Has anyone ever installed a Porsche 6...

into a IM....
what would it take to convert a IM 4 to a IM 6? Been reading about these brilliant little 6s and the prices aren't that far off vs higher end built air cooled 4s.


http://www.motormeister.com/suz/914_6/914_6engines_4.htm

That $7k+ is into a 914 which already has a 901 5 spd transmission and 4 wheel disc brakes (which are easily swapped out for the 5 lug Porsche suspension). Adding the 5 spd trans and better brakes are a good $5k more. So for a conversion it isn't cost effective IMHO. Buying new it a difference of like $45k for 4 cylinder to $60k for 6 cylinder (probably).

motormeister?

they are the stuff of legends, and i don't mean that in a good way.
you will find some tales of woe on pelican parts and on roadfly.
do a little googling and get back to us later.

Louie, do yourself a favor if your are interested in 911 engines. Go to http://forums.pelicanparts.com/1-porsche-technical-forums/ and spend some quality time in the 911 technical and 911 engine rebuilding forums. If you are a car guy it will be fun, and it will give you lots of info about why a 911 6cyl. engine is a beautiful thing, and why it will cost you a fortune if you get a bad one. LIKE ONE "REBUILT" BY MOTORMEISTER! If you search those forums for that key word there are numerous discussions about the inferior quality and business practices of this company. As to the question of making an Intermeccanica that was originally built as a 4 cylinder VW running gear car into a 911 Porsche powered car, the cars are fundamentally different with respect to the suspension, transaxles,brakes etc. that while possible to do,it would be impractical. With the IM 911 powered cars, they only look like the VW running gear cars, but have a completely different undercarriage. But a much less expensive and quite nice conversion is to put a Subaru 2.5 liter engine in a VW powered IM. I know an owner who had this done in Southern California by Vintage Spyders. It was not a super expensive job, and was a very nice, quiet, fast car, great heat and airconditioning. A nice late model IM Roadster with a 2110 CC engine is a pretty solid performing car for California. Unless super high performance is your desire, a nice car for cruising SoCal can be had for less than half the 911 powered ones. The finish of the interior and paint job are the same quality.

Ten years ago, when I was specing out my car with John Steele, we explored the idea of flat six engine. John was agreeable to it, but suggested I do careful homework on supplying him an engine.

I visited "Black Forrest" in San Diego. The price of a rebuildable 2.4 or 2.7 liter engine (this was ten years ago) was pricy, but not insane. The labor to perform a major rebuild, should one be required, was pricy but not insane. Then they quoted me the price for all those neat little parts, each one engraved with a Porsche Part number, that I might possibly need. That's when it got insane!

My current Type four still looks good by any comparison, for a frequent driver.

When I was in the planning stages of my IM rebirth I looked closely at a Subie conversion. In the end, it seemed like a bit too much for my limited fabrication skills. I ended up going air cooled, and would have gone the Jake Raby (type four) route had I not already had a decent collection of quality type one high performance parts.

Louie,

You could convert a 4 cylinder IM to a 6 cylinder IM but the devil is in the details. First the 6 cylinder car starts with a heavier wall tube frame to take the extra stress of the weight and power.

Porsche built a 6 cylinder car and decided to offer a 4 cylinder not the other way around.

I had a big sticker shock but when you think about what the extra cost of a real IM-6 is all about you will understand.

You can get a base model quote from Henry and buy a good running 911 for $10K and there you go.

I have a wrecked 78 Targa, 95K original miles with a rebuilt 3.0 for $8,000. You have everything you need except a set of wheels.

Motormeister? RUN FAR AND FAST AS YOU CAN!!!!!!!!!!

Don't think I can get much clearer than that!

your money would probably be better invested at a casino table than spending it at mm.
ask angela.

I know what kind of work it is to re-invent a whole car, just to make a couple minor changes. I would have to agree; if you're not prepared for the detailed things to change, don't change the big ones.
I started with the engine. Then the gearbox. Then the rear suspension system. Then the brakes. Then the wiring. Then the front suspension, the steering, the fuel cell, the lights, the chassis modifications, the bodywork and ... then the brakes again.
I have a feeling you're headed down the same path.
Save the money, and wait for a better car than the one you think you can build to come along.
My $.02.

I put one in my SB car. I wouldn't do it again. Although if someone else (IM) did it, I'd love to have that kind of torque the six offers. The six is longer, heavier & much more expensive to fix or rebuild. Then there are the suspension issues to deal with. I ended up selling the car, less the engine. The six finally went into a 914 which was easier to convert from a 4 to a 6.

Louie,

Before you deal with Motor Meister, may I offer the following alternate suggestion?

Drink a gallon of drano, pour gasoline over your head, light yourself on fire, jump off a five story building onto broken cinder blocks, then roll yourself in rock salt.

It will be less painful by far.

angela

C'mon Angela, tell us how you REALLY feel.

I hope the #$%#$%% that owns the company gets syphillis.

angela

Angela---do not feel you have to hold back here among your friends!

Seriously--everytinme someone puts out a warning about a unscrupulous vender, merchant or whoever screwed them it's a service to the community.

Did anyone ever locate Wil Cashen?

A quick look through the "SHOPS" tab on the upper tool bar revealed not a word about any such scoundrel company?

Did I just hear the sound of... "bolt action ?"

David,

MotorMeister has consistently threatened/proceeded with litigation against any site that condems their crapmanship. They will not appear in the Shops tab. This is not something that Theron/Speedsterowners.com et al can EVER weigh in on.

I have literally been in a local foreign car shop when Motor Meister calls and asks for used exhaust valves (that the shop intended to discard as they were at the edge of/or out of spec). Been in the room, the shop owner put the guy on speaker phone.

Damn near the only time in my life I've been speechless.

If you or anyone at all would like to hear more, you are welcome to contact me off line and boy will you get the whole story.

There are many very good Porsche engine shops. Shops with talented people who understand their product, care about their customers, believe in good service and quality workmanship. These are the people that we shold be sending work to. Think John Walker's Workshop, Henry Schmidt, Injection Labs, etc. THOSE are the people who deserve to be in business and to stay in business in this economy.

angela

angela, you go girl!
i mean that literally and figuratively.

Funny how a company can steal pictures from a site, use them in their own descriptions and become hostil when they are challenged for those actions.
A situation is unfolding now.

Louie--you will find that several folks have tried a Porsche 6 in their Speedsters---mostly Intermecanicca cars. They are sexy. They are fast and they are the ne plus ultra.

But:

My Vintage with a Type IV has made 143 MPH on the dyno--which is a hell of a better way to see how fast it will go without me doing the driving! My Raby 4 cyl Type IV makes more power than the Porsche 914 SIX cyl engine so it ain't too shabby power-wise!

How fast do you want to go? How much faster is a 6 cyl Porsche engine than 143 MPH?

And:

The Type IV should provide 100,000 miles of driving with zero unscheduled maintenance (read breakdowns), and about 60,000 miles more than a souped up, thus stressed-out Type I loaded with tools for "unscheduled maintenance".

So:

For what I have in my engine I could have easily had a 6 cyl Porsche (or Subaru) but am very satisfied with what I choose. I have more torque than the race winning Carerra 356 engine that went into the high end Porsche Speedster---the metal ones. I was a pretty happy camper pulling into my garage after this year's 3,950 mile round trip to Morro Bay CA.

Something to consider.

email me at aandjcrosby and I'll answer any of your questions.

Bottom line;---No matter what engine you choose, you will have the most fun possible with yer clothes on!!

SPEEDSTERS RULE, whether they are powered by VW Bug 1600cc's or up to 3,000cc Porsche 911 engines. It's all good.

Just for the record, Jake? You're one of the REALLY good guys.

Keep that big brain pumping out the HP ideas, keep your good customer service, keep standing behind what you build and may you, and those like you PROSPER!!!!

angela

Angela,
Thanks for those comments.
Its easy to do the things we do and exceed the expectations of those who purchase from us when we LOVE what we do and where we do it!

I treat people in the same way that I'd expect to be treated if the roles were reversed.

That said, lets keep on topic! That six puts a lot weight behind the rear axle, which is something to consider in the handling department.

Jake

Though the Im-6 is designed for the -6 engine the weight is still there and still behind the rear axle.. Its not just a small difference in weight, its at least 140 pounds more weight than a TIV and 169 pounds more than a TI dependding upon which -6 engine one goes with..

That extra weight is even notable in a 914 with a mid-engine configuration.

Of course most people are never going to drive a Speedster hard enough to find the point where the extra weight is really going to matter.. Like most other things I think most people will buy the IM-6 to "one-up" their buddies.. Those are the guys who go home and cry behind closed doors when a -4 powered car passes them :-)

And it has a "look" and a "sound" that increases the erection times of purchasers and looks and sounds sell. (thank goodness my purchasers could care less about either of those)

Thanks for your comments about Jack's engine.. It wasn't built for maximum performance, primarily is had to be smooth and consistent.

Making HP is the easy part of my job, luckily few people need maximum HP and more and more are learning that these days.

Ahh... Jake my friend. You have now stepped into it.

I cannot think of a single IM-6 owner who bought their car to one up anyone and I know a BUNCH of them personally. For most IM-6 owners, the car was a commissioned hand-built piece of automotive art. Built with stunning balance, power and driveability. A 911-6 makes good HP numbers very easily. A bone-stock 3.2 motronic engine can be installed, tuned and wired by ME - a freakin' shade-tree mechanic. With exhaust and a Steve Wong Chip, look for a very solid 240 HP with a big fatty torque curve, perfect manners in traffic, and filter change maintenance with a valve adjustment at 30,000 miles. Nothing other than that. Looks, sounds, and drives flawlessly.

Now we all know that I am a huge fan of 911 engines, as well as a fan of your products. But Jake, if you and I are ever going to have a truthful conversation about HP, driveability, reliability, etc., then we both need to face a tough fact.

***TURBO SUBARU IS WHERE ITS AT FOR DOLLARS TO HP RATIO***

A turbo subie will chew the tail off any streetable TIV or 911 in the same chassis for less money than either the heavily built TIV or the hot-rod 911 engine.

angela

Angela, can you still delete that post?
It's affecting my denial.

Angela furgot to mention USEABLE HEAT too.
Pretty useful byproduct wouldnt you say ...

Every car hobbyist has a line in the sand, over which they won't step, because it offends some internal sense of order. For some, only an authentic 356 will do, for some an authentic 356 outlaw does the trick. For others like us, a replica makes sense, both aesthetically and financially.

Of course, authentic 356 owners have no monopoly on snobbishness, do they? Some replica owners sneer at anything but air-cooled, and that's fine with me.

I'm not a mechanical engineer by any means, and many if not most of the posters on this site have lots more automotive knowledge and experience than I do. However, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to compare data between Subi and VW/Porsche. Cost, reliability, availability of parts, stock hp options, bolt on availability to increase hp, etc., etc. Chip technology, fuel and hp mapping, ecu's are just some of the options available to Subi's. These are for the most part 4-cylinder opposed engines, after all, not in line 6's or V-8's. In addition, there are hundreds of Subi tuning shops, and thousands of hobbyists that are constantly stretching the boundaries of what works for the street, dd's, track, or some combo.

What is the average age of our air-cooled hobbyists? I know they're not ALL old geezers like me, but we are an aging group. Go to some of the Subi sites. These are kids, man, enthusiastic, sometimes broke, kids who want to go fast and love cars and Subi engines.

There will always be a dedicated group of air-cooled owners, and a few real masters of development like Jake. I applaud their dedication and skill. For my money, it's a no-brainer, and Subi makes sense. Then again, my line in the sand is WAAAAAAAY over there. Enoy your rides! We all have MUCH more in common in our love of cars than our few small points of disagreement.

Can't delete it, Cory, wouldn't even if I could.

Here's the deal, you can love anything you want, but you need to be honest with yourself. We're putting turbo subies in the speedstah projects (when we finally get around to them) because they are powerful, low maintenance, compact designs, run great bone-stock and even better with tuning, use OBDII diagnostics that any mechanic in the country can do plug-in diagnostics on. AND THEY ARE AFFORDABLE!

Each of us will build a car to our own passion - we will build what we love. If money were not an object, my dream cars are 911 based. When I dream about fast cars, they sound like air-cooled sixes. For others, it is an air-cooled four.

But there is no denying the lure of big horse power for cheap coupled with perfect driveability and easy diagnostics/repair - and that my friend, is what a Subaru is all about.

angela

My statement was a general statement about men and their toys and the fact that lots of people buy things to please others and help their ego.. This is the same in most any car hobby, not just the Porsche world.

I agree that dollars per HP the Turbo Subie can't be beat and I believe that over time the majority of replicars will use this foundation as it just makes sense.. The car is a replica anyway, so keeping the engine of aircooled descent isn't as much of a compromise to the vehicle.

With more and more parts for aircooled engines becoming NLA or turning to pure junk the Subaru conversion will become another retrofit that will keep the cars reliable. I'd much rather have a Japanese built Subaru engine as a Type 1 comprised of 95% Chinese junk.

For those who stay aircooled I feel the Type 4 engine is hard to beat from all angles, it does have a cost of admission that isn't cheap, but it provides a lot in return.

So before anyone takes this too far, I agree that the Subie is a platform that will do nothing except grow and probably take over the entire replicar market in the very near future. I've been a consultant for a new company that has impressed me with their business plan related to aircooled VW conversions to Subaru power.

We are working to couple the Suby to the first "VW Beetle Replicar" for the modern market.

OK time to jump in:

One word: HEAT

Another is: SOUND

The SSI heat exchangers make enough heat to drive you out of the car. The M&K muffler makes a glorious sound as your thrown back into the seat with 235 HP and 225 ft/lbs of touque.

As for overweight in the rear one of the ways the IM-6 is balanced better than a 911 is the motor and transmission are 3 inches forward of the normal relationship to the rear wheels. Very good balance.

Regarding engine management. You are right any shop can play with a Subaru OBDII. You can do the same thing with any air cooled 911 motor. Its called a 911 individual throttlebody kit. See: http://www.clewett.com/products/engnmgmt/emsys.htm#indivTB

It's only $5,795. Now I can map everything myself from my laptop.

To me the only downside is cost. If you have the money and I did then why would you complicate things with water cooling and extra electronics? I can fix anything on my car in my garage other than electronics. That"s why I'm running 40mm Webers.


KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid)

Dave

Preach it brutha Dave!!!

I backdated my heat when I put the SSI's and the M&K on, jeez does that heat crank!! If you've got that in your speedster you could pretty much drive around in shorts and a t shirt all winter.

As for the sound of a car - I guess I fall into the category of being some shallow poser type cuz I LOVE the sound of my car since putting the new exhaust on it. It may not make the car go that much faster but man it sure sounds frickin cool. As or the rest of the stuff, I passed on the uppity up in the HP department because I felt the 180ish the 3.0 puts out stock was plenty for the street and the way I currently drive the car. Maybe someday I'll yank the 3.0 and put a Subi in my 911 :)

As Jake mentioned, I beleive Subie powered speedsters are the future. I was surprised when Henry (Intermeccanica) went with a water cooled VW, instead of a Subie powerplant. I'm sure he had his reasons.
I can't comment on a Porsche flat six in a speedster, but I can, with fond memories, tell you that I loved the sound of a breathed-on 2.7 flat six in my 1970 VW pickup. 7000 rpm through a big, single Magnaflow muffler equaled pure heaven to my ears.
I agree with Dave on the heater. Even in near freezing temperatures I couldn't keep the heater wide open after a couple of miles-too damn hot! The downside was if the engine failed a rebuild was worth more than the truck. Still, to this day I'm sorry I sold it.
I agree that Subie turbos sound like crap. I do a number of track days during the Spring/Summer months, and there are usually a bunch of STIs at each event. I have yet to hear one, no matter what exhaust he's running, sound half decent, unless you like the fart-can sound.
They sound like crap, but boy, do they go. I can get through the corners as fast or faster, but when we hit the straight-a-ways it's point-by and good-bye.

Agreed........911 air cooled is big bucks but if you get 150K+ miles (not unheard of) out of the motor and other than oil changes and a check of the valves once in a while it evens out in the long run. There is the 30+ years of product development making the air cooled 911 motor pretty bullet proof and the knowledge base is huge.

Two oil coolers plumbed is far easier than watercooling any day of the week. Not to mention lighter and more compact.

Air cooled and a 15 gal fuel cell gives you a trunk as well. Yes all the stuff in the picture goes in the car. The green and silver bag behind the seats. Everything else in the trunk.

Dave
You know I'm a huge 911 fan, right? Got two of them here in the garage and two additional 911 engines on stands right now. I will own and drive an air-cooled 911 for as long as I'm able to drive.

Hate to tell you this, but the water-cool is pretty damned easy on a speedster. Picked up two Jeep Cherokee radiators complete with the a/c and cooling fans. They are only about 12" tall and fit in the nose of our two speedster projects, ahead of the suspension in the void. and still leave a trunk. They set me back a whopping $20 including the remote fill. Hell, Dave, I couldn't buy the fittings for two oil coolers for that price.

Really, we should go back to the original posters thoughts here. Can you retrofit a 911 engine in a speedster? The answer is YES, but to make a good conversion, you need to break out your thinking cap. Need to adjust as much as possible for the weight addition (move the mechanicals forward in the chassis) and upgrade some other bits such as spring rate etc. Yes, you can do it but it's not easy.

For the money on an existing speedster, go TIV to go faster. For the real handy person, go subaru and fab a cooling system. For the real handy person with some dough - yes, you can put a 911 in.

angela

Very well put Angela.

I'm assuming there is a HUGE difference in the chassis design of an IM4 vs an IM6 and to convert from one to the other would be HUGE money, even with a Motormiester engine ;)

Agreed,

Don't convert a T-1 or T-4 car to a 911 6. Start from scratch.

I still think water cooled Speedsters complicate things that need to remain simple.

That is what is so much fun with these cars. They are a different as the people that own them!

Cheers!