop could sit anywhere withing a several inches and not hurt a thing, though maybe I am overlooking something here.

I don't know if a trick hardtop can be sold for the $500 figure that was mentioned by someone. I suggested the east coast guys do their homework, sharpen their pencils and over the winter build a dozen or so tops and trailer them up to Carlisle for a group reaction.

Maybe the west coast individual will speak up here. He definitely knows his stuff and is a darn nice guy.

Erik,
I think the rear fit would be a problem since the contour of the deck area immediately behind the cockpit varies as you move further to the rear. The tonneau is not an issue as it is flexible and will conform within reason to the rear deck.
I have a hard tonneau here that rests on this rear section and any movement forward or back creates a fit problem. There is one sweet spot where it works.
The Fibersteel site mentions fit issues on the replica hardtops and one would need to contact them for details. I suppose one could leave the rear section a bit oversize for scribing and fitting to the rear of each individual car depending on windscren location but this is really beyond most backyard mecahnics as you only get one shot at it.
Best,
Tony

Here is what I'm doing:

I'm fabricating 2 hard tops one to fit a cmc the other one to fit an autos clasicos wich is supposed to be close to a vintage, my hard tops will have an adjustable rubber seal that will allow for nice fit even is different body contours in the back arise, the lenght of the hard top are adjustable also as my hard tops are retractable (the fold in sections) like a mercedes hard top an that allows for one slice section to be fine tune up to 2 inch longer very easy, the design and prototyping in my computer systems and cnc machines are taking a lot of work but is going to be all worth, since I want to drive my speedsters year round specially the one that is going to have a/c (non-vw based) I have no plans to make it motorized because is going to be too expensive thay way, maybe that will be an upgrade in the future.

Tops will come with windows too.

I will need an owner of a vintage to try one and see how good this works

Jim,

The UK suppliers are:-

speedsterclinic.co.uk who have a replica of the glasspar top (Ricola, with the suby engine helped develop I believe).

studio-g.co.uk who have a coupe shape type hardtop.

chesil.co.uk who had their own hardtop but are likely moving to studio-g style. (studio-g sell the Chesil Speedster 2)

Picture of each in my area

After seeing Simon's top pictures, I'd see about importing one of them if I really wanted a top for a car I already had. The problem with any Glasspar replica is going to be the wing windows behind the side glass. They are made to pivot in and provide some ventilation, but they don't seal all that well. As cool as they look, they kind of defeat the purpose of a hard-top if they leak at all.

The plasticon shape is wrong for any car I've seen. Simon's center picture has what looks to be a decent shape, and has no window. I'd recommend buying one, shipping it over, trying it out, and splashing a mold off of this one if it works. More windows means more fit and finish which would drive the cost up a lot.

Which brings me to my final point- cost. I see no way, none at all, that this could happen for less than about $2000 each. I know the fiberglass portion of the tops would cost a fraction of that, but you still need a rear window with a compound curve, and all the seals. And a head liner. And side glass. Add any kind of paint, and it gets spendy. Maybe the answer is just to import what is already being marketed "across the pond".

Just my .02 worth...

While working on a JPS speedster that had a hardtop, I looked closely as to how it is set onto the front windshield frame and how it rests on the rear body section . This hard top didn't have the side wing windows and utlized the canvas side curtains.

Front:

Mounting was done with a convertible top bow nicely grafted and glassed into the hardtop that resulted with a wind and water tight seal. The convertible top style clips are used to secure it .

Rear:

The left and right sides of the top are secured to where the convertible top bow pivots points are located with flat tabs mounted onto the hard top with chrome acorn nuts securing the top on each side. The convertible top on this speedster was not installed on this speedster...however, if the convertible top and bows do fit well into the rear tub area (flush with the body)I see no reason why the convertible top couldn't be left in place. The only concern would be no rear seat area storage space.

The windshield positioning, i.e. forward or back does not seem to be a concern as the hard top had a soft rubber rear seal that would take up the variations caused from where the windshield posts are installed, hence where the rear of the hard top comes to rest on the body.
The posts can be installed only so far back on the fender area due to interference with installing the post mounting bolt and washer under the fender area. The only issue would be how far forward the posts were mounted. From all the speedsters I have worked on, most seem to be nearly the same , the few that were off had a variation of 1/2"-3/4" maximum and everything still was functional.

With the mentioned hard top soft rubber sear and the slightly raised rear body lip, I feel an aftermarket top can easily be designed for the replica speedster.

Off subject a touch, but Simon, every time I see pics of your car's underpinnings and the great paint detail I think 'art museum'
Thanks!
P.

I agree with Allen, the rear fitment isn't complicated per se due to the rubber gasket.

Re forming the rear plesiglass window, that too is a piece of cake. You need some sort of low-temp oven that has a vacuum component. The kayak/canoe people I spoke with modified a pizza oven and added a regular shop vacuum. You build a mold for the correct shape and contour of the window, rest the plexiglass on top of the form, heat the oven and then depressurize it with the vacuum. The heated plexiglass sheet automatically conforms to the shape of the mold. I have been assured its that simple. Low tech, low labor, low material costs.

I for one would not be comfortable with buying another top someone else has invested their time and money into its R & D and then splashing a top from it. If the guys on the east coast and the individual out west want to develop their own tops I would buy direct from either but I wouldn't buy a bootlegged copy. Frankly I am tired of waiting for Russ to fill the niche so I hope someone else does.

I agree about bootlegging something someone else has developed, Erik, and I too wouldn't hold my breath on Russ. The English tops look good- maybe somebody could import a dozen or so, and offer them for sale. I'm thinking developing a marketable top is going to be harder than anybody thinks, especially with the $500 figure being thrown out as a price point. I hope I'm wrong. Good luck.

IM hardtop about 2500 US dollars??? Well worth the money it will be back on my car next week.

Making a direct mold of an existing top (a positive or male) is a very simple operation, requiring a release agent sprayed onto the original, then a thin gel coat for smoothness, then a lay-up of cloth and resin to an appropriate thickness (I would go for 3/8"+ to make sure it holds a true shape). Were it not for the abrupt "creases" made by the top bows, a convertible top would work pretty well, or could serve as the basis for a male mold to be modified with Bondo until it has the shape you want, but that takes a lot of time - might be easier to copy a Miata top or something else that's close and then modify THAT to fit a Speedster.

The male would have to be reinforced with plywood glassed on the outside - not a big deal and done while it's still on the positive to guarantee its' shape. This is also the time to cut in the rear window hole, and the piece cut out is the shaped mold for the rear window plexiglass, since it'll hold its' shape to a higher temp than plexiglass will, allowing the window to be shaped in a small oven under low heat.

Then, making a reverse of that (a negative or female) in fiberglass, not a metal buck, would be an equally simple operation. That mold would then have to be reinforced with glassed-in wood on the underside to hold it's true shape. Once the wood reinforcements are in, it's good to go. It could then be "finished" with more fiberglass or body filler for accents or trim points, and worked until it looks like a mirror of the original, or is modified from the original to a desired shape.

I like Alan's idea of grafting on a convertible tops' header bow, but it would be just as easy to graft one onto the male, and then crank out a female mold capable of making copies with the bow fully integrated with the rest of the top. You could easily test out (for looks) the male as a real top on a car before you reinforce it or mold a negative from it. You just have to take into consideration the difference in final dimensions. This positive is also where you decide how to handle the differences in rear cowl curves and design in a rubber gasketing system (a tubular, rubber gasket like on early Corvette tops sounds good).

All this could be done, full time, in a couple of weeks on the outside, leaving you with a fiberglass mold ready to make pre-production copies.

THIS is how it's done in the small-volume boat building businesses in Rhode Island (and in a lot of the larger volume places around here as well). ALL of the smaller boat builders around here are using fiberglass molds for boats of 7 ft. up into the 20+ foot range, and they last for years and hundreds of copies. "Tooling" involves having someone trim or tweak the mold til you get it right.

Gordon, being as you seem quite knowledgeable on the mold making front, I was wondering what your thoughts are on what would be required to make a mold to produce a copy of a well restored 356 coupe?

-Jeff

Gordon,
Am I missing something in your description or wouldn't the first mold you made direct from the top be the ne used to produce the final, finished top?

The original top is the "positive" and you then made a negative mold. Reinforce that, spray inside with release, add a gel coat, then layer to required thickness, glass in the bow, etc.... That would now give you another positive with the gel on the outside, rough finish inside to be covered by the headliner.

I'll talk to our guys tomorrow just to get an idea of what they think it would cost to do a mold and then finished pieces.

Best,
Tony

Anthony: Damn! You're right! Got carried away there.....been watching too much sports on TV today...or been looking at too many boat molds lately...thanks for catching that!

Jeff:

BIG difference between a top and a full car.... While it could still be done in FRP, the shape is a lot of complex curves (is ANYTHING straight on these bodies?), some of which would lock the part into the mold unless a number of parts were done separately and grafted later on. It would, therefore, require a number of different molds of different parts, and then all pulled together in final product assembly to avoid parts locking themselves into the molds.

In addition, I'm certain that the reinforcement points would be different between a Speedster and a coupe, requiring modifications to the sub-frame supporting the body (not the pan, but the body's frame).

This is all time and labor intensive to do with Fiberglass molds. Yes, it can be done with advanced CAD systems and metal/fiberglass molds, but then it's going to cost a LOT of money, and that's where the tooling quotes on here of $100K - $200K and more might be coming from, and I believe those numbers - good tooling costs a lot these days.

That's the difference between high-tech manufacture and low-tech, low-labor-cost alternatives. Many of these molds and bodies used to be made in countries of very low-cost labor, and those places are quickly disappearing. So what if it took three weeks of fine tuning a mold by hand when you were paying someone $5 bucks per day?? Much of the plactics and FRP parts used by my old company used to come from Hong Kong and then Taiwan, and now all that has moved to Indonesia or mainland China. That's also why older, good quality molds are worth so much - the replacement cost is out of sight!

Gordon,
Your mention of $5.00 per day made me think of "Raul" aka Auto Classico in Mexico...at one time he listed a hard top on his parts list . However I would hesitate with the recollection of him trying to unload quite a bit of speedster related items here some time ago

Gordon, thanks for the insight.

What are your thoughts on taking a current 356A mold/body and working from the top of the windshield/back of the doors to graft on a coupe back end?

-Jeff

I am one who had chatted with Erik on this subject off-site. My thought is; with the number of DIY'ers here I expect there would be quite a few who would be interested in a raw unfinished plasticon style shell with a rear window, good fit at the windshield, reasonably close fit at the rear, that can be finished by the owner as the owner prefers - seems that might be a product his canoe builder source would be able to produce with the least complications involved for possibly a modest cost. It might be interesting to know how close or not the range of measurement between various cars - from top center of windshield frame to top center of rear edge of cockpit.

From top center of the windshield frame to center of the rear body lip 52 3/4"

I have a 55 coupe if anyone's interested in splashing a mold from it. I was planning on doing it myself this past Summer but got too busy with work and it hasn't let up yet.

I'm planning on cutting a folding (Beetle) sunroof into it over the Winter, but if anyone wants to do a mold before hand, let me know.

I'm on the Southern Shore of MAssachusetts, near Plymouth.

TC

Interesting topic. I would like to receive input on a hard top that my friend and I have been working on. We didn't like the bubble tops that we have seen and prefer the sleeker or outlaw look.

We have discussed some issues like variances in windshield placement and have decided to create with a small brow or overhang (maybe 1 inch) that could be trimmed as owner desires. Front attachment would be with same fasteners as soft top. Rear attachment is TBD.

Rear opening will probably be oval and will not wrap around. Probably using lexan as I have yet to find glass that fits the contour.

What kind of interest would there be for this finished product?

- Larry

nice job larry

Wow! That's smooth!

How much lower than a "low bow" soft top does it sit?

hi all,

does anyone speak portuguese? if so (and if not) go to
ebay.com, scroll to bottom, click on brazil (this is the brazilian ebay), then in the
"search" window "buscar" type in "porsche 550", spyder, speedster etc..
the 550 and speedster share the same windshields therefore front edge should be the same. this company in brazil (where do you think beck gets them) sells a spyder hardtop
for about $150 US (plus shipping of course), i'm sure it would be very simple to adapt
this (length, rear contour) to fit the speedster. I had a portuguese friend inquire if
they made a top for the speedster====not yet. Wait till you see the prices for complete
and kit cars, it'll make you cry. I checked today no spyder hardtops for sale individually.
they are usually listed under "capo rigida 550"=="top hard 550" or some other
variation of those words.
just something to mull over==bruce

larry, what did you use for your form, is that foam/filler?

I like it! Just add me to your future costomer list. As for the opening in back how about one of those oval billit hot top windows? Just an idea. Since I am 5'8" it shouldn't be to hard to get in . I t reminds me of an older carson top. It really looks great on that flared body.

Sorry I don't know what a "low bow" soft top is but it sits at windshield height and flows straight back until tub then falls off.
Tell me what external measurements I can give you to compare.

I built a platform inside tub and filled with 2-part foam. Then started carving from there. Now using plastic filler for final shaping and finishing.

I have one of the original Plasticon hard tops. I put it on my silver speedster. On the front, it clips on just like the folding top. On the back, I added new conncetors so it connects where the folding top is. You have to remove the entire folding top frame to run the hard top option. Hey, what do I care. I spent about $1200 on it and I never use it. And, I drive my speedsters a lot down here in Dallas. I also have a pair of the sliding plexiglass side curtains. Now, I'd use those with the folding tops if they fit right. I'd add that Larry's top is sexier. Though less head room. If you go to my picture folder you will see the hard top.

Alan, we're close, mine is 53 1/8.

Larry, that is a cool top, but I scrape my noggin on the edge of the soft top every time I get in and out, I'm afraid I'd be loosing scalp. But yours has a great outlaw look.