Pat Downs tells me that heat exchangers cannot be used with a Type 4 in a speedster. That's a real bummer. Any ideas? Any heat alternatives like an electric element?
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Back to Gordon's gas heater set up and a fan based system like the 911 in the Davis IM car might do you. The Davis car from IM had a cold air/ inside air mix valve to allow outside air in at your leisure fan forced for feet and window defrost. The gaz heater will take up some space though. Obviously no free lunch at this point.
One thing might help if Carey gave you more room by using the pie cuts on the rear of the car would it help to get heat exchangers in there?
Get an Espar or Webasto gasoline heater, if you want heat (you don't). Otherwise, just heat the seats and wear a coat.
I'm getting roll up windows and a hard top so I can drive year round. In my IM, obviously with a watercooled VW/Audi, I drove year round. In my 73 914 I drove year round. Don't you guys with Type 1 engines use heat exchangers?
If they can heat 2-1/2 Million truck sleeper cabs with something like a Webasto or Eberspacher heater, they can certainly heat your car - With both great heat AND amazing defrosters.
The cost of a Quality B2 (Benzine -German for gasoline) version or equivalent (the smallest one offered) should be under $1500 installed.
I have had great results with my 12 volt electric vest form Gerbing. I plug it into either my motorcycle or roadster whenever I want to get out for a ride when its cold. I'm having seat heaters put in my new Speedster build as well as using my vest if need be. I understand this may not help you if you're looking for a foot warmer or defroster.
Rode motorcycles for over 50 years including lots of sport touring. I agree heated suits are awesome. But I've got to have real forced air heat. Subaru would have been so much easier, and cheaper. But I really wanted a Porsche engine and tranny.
But the problem is solved. Carey responded to my email almost immediately. He's going to build me a custom exhaust with heat exchangers.
Sorry to over react but I got to have heat.
@550 Phil posted:Don't you guys with Type 1 engines use heat exchangers?
No.
I've got an Espar B2 and heated seats.
Curious why Pat said the T4 heat exchangers can't be used? I have them on my bus and the clearance is CRAZY (good)! They are quite a bit higher up than my A1 sidewinder.
They are bloody expensive though. I think a set of good german ones will run around $1K. I'm with Stan - heat the seats and wear a jacket.
The T4 used 4 different heater boxes. The 411/412 was a preheater (with not a lot of aluminum fins inside) which supplemented a B6 (?) gas heater. The 914 had two types and the 1.7/1.8 and 2.0 were slightly different). The early ones were too long and pointed the wrong direction (since engine was reversed in 914). I don't know much about the later ones which seemed to be used on the 912E too. T4 Bus heater boxes can be used and give good heat but they are heavy. Like on a T1 the inside pipe diameter is probably too small for a performance engine. With stock cooling or the Joe Cali conversion, you can retain the thermostat - not with DTM or 911 shroud though.
Here's bus ones - they would need modification to direct air.
These are 912E but assume they would be big $$$.
Someone with a Tangerine-type exhaust - made these - I can't find the photo I saved but it was like these made for a 6 cylinder.
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Somehow, I just gotta get a shop like Carey’s……
@550 Phil I’m running larger exhaust tubes on a T-1 so no heater boxes within budget. Like Stan, I run an Eberspacher/ESPAR BN2 heater. Mango Smoothie has a BN2 and Jack Crosby has an ESPAR (I think).
The toughest part is finding a place to put it in the car, but they’re pretty small - About the size of a SuperMan lunch box, now.
Well custom builder Carey saved the day. !!
My Webasto Airtop 2000 is 5" round and 12" long. And less than 10 pounds.
They are really small these days.
I'm with Phil. You need forced air heat, even if only for the defroster.
Thanks for the suggestions and education about the heating challenges with air cooled engines. I’m just going to have Pat build the engine without an exhaust system. I’ve got lots of time to think about whether I really need heat. I think I do. If a good gas heater costs over $1k I guess I can spend $1k for heat exchangers. Boy it’s really obvious why so many people are going water cooled. Obviously I did with my Spyder but that was for pure performance not heat. I just want to open the rear hood and see that 911 shroud and know that Porsche in some way has touched my power train. I’ll probably regret at some point not going with Subaru power and dependability but what the heck. By the time I get the car hopefully I’ll have more time on my hands to learn how to take care of an air/oil cooled engine. And it will be as close as I ever get to the real 356 P car experience.
There are diesel powered "gas" heaters too. Might be considered a little safer. Truckers and boaters use them.
@WOLFGANG posted:There are diesel powered "gas" heaters too. Might be considered a little safer. Truckers and boaters use them.
Do you have any actual experience, or is this just anecdotal fear? The old gas heaters were safe and reliable as long as they were kept clean. The new compact ones have more safeties than your home furnace, and are quite safe and reliable regardless the fuel source.
Phil, I got my Webasto from the Czech. Republic for $700 new. Espars are usually more money, but I'm very happy with the performance of mine. I got some great-looking aluminum defrost vent bezels from Carey. Works well with the gas heater.
Phil. Even with my 3.6 993 engine in my IM, there are times when I could use more heat. I have the original heat exchangers, but I don't always get the heat I need. If I were to do it again, I would have a blower fan set up in the cabin to draw more heat in. Air cooled cars just don't have the best heating systems. I used to freeze in my old VWs and Karmann Ghias.
I have a feeling that Phil will have the hardtop on a LOT. I think he'll be warm.
Or he'll drive his Spyder.
@Bob: IM S6 posted:Phil. Even with my 3.6 993 engine in my IM, there are times when I could use more heat. I have the original heat exchangers, but I don't always get the heat I need. If I were to do it again, I would have a blower fan set up in the cabin to draw more heat in. Air cooled cars just don't have the best heating systems. I used to freeze in my old VWs and Karmann Ghias.
It isn't too late to make some changes Bob, you probably could have IM design something and send it to your local tech for install but someone here might have some ideas as well.
@550 Phil posted:If a good gas heater costs over $1k I guess I can spend $1k for heat exchangers. Boy it’s really obvious why so many people are going water cooled.
Costs being equal, heck, even if it were more expensive, I'd go with a good gas/electric forced air heater. Especially so on a build as custom as this is going to be. On really cold days it can be a while before you get mediocre heat. As @Gordon Nichols has said several times, his is too hot and he had to dial it back a little bit. Sounds like the best option.
@550 Phil: Just a caution not to ignore that engine cooling and cabin heat are an even more integrated system on Type 4 than Type 1. The engine wants to get warm but not hot, and then stay that way, so you have to think before deleting the heat exchangers and calling it good. In my Vanagon experience one or two good variable speed hamster wheel blowers pushing, not pulling on the heat exchangers, and leak free ducting all the way to the footwells and defroster vents is the .. the .. hot tip.
My personal "speedster journey" has been mostly about working backward from things "a car has to have".
I bought my first one because of an article I saw in a Kit Car magazine in a supermarket I was servicing that said Kirk would build a Speedster with A/C. It was the first time I'd ever considered a Speedster, and I started thinking about it because of the A/C possibility. I just couldn't imagine spending more than $500 on a car that didn't have it.
I called, Kirk tried really hard to steer me away from it, and I ended up buying a Speedster on Ebay anyhow.
When I decided to orider a car in 2002, the reason I chose JPS was because he was going to work with Russ Rodriguez to fit a Glaspar hardtop to my car. He didn't, and the rest is history.
When I ordered my IM, I couldn't afford what I wanted. So I bought a "coach" without running gear, so that I could get an Espar gas heater installed, piped, and wired as part of the package. IMs (of course) come with rollup windows.
The thing is, even with good windows, a decent seal, and the gasoline heater - I don't really like driving the car "top up". It's loud, it's claustrophobic, and everything magical about it gets squeezed out. I don't think the gas heater has been fired in 5 years. My heater was over $1500 installed in 2005.
I'm not positing this for Phil. Phil has had a "D" replica before, so he knows how he'll use it. I'm posting this for all the guys from colder places who think, "if I had better weather protection and better heat, I'd drive this thing in December and March".
You won't. At least, not with the top up.
If you are more than 5'11" or so, over 55, and weigh more than 210 or so, getting in and out of the car with the top up is a pretty undignified proposition. Unless you line the entire car with dynomat sound insulation, it'll sound like you are living inside a snare drum to drive it like that anyhow.
If I were doing this again, I'd keep moving toward the "simplify" light. I'd forego the heat altogether. Rollup windows too. Maybe even a top. I'd heat the seats, get a tonneau, pack a rain shell and stocking cap, and put the car away the first time it dipped under 35*.
Turns out, Max Hoffmann wasn't a dummy. He knew that when these cars are the most "pure", they are also at their best.
If you want a nice, weathertight, 24/7/356 car, buy a Cayman. If you want a simple, light-weight rawboned sports-car, a Speedster or Spyder does pretty well.
@Robert M wrote: "On really cold days it can be a while before you get mediocre heat."
With the regular heater boxes, that's true.
On really cold days, like 30 - 35F outside, I start my car and back it out of the garage and let it idle for a minute or so to warm up as I get settled. While that's happening I've already started the gas heater so by the time I get to the end of the street (1/4 mile or so) I'm starting to get heat and the cockpit is warm (top up) in a few minutes. It is faster heating up than my water cooled car, and roughly the same amount of heat produced (and can be slightly more) once warmed up.
The modern Webasto/ESPAR heaters are all computer controlled and work even better than my 40-year-old BN2. They also have a bunch of safety controls that didn't exist back when the BN2 heaters were made.
Exactly my point, Gordon. Even the old Eberspachers are quite safe with the mechanical safeties they have.
Seriosly, we are all driving VERY unsafe vehicles that will burn at the drop of a hat. The addition of a slight chance of heater malfunction is not much since a carb backfire is MUCH more likely to happen many times over comparatively.
@Stan Galat posted:If you want a nice, weathertight, 24/7/356 car, buy a Cayman. If you want a simple, light-weight rawboned sports-car, a Speedster or Spyder does pretty well.
And comparatively, a Cayman is a razor blade with respect to most of what's been available in the last 10-15 years. They are small, light, and very agile with high levels of grip and compliance. I really enjoy mine, it's tossable, although at a much higher level than our usually-favored 50s engineering.
There was never any heat in a 356 or the VW upon which it was based. You could freeze to death and be expatiated in a Mississippi winter with the heat and burnt oil gasses that did make it into the cabin. Why would you think you would need heat in a plastic Porsche?
Because Phil has a) a wife, b) doesn't live in the deep south, c) had a Conv. D IM replica that he enjoyed, and d) because he can.
Why do I have heat/defrost in my Spyder? Same reasons, except c).
That brings up a good point. If you spring a leak in the fuel line(s) between your fuel pump (mechanical or electric) and carburetors on a T1 or T4 engine, there will be constant pressure behind it and it'll continuously spray quite a bit of fuel in a short amount of time til the pump stops. We're talking cupfulls of gas per minute.
The fuel system on a gas heater works on a much smaller scale. The fuel pump is a mechanical stroker and pumps a minuscule amount of fuel (a tiny drop per stroke) through a 1mm (1/16") ID fuel line each stroke, amounting to 5 - 6cc's per minute - That's like a teaspoon full per minute or close to one stroke of a carburetor accelerator pump - per minute!. There is no "float bowl" or anything to store fuel in the heater. Fuel comes in the 1mm ID fuel line, goes right through a teeny-tiny jet and sprays into the combustion chamber. If it gets flooded (it can happen) and then ignites it can backfire and make a lot of noise and wake you up, but that's it.
Of all the weird-a$$ stuff I've ever worked on or built (including a wood-bodied Dune Buggy in my teens), my BN2 is probably the safest (once I got to know what it does). I've even tried to do some dumb stuff with it to see what happens and it takes care of itself (and me!) with it's safety bits.
You are correct, @Gordon Nichols. I believe the gas heaters draw about 3-4 ounces PER HOUR of use. Certainly not a lot considering the heat they put out.
There was never any heat in a 356 or the VW upon which it was based. You could freeze to death and be expatiated in a Mississippi winter with the heat and burnt oil gasses that did make it into the cabin. Why would you think you would need heat in a plastic Porsche?
Isn't that the truth, the smells of Aircooled cars in the winter weather it was the heat exchangers or the carb/gas smell and or the gas tank vent smell or the Gas heater it certainly was primitive in my 1969 vw beetle, and my 1974 gold bug. Glad we went to water cooled diesels rabbits in 1979 with a 5 speed. The rabbits were faster than the golfs by a hare.
I see what you did there, Ray...(as he hops away quietly)
In my IM convertible D I drove all winter with the hard top on unless there was salt in the road. I once drove 1.5 hours to the outer banks in a north easter and didn’t get a drop of water in the car. But that was a water cooled IM. Do I think that this car will heat at well as my IM. No. Do I think that it will be as water tight as my IM. Probably not. But it will be a badass Outlaw. And it will be completely of my imagination. And unfortunately my used IM was never that for me. I’m just trying to make it as every day useable, like my IM, as I can.
That made me think of this story.
There once was a man who accidentally ran over a rabbit. He stops and gets out and another driver gets out and they both look at the rabbit who is lying lifeless in the middle of the road. The other driver says wait... he runs to the back of his car and get a can and comes back and proceeds to spray the rabbit with this spray can. Suddenly the rabbit gets up hops away and stops 10 feet away and turns and waves at the two men who are stunned. Then he hops away.... stopping again 10 feet away and turning and waving.
The driver who ran over the rabbit says:" hey what was in that can?
The man gives him the can... he reads " Hair restorer with permanent wave. 
@550 Phil posted:In my IM convertible D I drove all winter with the hard top on unless there was salt in the road. I once drove 1.5 hours to the outer banks in a north easter and didn’t get a drop of water in the car. But that was a water cooled IM. Do I think that this car will heat at well as my IM. No. Do I think that it will be as water tight as my IM. Probably not. But it will be a badass Outlaw. And it will be completely of my imagination. And unfortunately my used IM was never that for me. I’m just trying to make it as every day useable, like my IM, as I can.
I think your doing the right thing Phil, your close to your builder's location which is a big thing IMO, he is open to working with you to get your vision fleshed out and while the water sealing of the vehicle may be somewhat of a challenge, even IM's have some issues at the window edge in a big downpour.
As far as getting sufficient heat, I would really go crazy with sound proofing and insulation in floors, doors etc and on the front firewall area in a normal car, make sure you have a padded blanket.
Then, make sure the door seals do not allow air in the cabin.
All in all insulating it will be key to reducing your need of heat and soundproofing will give your ears a break from being in the drum kit, with a hardtop.
P.S. both of us sold our old IM's at todays prices we could have made a few dollars
I had a '57 bug in '66 that I drove about 15 miles to college in NJ. By time I parked it had a 4" area on windshield that was clear and I smelled like I had operated a chain saw all day long. Later had a '72 VW T4 bus that we used for ski trips. Installed a Coleman propane catalytic heater in back area. Even with windows cracked - the moisture build up was increditable - but it heated up the big box. Made a pit stop one time and a friend threw his down filled jacket in van as we left to pee. Came back and jacket was smoldering mess of nylon and goose down feathers. Drove the next 2 hours with the windows down!
In my experience with the CMC that I built and from what I've heard about older VS Pan-Based cars in general, the biggest problem to deal with for any heat version is....
Cabin air leaks
Many of these cars leak air like sieves.
I've sealed my CMC up pretty well, but I still get some air incursion from the opening around the e-brake lever (which I've never found the source of), at the rear of the passenger side window (I know how to fix that but inspiration hasn't moved me to make a longer side window, yet) and a small one behind the seats on top of the tunnel (I'm gonna fix that one with a can of spray foam insulation in the Spring).
Seal up everything as best you can while building it and heating the interior space will be one helluva lot easier, no matter the heat source.
@WOLFGANG: In fairness to the bug, that was before heat exchangers, when your heated air had gone right past the cylinder fins, crankcase sides, and pushrod tubes and any oil leaks thereto appertaining. "Fresh air" heat exchangers started in 63 I think. My 56 bug had a 67 engine and no problem. I didn't know how to fix broken heater cables, so I just wired the heat exchanger flaps open in the late fall and shut in the spring.
Didn't anyone else drive with a credit card in hand to use as a mobile windshield defroster? Scrape the inside frost off as you drive 