Heat

I am working on my Speedster this winter. I bought it in the summer. In Montreal so it won't be on the road until April. I am doing alot to the baby this winter. I need to know how to hook up a heatins system. How does this work? I know that it goes through the frame to the holes at the front on the side of the floor. I am looking for some pics, engine to the tubes. Any body can help? Thanks in advance...

Mike,

If you are starting from scratch in a place as cold as Montreal, you might want to just forget about the "though the frame" heating system. The problem is two fold-

First is the routing of the heated air through the frame. The frame is cold in the winter, and heat from the exchanger is going to transfer to the frame before it heats up your feet. The frame is a big heat sink, and steel conducts heat pretty well. If you run through the frame, your air better be pretty hot to start with.

Which brings us to the second problem- the air temperature. The problem with a stock VW style set-up using the engine fan (drawing engine bay air to supply the heater circuit), is that in cold (midwestern) weather when you need heat the most, your heat exchangers are being supplied with air that is cold- really cold. No matter how good the heat exchanger is (and they are not all equal), you are only going to get so much of a temperature rise from them. 0 deg air in isn't ever going to give you 100 deg air out, unless the air is moving very slowly (which it isn't), and even then the small volume of air wouldn't put a dent in the leaky cabin of a speedster.

I have a hardtop, and it is my mission to be able to drive this car when it is 10 deg outside. The first order of business is to seal up the air leaks- and there are many. If you can stop air infiltration into the cabin, you're body will create a reasonable amount of heat, and you're battle will be half over. The second step is to run non- heat conducting ducts from the heat exchangers into the cabin. Use PVC pipe or something- just not the frame rails. The last step is the final frontier for me- to figure an elegant way to run recirculated cabin air into the heat exchangers to be reheated. I'll need a fan, and to modify the exchangers, but I've got what I think is a good idea. I'll also need to be able to introduce some fresh air for de-fogging, but I think I've got that covered too.

Heating these cars is the hardest thing about enjoying them. Some guys just buy a 12v electric blanket, which is a good idea. George is putting a gasoline heater in his new car- a fantastic idea if you've got George's know-how and money. I thought about a gas heater, and still may someday, but I am so far over budget now- I have to draw the line somewhere. Good luck.

(Message Edited 1/11/2003 7:22:04 PM)

I had a gas heater in my 1970 Bug and loved it. With the old style, finned heater boxes and the gas heater I was never cold. I drove my Bug to the ski resort (Whistler) many times, driving in freezing temperatures. The only thing it didn't have was a blower fan for the windshield. With a gas heater and a hard top I'm sure George could drive his new IM all year long.
Ron

Ron,
A gas heater is the ultimate answer. However- I'm about 40 years old, and I dimly remember several VWs burning to the ground in my youth from malfunctioning gas heaters. I would imagine George is buying a new Espar, but its also going to cost him more money than most of us are willing to spend. In addition, the mounting of the heater, and its proximity to the Brazilian fuel tank make me nervous. Given all that- I wish him (and all of us non-CA guys) luck.

So Stan - I'm curious, where did you locate the non-conductive (PVC) heat tubes? Think I'm proceeding along the same line as you, but I can't figure how to get PVC or similar into the existing heater channels. Right now I'm just dumping heat through the parcel shelf floor and through tubes aimed forward. It's warmer but TACKY.
Bill

As far as the cars burning down to the ground, the southwind gas heaters had no safeguards or failsafes, where the ebershpacher(sp?) models had tons and tons of failsafes. If you can fit it, a BA4 from a type 4 works great (4k btu). Otherwise, any models from a bug or bus can be purchased rebuilt for around $500. It is important to get ahold of a manual and rebuild the heater (or have it rebuilt for you) and do the periodic maintainence (adjust the points, etc) to keep it happy. We've had a BA4 in a vw fastback, custom installed underneath the back seat for a year now with everyday use, with no problems whatsoever. Even with poor door seals, it's possible to toast yourself to a crisp in the dead of a Chicago winter. I have a BN2 in my squareback that also performs quite well, but doesn't channel into the ducting, so it's basically heat for the driver only.

Charles Navarro
LN Engineering

Espar is not a dangerous item, exhaust heat is vented overboard (outboard), the unit will be located a reasonable distance from the tank, and the trunk will be fresh-air vented.

George,
Do you think a Espar retrofit would be possible on a pan based car? I'd love to see yours when its complete. Please post pictures.

Stan, an Espar gas heater should retro-fit to any Porsche replica. The only problem is finding a place to mount the heat exchanger unit; the plumbing for hoses is pretty simple. The small units have three fan speeds, so you don't need an auxilliary fan for heat/defrost. Only problem with the Espar is that they are rather expensive.

George: Don't these heaters burn diesel? If so, how much will the tank hold and where to locate it?
BD
p.s. I just found the gas heater. I was looking at boat heaters.
BD

(Message Edited 1/13/2003 3:49:36 PM)

The Eberspacher heaters use gas. Think of them as small space heaters. Basically you would mount it betweent the gas tank and the cowling. The gas line tips taps into the gas tank where the float goes. You will need to cut an exhaust to exhaust the flame fumes. I'll post the link to a couple of eberspacher web manuals. I bought a really nice core unit, and planned to buy the rest of the pieces locally. It's just been too nice in Dallas to bother with it.

www.espar.com/htm/airheat.htm

By the way, You can find an add on thesamba.com for rebuilt units. That guys ok. I've been told to avoid the guy in Colorado.

(Message Edited 1/13/2003 5:43:12 PM)

George,
I'm aware they are expensive- that was part of my original point. How expensive is the question, and who is the distributer in the US?

Stan: Check out the link above espar.com they have a dist list. I found one here in harrisburg..A cummins dealer. Didnt get price yet.
BD

I have to agree with a post above, you get no heat after it is run through the frame. This idea might have worked in Miami, but not anywhere else. I chose to stick with the VW heat box, re-route via an insulated flexible hose connected to 2in PVC outside of the frame and under the door sills up to the front of the car. At that point the 2 in. is split with a 1 1/4 "Y" type fitting that connect to the defroster and toe space port. As set up, the window stays clear and I can drive in 20F and not need gloves |-)

2 improvements I'd like - real German type heat exchangers with the internal fins, some stuff out there does not have them (now I know) - recirculating air from inside the cabin and not the ice cold outside air mixed with the engine smells would help also.

I'd load some photos of this setup once the files area starts working again, or I could email them to anyone interested (?) - It's works pretty good and looks no different inside the car, all piping is underneath out of site and harms way. - Bob, my emial is - bimelliott@attbi.com -

Wow thanks everyone....the car is right now in pieces. I'm getting some body work done. Although it's in Montreal right now I am bringing it up to Quebec City where I live in April. It's going to be an April to October, latest Nov. Sunday drive car. A little heat for the feet late in the season since summer is HOT here. I thought the flow through system would work since the coldest (late season) might be 50 degrees. I would never think about driving this in cold.....brrrrr.......

Thanks for the great replies, I appreciate it.

Member photos: MySpeedster

Mike
FWIW I checked the temp when running through the "factory" heat ducts at roughly the same temp (50). I was showing a 30 deg rise over the ambient temp, like about 80 deg. f. With the air being blown out the duct, it was really hard to tell it was warmer. HTH

I live in Boston and in the process of driving my Convertible D every day all winter. The car gets warm enough to be comfortable after about 10 minutes. People look at me like I'm nuts but it is good in the snow and I love driving it so why limit it to only the warm months? Life is too short

David, right you are; life really is TOO SHORT, and when you get to be my age (65) it looks a Hell of a lot shorter. Like you I drive my "D" in the winter, usually with the top down, but I don't drive it in bad weather. I've always wondered why people buy these cars and then only put 500 to 1000 miles a year on them.

This coming Saturday my "D" goes to its new home (Karl) but when I get my new IM Speedster it too will be driven year-round.

Are there any experiences with 12V electric heaters ?
I'm not referring to the 12v ...$29.99 ones we see advertised as the only hot air provided is in the aditself !

Has anyone used a marine type electric heater or ????

Alan Merklin

Hi Alan,

I am using two electric heaters just under the dash. The heat output is not much and the current draw is high however they do heat your legs up a bit and they also circulate/reheat the inside cabin so they do help. I'm currently running only a 55amp alt and these heaters soak up almost all of that 55 amp output. I will have to go to a larger alt like the one Kymco sells, the super 75.

My wife likes the heater and that's enough for me to like it as I just want to drive the car more. I don't get it but women are almost always colder.

The heaters are "BACK SEAT HEAT" and are ceramic. They run off relays and can also be adjusted. One other nice thing is they fit perfectly under the dash with a radio in the middle. You cannot see them even iwhen sitting in the drivers seat. This system works OK but the car still doesn't put out incredible heat like a water cooled vehicle. These are mostly just boosters.

J-P

To make my wife happy I bought her a motorcycle heated vest and changed the end plug to fit in a cig. lighter socket. Works great. Only problem is that she now wants heated socks, pants and gloves!
Ron

Alan, check out www.vulcanelectric.com/finned_tubular_heaters.html.
You may be able to mount these units in an insulated tube, and use a blower to get the hot air into the cockpit.

I've gone through my second winter in Dallas and decided I don't need to install my Eberspacher B2 heater. I bought a really nice core unit off of ebay, and figured I'd find the salvage plumbing and switches for the rest of the system. I just never have done it, and frankly, in Dallas, the well-done heat duct system is adequate. (We have had 4 or 5 nights of below 32 degree weather here. It's now almost spring. If somebody wants this one I will let it go for like $50 plus shipping. I may put it on Samba in a week or so.

I was born and raised in Dallas (University Park) and while the winters are usually mild there can be some fairly long and bitter cold spells. Back in the 1970s in Dallas winters when I had my type 181 (Thing) the gas heater was a welcome option.