Headlight relay relocation

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Headlight relays are usually placed in (or near) the battery box to minimize the length of cable runs from the battery to the lights. That minimizes the electrical resistance in the light circuit, so brighter lights.

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I noticed a lot of cars don’t have any relays in the battery box area. Just wanted to clean up my battery box area. Satcho where are they putting the headlight relays?

Yeah, so "a lot of cars" don't have headlight relays.

Mine is right next to the battery, near the headlights, so everything is nice and tidy. You're free to do as you wish, but you'll be running primary power back under the dash, then back out to the headlights if you want to move it.

Mine are near the battery as well to for the reasons mentioned above.

I don't have headlight relays because I'm using a 6v OE VW light switch with good, heavy duty brass contacts. And also using LED headlight bulbs, which draw considerably less power.

I'd leave the relays right where they are, they are placed there for good reason, as mentioned by several posters above.

x2  I also use the 6v OE VW light switch with good, heavy duty brass contacts.... I'm using a 6v OE VW light switch with good, heavy duty brass contacts.

Just to further explain the usage of the old 6v switch:

P=V x I which means Power(in watts) equals Voltage times I(current in amperes).

Most halogen bulbs are 55/60 watts for low/high beam.

60 watts=12 volts x 5 amps. But back in the day 60 watts=6 volts x 10 amps.

The old switches are designed to carry twice the current of a 12v switch.

All day, every day.

Or in other words: 6v switch= "Lucas smoke prevention" LOL!

I had several of the cheap Chinese 12v switches. They melt.

I thought about getting waterproof relays and putting them on the back side of the battery box so they are under the car. I think I will leave them in the battery box. If anyone could post pics of how they have their relays mounted in the battery box I'd appreciate it. Thanks for all input and advice.

May not be useful in your case (I moved my battery into the nose and put air conditioning in the box). This is looking at the right side of the box from the nose. Red blob in foreground is battery disconnect. Next are relays for headlights, driving lights and fuel pump. The extra relay adds logic to turn the driving lights on anytime the engine is running (and fuel pump off when engine stops). Small fuse box is for AC, radio and spares. Good luck!

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A more spartan installation:

If all you're adding to the battery box is relays for the headlights, it doesn't have to be any more complicated than this. These relays have their own fuses incorporated.

The single dark red wire passes behind the battery and connects to the positive battery terminal.

An install like this keeps the relays and fuses and all crimp connections 'inside' the car, protected from the weather and easily inspected. I soldered and wrapped connections under the car.

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I LOVE those relays with the built-in fuses. Love 'em.

Got a link?

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Stan, those are cheapie Amazon specials, fabricated in lands far across the sea.

It's curious that as much as we whine about Chinese switchcraft and the inadequacy of their internals, these cheap relays seem to be pretty reliable, routinely handling lotsa amps without complaint. Maybe I'm lucky, but so far I've yet to have one fail (although I don't load them near their rated limits). Go figure.

I've lost the link for these, but a quick search on the big A should turn up dozens.

LATER EDIT:

It looks like these are the relays. The vendor is actually the Online LED Store, which I think is where a lot of the membership has been sourcing LED headlight bulbs and such, with good reports.

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@Sacto Mitch posted:

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Stan, those are cheapie Amazon specials, fabricated in lands far across the sea.

It's curious that as much as we whine about Chinese switchcraft and the inadequacy of their internals, these cheap relays seem to be pretty reliable, routinely handling lotsa amps without complaint. Maybe I'm lucky, but so far I've yet to have one fail (although I don't load them near their rated limits). Go figure.

Same experience with my cheap, Chinese, relays (like Mitch, I don't load them near their limits). I keep extra and a spare in the car, but I've never had a problem, yet.

@Sacto Mitch posted:

I soldered and wrapped connections under the car.

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I know you don't get much rain out there in California, but I still wouldn't recommend wrapping a soldered connection with tape under the car.

I really like the way your relays and battery look though.

Instead, use marine heat shrink on soldered connections. I like it because sealant oozes out and seals the ends of the heat shrink. I also like to ty-rap the soldered connections so they can't move or vibrate.

I'm not a fan of vinyl or cloth tape. The adhesive is a bear to deal with when you have to get back to it. Moisture also easily gets into wrapped harnesses.

Smoke gets trapped in there, too, just waiting to sneak out.

Especially if it’s a British car.

So here's what I'm working with. Has anyone used a junction post for the positive wires or a terminal block? I would like to remove the smaller wire off the terminals to give it a cleaner look.

@JB356SR posted:

So here's what I'm working with. Has anyone used a junction post for the positive wires or a terminal block? I would like to remove the smaller wire off the terminals to give it a cleaner look.

I have. There were a number of things connected to the positive terminal on the battery and it was difficult to use a terminal cover so I moved everything to a positive fuse box/terminal like in your picture. Now the only thing connected to the positive terminal is the large battery cable a significant sized wire from the battery to the fuse box. I also added the snap on/off cable clamps which are really nice.

@Robert M posted:

I have. There were a number of things connected to the positive terminal on the battery and it was difficult to use a terminal cover so I moved everything to a positive fuse box/terminal like in your picture. Now the only thing connected to the positive terminal is the large battery cable a significant sized wire from the battery to the fuse box. I also added the snap on/off cable clamps which are really nice.

Hi Robert, I just have a fuse block beside my relays. I picked up a new ATC style fuse block. I’m going to move the fuse block to give some more space between the battery.

Sacto...(and others that may be reading this)  I couldn't help notice the type of terminal you used to connect your battery cable to your battery.  They are a clever fix to some common problems but create more down the road. That type of mechanical connection between the cable and the terminal will double, perhaps triple, the amount of corrosion in that contact area. The dissimilarity between the three metals ( lead, copper, steel )will create a tremendous amount of electrolysis. Also there is a substantially increased amount of surface area to allow air to add to the corrosion.

The remedy is to buy a pre-made, soldered terminal/cable of the appropriate length. This eliminates all that mechanical connection and provides nearly a molecular bond between the copper cable and the lead terminal  eliminating most of the corrosion potential.  If the cable is too long, shorten it by cutting the other end and soldering on a new copper terminal.

In my 60 years as a "wing nut" playing with all sorts of vehicles, this one has never failed to cause me to shake my head.  I've seen many of these terminals build up big blue/green "cauliflowers" of corrosion such that they fail.   In any event,  they will loose conductivity.   In some cases you can't even tell because the corrosion is only under  that little strap on top and under the cable where it contacts the terminal. The few times I've came across this is when the owner was meticulous and cleaned the engine compartment regularly. They even cleaned that terminal with baking soda but this didn't stop the corrosion and the connection built up resistance such that it created an open circuit.  

I have seen grounding straps with mechanical connections do the same thing.  Several times on this forum there has been people recommending that they be checked for the very same reason. They LOOK good but you really can't see the corrosion.  I think it was Danny that recommended actually loosening those connections and checking for corrosion.  By virtually/only disturbing that connection may be just enough to fix the problem.  As I said, you normally can't see the corrosion.

Lastly,   use a "star" washer UNDER the terminal !  They bite in to both metals and insure a better mechanical connection.  PLUS,  they help to keep the connection from turning while you are tightening or loosening it.

Wow !!    All that from one photo about another subject !.......Bruce

You of course are right, Bruce. Clean it all, with a wire brush. Then use the grease designed to prevent corrosion.

I went out and bought a compound crimper for larger terminals, crimps 8 gauge down to 2 gauge.

I don't solder the larger stuff, I crimp. Use heat shrink(and don't forget to slide it over the cable FIRST). And I agree, if the cable is too long, shorten the other end and leave the battery terminal end alone.

Danny....I crimp too.  A good tight crimped mechanical connection then solder. To solder those big terminals I made up a tool that an old German guy taught me.  It's made from a hog ring plier with a shaft ring collar split in to halves welded to the jaws of the pliers. First I clamp the terminal in my vise with some small asbestos plates to insulate it from the vise jaws to eliminate heat transfer to my vice.  Before I crimp the terminal I put a generous amount of NON Acid soldering paste in the terminal and on the cable.  I heat up the two collars on the pliers to orange color with a Mapp torch and then clamp them around the terminal and hold there while it heats up enough to get the solder to melt into the terminal.  If my pliers are too big for the terminal (smaller wire size). I shim the terminal by wrapping a strip of aluminum foil around it enough times that it will have tight contact and the heat will transfer. I also make a cone out of the aluminum foil to wrap around the cable  (big end of cone away from the terminal). right down to the rim of the terminal to deflect heat from distorting/burning the cable insulation. As you say Danny, make sure you install a piece of heat shrink  or other suitable sleeve over the cable BEFORE you do any of the above !  This may cover up any burned insulation close to your solder joint   Ha Ha !!

Last...I have found that plain Vasoline works pretty good for coating battery terminals. Just a thin coat will do.  Since we all tinker with our cars a lot, a little routine cleaning and re-coat of this area is bound to be a good thing.

Last again....I see in some of the photo's where the wires go through the fiberglass and there is no rubber grommet protecting the wiring from chafing on the edge of the hole.  It's probably OK since it's not metal but if TWO wires chafe down to the bare wire, who knows what will be the result if they contact each other. It may be quite a long adventure to find that problem too ! My Speedster came like that so I installed a split grommet. If for no other reason than it looks better.....finished may be the word here but also a little safer.......Bruce

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Bruce, you are, of course, right about battery connections.

But this is a nine-year-old cable and connection that's never been cleaned. I've had it off a few times and it's just as clean on the insides (note this is the second battery, but the original cable and connector):

The rest of the story is that the car is always garaged, the battery compartment is pretty well protected, our average humidity is about four per cent, I never drive in the rain, and I live a pretty wholesome lifestyle, thinking mostly kind thoughts towards my fellow man.

Maybe more important is that this area, along with most of the rest of the car gets inspected pretty often. In this age of the 15,000-mile oil change and 'no tuneups for 100,000 miles', it's easy to forget what car maintenance meant in 1955.

Things broke or went 'out of whack' a lot, so if you didn't want to be stuck on the side of the road, it was up to you to pay attention to the state of affairs under the hood. Heck, just the other day, I topped up the air pressure in my spare tire.

Your connection will be pretty much bulletproof come hell or high snowfall. Mine, not so much.

I will add that I use the same connection on my sailboat batteries, which spend their whole lives in a dark, damp, corrosive marine environment. There, though, I clean to bare metal, tighten down, and coat the whole connection with a thick layer of white lithium grease to seal out air and moisture. The downside with that is that every time you break the connection, you have to clean off all the grease to squeaky clean metal again and then apply more grease. Fifteen years, and the diesel starts every time.

Again, though, your way is mo' better.

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I mentioned "grease to prevent corrosion" above but what I really meant was dielectric grease. It's made from silicone and will displace allowing metal-to-metal conductive contact. This way you don't have to clean it every time like ole Mitch does with the lithium grease. It is sometimes called "tune-up" grease, but is the same stuff.

Sacto........You and I live in Calif. so we do enjoy a better climate for cars.  Speedsters having the battery in a box up front in an environment not unlike a kitchen cupboard certainly helps to eliminate the caustic action of under the hood where the engine is.

Boats are a different story. Corrosion was and is a constant battle and if we don't want to get stranded out in the Pacific and have to wait for Vessel Assist to come to our rescue, we pay more attention to simple maintenance items like batteries and wiring. A chief Petty Officer I worked for years ago always said that "There's nothing in the world that a Sailor or Salt Water can't f_ _ _ up !"  After two Uniflite's and two Skipjack's I agree with him and you.  Constant vigilance !!

Speaking of newer cars, my 2017 Yukon is showing signs of corrosion at the battery terminal and not only there. There more connections around that battery than ever before and some of those are showing signs too so it will be baking soda and plastic brush time soon.  Sometimes I look at all that stuff under the hood, think about the 50 (or so) computers in and around the whole truck and just shut the hood,  check to be sure my insurance is paid up and maybe drive it till it stops.

The simplicity of our Speedsters and Spyder are, in fact, just joyfully simple.  I'm already starting to worry about the complexity of getting my Spyder with a Subaru engine and all the electronics required for it to run.  On the other hand, as you mentioned, newer cars can go longer and farther between maintenance. Or should !.......Bruce

I've seen a lot of those terminals Mitch (and I) use growing the kind of corrosion Bruce was talking about, but I've never had the insidious, maddening, frustrating, and downright diabolical issue of a cable made with a crimp and shrink-tube corroding in half inside the freaking shrink-tube (completely invisible to the casual observer) as I have with the "better" method.

I had an '02 Powestroke 7.3 van that left me stranded at least 10 time while we scoured the entire electrical system looking for the problem (I replaced both batteries in a parking lot one January day - replacing the second one required laying in the snow under a rocker panel and dropping the battery holder on my chest). All cables looked perfect, and had continuity. The positive (factory) terminal on the upper battery (the one with eleventy billion take-offs) was "almost" good - it looked and felt good, but when cut apart was 95% white powder. A battery terminal cost me no less than $2000, replacing both batteries, the starter, and eventually giving up and paying somebody  for almost a day's labor finding the stupid $2 terminal.

I had it happen on the premade grounding cable on the speedster as well. Same deal, but I cut it apart after it failed me the second time.

Invariably, you end up buying a battery (even if your tests OK with a toaster), because no matter what, the fancy battery checking tools will tell you any battery more than a week or so old is "weak".

The cheapie clamp-type terminals don't look sexy nor are they as good as a factory cable in theory - but at least you can see when they are failing.

That reminds me of my AC hose leak in the roadster under the dash. The hose that goes from the back engine bay to the front and under the rocker panel to finally end up under the dash.

Dx So the connector needs to be changed, I take it to an AC shop who of course wants to change the whole hose and both connectors because to cut it will make it shorter and his solution will be more complete.

I think about it and finally decided to get EzQuip tools and hose and I can do the work myself. To do this I have to have the Aluminum pipe at the engine cut and a new end male end welded so I can do the rest myself.

After I am finished all of this I have this thought, gee the guy could have just cut the existing hose put a new connector and simply welded a 2 inch extension to the connector... DUH...  

It always costs us to learn, in this case I learned that before you throw good money at things if you look at it more often the fix is a simple thing rather than throwing a complete new part etc etc.

We had a mirror leave us the other day and to replace, repaint was $900, we went to the recycle and got one for under $400 we installed it in 1 hour ourselves ..

@JB356SR

I'm using some Marine-style power distribution blocks in my car, both under the dash and back in the engine compartment.  I typically feed them with a 10 or 8 gauge fused main feed (some blocks have built-in fuses) and then fuse the leads that the block feeds if they need it.  

They're also very popular with the Mega-Watt car stereo crowd, especially when they're running boatloads of power amps.

Start here - You'll probably see what you need - Most have protective covers:

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=ele..._sb_ss_ts-doa-p_1_23

@aircooled posted:

Sacto........You and I live in Calif. so we do enjoy a better climate for cars.  Speedsters having the battery in a box up front in an environment not unlike a kitchen cupboard certainly helps to eliminate the caustic action of under the hood where the engine is.

Boats are a different story. Corrosion was and is a constant battle and if we don't want to get stranded out in the Pacific and have to wait for Vessel Assist to come to our rescue, we pay more attention to simple maintenance items like batteries and wiring. A chief Petty Officer I worked for years ago always said that "There's nothing in the world that a Sailor or Salt Water can't f_ _ _ up !"  After two Uniflite's and two Skipjack's I agree with him and you.  Constant vigilance !!

Speaking of newer cars, my 2017 Yukon is showing signs of corrosion at the battery terminal and not only there. There more connections around that battery than ever before and some of those are showing signs too so it will be baking soda and plastic brush time soon.  Sometimes I look at all that stuff under the hood, think about the 50 (or so) computers in and around the whole truck and just shut the hood,  check to be sure my insurance is paid up and maybe drive it till it stops.

The simplicity of our Speedsters and Spyder are, in fact, just joyfully simple.  I'm already starting to worry about the complexity of getting my Spyder with a Subaru engine and all the electronics required for it to run.  On the other hand, as you mentioned, newer cars can go longer and farther between maintenance. Or should !.......Bruce

Outside of the ECU, if is it a stock ECU, you can get the Code list of errors, if not then you need to get a code reader anyway and know what codes that custom ECU will give you.  They should also have something that indicates there is a code issue of course it can go into limp mode.  On my car I have felt limp mode once when I had installed a Custom pedal interface, that did not last long to say the least.

Then after my Cruise control wiring my cruise will not work if there is a code thrown so that gives me a heads up.  

Other than the K&N Filter and Mass Air flow sensor being dirty and giving me an issue it has been pretty painless to say the least and no carbs to adjust and no gaz smell .

Just about all Vintage Spyders have aftermarket ECUs with Subaru power. No codes will be thrown. No cruise control either.

Danny....What do you mean by "no codes will be thrown" ?  I'm pretty much a Greenhorn when it comes to ECU's n stuff.    I know that my Subaru engine came with a Stinger ECU.  I feel assured that these electronic measures to make engines run more efficiently in conjunction with fuel injection are not too hard to understand if you have good basic knowledge of how an engine works to produce power.  I'm sort of looking forward to getting into it.

Will need to buy some diagnostic equipment to get thru the learning curve ?  If so, what do you suggest ?.......Bruce

My stock ECU had the Cruise control program in the ECU which allowed me with the help of some good techs by looking at the schematic to have cruise control on it.

I am not sure if stinger has it do you know Danny?  On the other hand I think ATOM has the option.

It's not an OBD ECU, so no code reader. No codes.

Maybe a laptop and custom software, but not everyday production car stuff. That's for sure.

My Speeduino ECU uses Tunerstudio. There's a free version. I paid though as I feel I should pay for it. It's very powerful stuff and a lot of people WAY smarter than me designed and programmed and de-bugged it. The paid version also unlocks some cool features.

I also installed and programmed a bluetooth module in my ECU, making a wireless connection to my laptop OR phone(MSdroid app) a piece of cake.

I've no idea what program Stinger uses, but maybe something similar?

You'll need a laptop, a connection cable from Stinger, and TunerStudio.

Remember, to err is human, but to f*** up on a grand scale you need a computer (or a box full of Webber air correction jets and emulsion tubes).

Danny, does that ECU Bluetooth gizmo connect to the OBD port or right in to the ECU?

@Gordon Nichols posted:

Danny, does that ECU Bluetooth gizmo connect to the OBD port or right in to the ECU?

The ECU units that Danny and I use don't have OBD. The Bluetooth units connect to onboard serial ports.  You can then tune or log much more detailed engine info than OBD wirelessly.

I'll say this one more time for the slow kids(or the old guys) :

THERE IS NO OBD PORT ON aftermarket ECUs.

OBD=OE federalized production stuff.

@JMM (Michael) posted:

You'll need a laptop, a connection cable from Stinger, and TunerStudio.

Remember, to err is human, but to f*** up on a grand scale you need a computer (or a box full of Webber air correction jets and emulsion tubes).

Stinger uses MS(mega squirt) architecture, so maybe a Bluetooth serial board can be attached?

Danny wrote: "THERE IS NO OBD PORT ON aftermarket ECUs."

I honestly did not know that.  Kathy (mostly) and I (just a little) were involved with the Hamilton Standard Automotive OBD program starting around 1975.  They had their own proprietary system using their own sensors that hung from a cabling system attached to the open hood of a car.  Attach the hanging sensors to the engine and peripherals and it could spit out the relational parameters for about 150 different things going on under the hood.  For instance, it could detect low or high compression in one or more cylinders by noting the crankshaft position and comparing how much power the electric starter took to compress each cylinder.  It couldn't tell you the exact amount, but could show you all cylinder compression as a percentage against the average, showing those with low or high compression.  

Ham-Stan worked closely with CARB, SEMA and the EPA to set all of the standards that defined the OBD and OBDII systems in use today.

That system later became Ford's dealer-based OBD system with the sensors added during the car's build cycle.  The local dealers highly trained service techs plugged in their version of the Hamilton Standard diagnostic system scanner - roughly the size of a kitchen refrigerator laid on it's side and slow as sludge (remember, this was in, like, 1976 and there were only a few Integrated Circuits in it) into a Ford proprietary plug under the hood (later moved to under the dash to keep it from getting corroded).

Those Ham-Stan systems quickly saw competition from Sun Automotive Test Systems but it was still the wild west out there as many different auto manufacturers had many different systems/interfaces/dash plugs to contend with - All that settled down in the late 1980's as industry standards emerged.  The mid 1990's is when the smaller scanners started to appear (about big tablet size) and now we have palm-size or smaht phone scanners.

My tiny contribution to the Ham-Stan system was to find a better looking alternative to the "Octopus" of cables hanging under the hood.  I worked with a start-up company in Cambridge, MA to take an 10 foot length of mild steel U-channel and bend it in a sweeping arc to 90º while keeping the sides aligned, open side outward, so we could use it as a cable trough from the computer to the car's engine compartment to replace the "Octopus" of cables we once had.  It was an expensive alternative to the Octopus, but Ford wanted something that looked classier than a bunch of cables hanging under the hood (we also chromed it and put the Ford logo on it to class it up) and we found that the Octopus was susceptible to a ton of interfering electrical noise coming from a running engine and would screw up the diagnostic computer.  Using the Unistrut to run the cables to the engine, we could shield the cables and minimize all that noise so the computer wouldn't freak out all the time.  That MIT-based startup, way back then, is still in business, today - Unistrut.com