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I have a CMC speedster that I placed new weber carbs on to stop the issue of backfiring and other issues. However, I have experienced number one cylinder having the plug tip flattened on two occasions causing an obvious non firing of the cylinder and excess fuel into the exhaust. Any ideas as to why the plug tips are flattening? I have used the recommended plugs that are the same number and reach as my previous set. It is only on number one cylinder. I have used a light to probe in the piston and see nothing that is loose or protruding. Any suggestions?

 

Thank you

 

Renfrance

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I think something got into the cylinder,washer,nut,screw, better get it out befor it takes out some other parts on a date.the spark plugs are nowhere neer the piston unless somebody milled about .200" off the heads (type 1vw) you do need to see if the head takes a short1/2" thread reach plug or a 3/4" thread reach plug. you may have something imbeaded into the chamber or the piston that is coming loose&closing the plug then re entering the head or piston getting stuck again.fix it or it ill fix you.

i'm with Mark - if the plugs are the stock (correct) length, then your heads must be uber milled and you must be running a very tight deck.

 

do you have any idea what your compression is?

 

backfiring - what kind?  popping, or banging?  banging is timing. popping is carbs.  you said you put on new carbs - what size, what is your altitude (where you lve) and what is the jetting on the carbs?

 

if i had to guess, i'd say your plus were not ciorrect length and your new carbs had too small idles.

I bought a usb camera off ebay for $16.00 hat will fit dwn the intake or the sparking bolt hole to have a look, also harberfreight has a endo scope or what ever you call it for about $70.00 add the 20% coupon it's a cheep handy item to have, you could even then start your own proctolligy dept!!!, just please dont run it any moretill you get out what ever is in there, it will effup the head, the piston, the rod,the crank the case& your wallet it is extreamly easy for stuff to fall in there when you have the intake off, could be a washer,nut,tin screw, or even a tiny rock. if you have a shop vac you can empt it so you knoe nothing is in there(vac) and then turn the motor over till the exhaust valve is open(valve cover off the valves on the end is the exhaust). and then suck through the sparking bolt hole.  DO NOT DO IT WITH THE INTAKE VALVE OPEN!!!!! THAT WILL PULL THROUGH THE CARBS&FUEL WITH THE AIR GOING THROUGH THE SHOP VAC WILL BE LIKE A JET ENGINE WHEN IT IGNITED FROM THE MOTOR BRUSHES SPARKING.and KABOOM!!! NO MORE SHOP VAC, NO MORE 356, NO MORE GRAGE, NO MORE YOU!!! got it?? then you can check the shop vac to see if it pulled any thing out. if you try to blow it through the exhaust you will never know if it went through or not. the magnetic probe can work but it,s hard to get it everywhere in there and the cylinder is iron so it will atract to it. you could also have a seat coming appart, but I doubt it unless it had a major vac leek&ran leen witch can super heat the head and drop a seat or break the piston rings and they will end up in the cylinder&chamber too. getter done.if you were hear I would give you a hand with it.

I'm not yet convinced that you have any foreign object in there.  A small, flat washer, maybe, but I'm still not convinced because anything in there should be accompanied with a lot of clicking or banging or other awful, mechanical sounds.

 

I had this happen to a friend sometime back in the 1960's (yeah, I'm that old...get over it) and this is what we did:

 

1.) remove the offending plug

 

2.) get a 12" welding rod or piece of coat hanger - make sure it's straight.

 

3.) get a 30mm box wrench (please don't use pliers or a crescent wrench - it just screws up the crankshaft pulley) with which to turn the engine over by turning the crankshaft at the pulley.

 

4.) gently put the welding rod down into the plug hole until it bottoms out.  Keep gently holding onto it while yourself or a friend slowly turns the engine over in a clockwise direction (FOR HEAVEN'S SAKE, MAKE SURE THE IGNITION IS OFF!)

 

5.) you'll feel the wire going up or down.  Keep turning it over slowly until the wire hits the top of the stroke and starts back down, then move the wrench slowly back and forth to find the top of the stroke where the wire is as high as it can get.

 

6.) reach in and make a "sharpie" mark on the welding rod exactly where the outside of the plug hole is on the welding rod.

 

7.). Remove the welding rod and write down the dimension from the end of the rod to the bottom of that mark - do this carefully for accuracy.  This will eventually give you your head to piston clearance (Patience!)

 

8.) Turn the welding rod around and bend the last 1/4" at a 90° angle.  Not 85.5°, not 92.7°, but a straight 90°

 

9.) Turn the engine over 1/4 turn or so and insert the bent end of the welding rod into the hole far enough to turn it a bit and catch the inside of the head.  Hold onto the rod, reach over and put a "sharpie" mark on the rod where the outside of the head touches it.  

 

10.) Remove the rod and measure from the inside of the bend to the inside of the mark you just made and write it down - that is the thickness of the head which should, BTW, be about the length of your plug threads, but we'll get to that.

 

Now for the good part:  Subtract that last dimension from the first one you took to see the difference.  That is the space between the top of the piston and the inside bottom of your head.  

 

10a.) Now, get your suspect plug and re-insert it as you had it originally, torquing it to the proper spec.  Pick a random spot on the plug (I always use the top of the socket hex because it is easy to see/get to) and measure from the outside head surface (where the plug goes in) to that top of the hex and write that down as a reference.  If it's difficult to get a small scale down in there, just use the un-bent end of the welding rod and mark it (Use a different color sharpie).

 

11.) Remove the plug and measure from that top of the hex (which you just referenced - use the same spot) to the bottom of the plug electrode and write that down.  Subtract the shorter length from the longer - that is the depth of the plug that protrudes into the chamber.

 

If the protrusion length is the same as the chamber height clearance, you have a mechanical interference (the plug protrudes too far into the chamber.  There are two things I would consider:  a.) Make sure the plug has the proper crush washer on it - not a re-used one, but a new one, crushed to the proper torque or;

b.) get a shorter reach plug.  To consider this, I would look at the available chamber space, how thick the head is and then find a plug with the proper thread length to position the electrode ground tip in the middle or top half of the space.  I would have enough clearance to never hit.  I would then swap out the other plugs with the same type, too.

 

Only if I found adequate clearance to not interfere would I then look for something inside the cylinder.  You could, of course, check your other cylinders this same way, just to see if they are all the same.

If you DO decide that something is in there, I haven't had a lot of luck with magnets.  It'll have to be a small one to get through the hole and then bend down to get whatever is sitting presumably at the bottom of the cylinder.  You can play with turning the crank to get the piston to push whatever is in there towards the top of the stroke and then try a length of vinyl tubing connected to a vacuum cleaner - just insert it into the plug hole and move it around to see if it catches something and, hopefully, hangs on to it while getting it through the hole. Not impossible, but not easy to do, either.  

 

Sears has a mechanic's magnet that's about 3/16" diameter and the working end, after the ball/socket coupling, is about 2" long.  If the piston was at the bottom of the stroke you could get it in there and then bring the piston up closer to the top to push anything up so the magnet, angled down to the bottom of the cylinder might, just might, catch whatever is in there.  Then run the piston back down to regain clearance and gently pull the magnet out.  That's the best I can come up with.

 

Good Luck....   Gn

I dont see any of that telling you the head to piston clerance, the spark plug dosent thread straigh into the head toward the piston. I do not think it is possiable to screw a 3/4" plugh in farenough in a 1/2"head to get above the chamber, contact the valves possiably.( remember the valves are going upward& the sparking bolt is going down ward and it is very close to being centered between the valves just offset back a bit. just keep looking for somethen in there,Ive even had a peice of air cleaner base end up in the chamber of my 1874 when I pulled it appart to freshen it &upsize it to 2028, there was a peice of chromed steel off the aircleaner base.just laying in there, it must of just come off when I drove the car back to the shop to pull the motor.no marks at all& very little carbon fog on it. and I had about .033" deck clearance.if it had turned sideways it would of been imbeded in the piston or head. hey stuff hapens, you may never know what or where it came from.or you may just find it&know for sure.I dont like leaving any thing to chance.as I recall chance was jonny quest or some other cartoon kids  dog,might of been a movie too, and you dont want to get dogbit.

  yes you can use the coathanger to determan the plug depth needed.

No it wont be near the valves they are clear of it . If it were me Id pull the engine and just pull the one head  and also re check that plug while the head is off and see if its sticking way out into the combustion chamber  , Telling me you have the long reach plug and not the right  shorter threaded one in there . If  all that  checks out.  then your in deeper Doo Doo .. check the wrist pin and the connectin rod on number one for loseness. Id suspect a spun bearing on a rod, or a lose rod . ther by confirming a total rebuild    Deep Deep  doo doo.

 

There is one other remote  posability the cylinder deck height could be off when it was built and as it broke in the piston started to make contact     if every thing checks out good  and nothing is damaged id just put a extra  o,10 thou shim under al 4 clynders  to raise the deck.

 

  Also you need a good pair of skinny vicegrip plyers to grab the case studs  so they DONT move as you break tork on the heads you can avoid a case saver redo if your careful and lucky. also know that they make a repair stud for that if you still lose one or 2 of them  when you retork the heads at the end

 

If your real good with a mike  check all 4 TDC decks  and only add what you need on the cylinders you need it on to make them all the same,  Machine shops have been known to get it wrong  also.. tha is something any good builder check as he puts one together to  make compresson balanced.

 

Last edited by oldyeler

Results on what caused the flattened spark plug tip was diagnosed using an endoscope. Found three pieces of metal that may have been a screw or the screw top of a spark plug. We used a magnets to retrieve the pieces. Piston, cylinder and valves looked unharmed .

 

thanks to all who offered suggestions.

 

renfrance (Roger  Francis)

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