Help with Lane's oil leak

OK, I'll be the first to admit that I've been driving back from New England for the past day and a half and may be more than a little brain dead, but I thought I would post a question here to see what comes up for responses.

First, the problem: Lane has been chasing an oil leak on his engine since he got the car. He has, I believe, eliminated anything coming from the distributor, it's housing, it's mounting location, the oil sender and anything else in that locale.

He also believes he has eliminated the oil cooling tower, but I'm still suspicious of that AND have a way to test it on the car, so I'll be looking at that (again).

The leak seems to be on the top half of the case, so we may be suspecting one of the smaller, 8mm, case bolts and/or the top seam. The common resolution there is to simply re-torque the case bolts to see if that cures it, but I'm wondering if anyone has had a small leak right at a case bolt and been able to cure it without splitting and re-sealing the case? What I'm thinking is that he may have a small leak at the seam right where a case bolt goes through. If re-torquing or slightly over-torquing doesn't help, and it looks as if the leak is in the bolt holes, then the only thing I've tried (with limited success, I'll admit) is removing the bolt, filling the entire hole with copper RTV, then slowly spinning the bolt in to distribute the RTV and torquing the bolt. Sometimes it works, sometimes not.

Anybody got a better idea??

Thanks, gn (and Lane, too!)

Gordon,
... the old school of thought is not to re-torque case bolts, this may increase the "crush" on the mains, we know this "aint" good karma.

I wonder if a dab of some type of sealer on each bolt may be of help?

Another thought is to clean and dry the motor, use a rubber bulb thingy and lightly coat the motor with baby powder or flour then fire it up and check for a leak. ~Alan

Did the flour thing, and thought I'd proven it was the cooling tower. Wrong! I removed the shroud and found no traces of oil around the tower, but I replaced the o-rings anyway. No change. I put a bunch of painter's masking tape around the shroud/tin seams to eliminate oil coming up from inside the tins, and wrapped the base of the distributor with a paper shop rag, zip-tying it in place, and then drove around for a while. Plenty of oil showed up on the top of the case, but none came from either of the locations that I previously thought were likely. One of the things that appears to be making this difficult is that the oil gets slung around, making its point of origin hard to determine.

It's not a major oil loss, but it makes things messy. I kinda hate to open up the engine, because it's all greasy.

Was the internal oil cooler coated with oil or did it have traces of oil anywhere??? The reason I ask is I've seen oil coolers with tiny pin hole leaks that just ooze oil and make a mess.

Maybe try a temporary fix/test with a "bead" of plasticine modeling clay pressed along the seam at the top of the case halves then try a short drive.

Maybe?

The oil cooler was completely clean, as was the inside of the shroud except for a general greasy film. The cooler, though, had nothing on it at all.

One other possibility that's been suggested is that I may need to re-torque the head bolts as it may be leaking between the barrels and the case on the driver's side. I hope that's not it, as the only apparent way to get to the upper head bolts it to drop the engine and remove the tins. I simply don't have the facilities to do that. My experiment with the tape appears to point in a different direction anyway (whew!).

TC - Not a bad idea.

Shoulda asked on the earlier post - What's "plasticine modeling clay", and where can I get it?

Lane, try Mcmaster Carr....

Depending on the configuration of your engine compartment, you can remove the intake manifolds, remove the screw on the side of the tin where it attaches to the fan shroud and lift the upper cylinder tin away from the engine.

To get to the lower 4 nuts/studs, you'll have to remove the rocker assembly.

Larry:

That's what I was thinking, too. Then we'll be able to see whether there's a leak at the base of the barrels or not. With that, though, I would expect the fan airflow to blow the oil down, and Lane's saying that it's up towards the top of the case, so I suspect a top case seam bolt, but we'll see. If it's a barrel base leak, I can deal with that, especially with the tin off, with the engine in the car. I've looked at it, though, and it's coming out under the base of the shroud, above and slightly to the left of the oil sender port. If it's squirting upwards from the barrel base, the fan might push it over and out towards the rear of the engine where it's then visible.

What I'd like to do is get all of the upper tin and fan shroud off, wipe the case down with soft paper towels, dust it with powder, then start it up and run it briskly for 30 - 60 seconds and see where the heck it's leaking without the fan blowing it all around. I'm thinking both internal splash and internal pressure is forcing it out, all we have to do is find out WHERE. THEN we can deal with stopping it. Right now, it's been hard to even find it.

gn

The first thought is that the fan will blow air "down" however, that's not the case. Air is swirling around in there and it could easily slosh oil around. The other possibility exists that the oil cooler and or mount or gaskets are to blame even though Lane changed the gaskets and inspected the cooler, but, you guys are 3,000 miles away and I'm just guessing

Progress report: I removed the shroud and associated stuff before Gordon got here today, and cleaned it up a bit (mistake). Had I left it messy, it might have provided G-dwag with some evidence on the oil path - or it might not have. We ran the engine, revving it up to 2500-3000 a few times, for about 2-3 minutes, watching the oil temp gauge. Not a sign of a leak anywhere (GRRRR!).

I then showed Gordon an oddity that I had no explanation for - there is a large quantity of oil on the underside of the alternator and the top of the pedestal. After scratching our heads for a while, we also noticed a small hole (about 0.5" diameter) in the metal plate that attached the alternator to the shroud. This is located directly under the alternator. Further study revealed oil on the inside of that plate. We looked at the path of the oil and a dim light began to dawn. Ignoring the lack of source for a moment, if there was oil between the pedestal and alternator, it could enter that hole, be blown down and to the left, and land on virtually every surface that was getting coated. We now have a good possibility for explaining the dispersal of the oil, but not it's source. After a bit, we began to believe that the pedestal itself may be porous, and could be leaking into that area. It's a cast piece from VW Brazil, with a machined surface for the alternator to sit on. We noticed some pits in the surface, but saw no oil oozing; however, we had not revved it as high as I do when driving.

So that's where we are. Right now I plan to replace the pedestal and see if that fixes it. Wish me luck - and thanks, Gordon!

By jove, you might be on to something!

"if there was oil between the pedestal and alternator, it could enter that hole . . . "

Not likely, the air from the cooling fan would be blowing like mad OUT of that hole. If there is oil inside that hole, hence inside the fan shroud, there's a pretty good chance that your oil cooler is leaking. Either where it mounts to the case or where the cooler mounts to the bracket or within the cooler itself.

For oil to get between the alt and the pedestal, there would have to be a fracture between the oil filler path and the hollow area beneath the alt. you should have a paper gasket between the pedestal and the alt. as well. These originally acted as "shims" and also help quiet things down just a bit.

Oh and that hole is supposed to have a black plastic spark plug wire holder plugged into it.

Lane/Gordon , after I got off the phone with you today I sorta found your oil leak in my speedster. Decided to add gas and give it it's first crank, set the dizzy TDC so it would fire right off which it did right... only to have a good amount of oil shoot out of a cracked tube on a new Mesa oil cooler, not so good of a Haz Mat site. ~Alan

Hmmm...

Well, we have once-and-for-all eliminated the oil cooler with today's experiment, so I'm confident that isn't it. There is no oil at all around it, and the inside of the shroud is much drier and cleaner than the area outside. What's the purpose of the hole I mentioned? I'll find a plug for it, but I am curious about its purpose.

I just remembered one more thing - If there was oil blowing OUT of the hole, you'd think it would be all over the back of the pedestal, which was clean. This is really a weird one.

Let me tell you, that oil cooler on Lane's car is NOT the culprit. The engine was cold/ambient at around 70F when we started it up, without the fan shroud installed, so the oil pressure would have been high enough to weep from the cooler if it was ever going to and.....nothing, anywhere around the cooler. In fact, nothing anywhere on the engine after running it around 2500-3200 rpm for 2+ minutes.

Tom wrote:
"if there was oil between the pedestal and alternator, it could enter that hole . . .

Not likely, the air from the cooling fan would be blowing like mad OUT of that hole."

I thought that at first, too, but there looks like a wide-ish oil trail inside the fan backplate and below the hole, but not outside. Secondly, there is a small, triangular, baffle inside and part of the fan backplate just beyond that hole forming a captive cavity behind the hole, so it's not open to the full fan pressure. I don't know what pressure would be in that small space, but it wouldn't be much, and may, in fact, be a partial vacuum which would divert anything coming in that hole right down towards the case. I have NO idea why the baffle is there, but now that Lane mentions putting a plug wire holder in the hole there, I checked mine and, sure enough, that's what's supposed to be there! That doesn't explain what the baffle is for behind that hole, so I'm hoping others can shed light onto that. Maybe a simple precaution for not having a plug wire holder in there??


"If there is oil inside that hole, hence inside the fan shroud, there's a pretty good chance that your oil cooler is leaking. Either where it mounts to the case or where the cooler mounts to the bracket or within the cooler itself."

Negatory, good buddy.....no oil anywhere near the oil cooler or it's mount. The oil wetness starts on the right side of the centerline of the case inside the shroud, and is blown to the left (Driver's) side. You can see the trail inside the shroud, starting inside that little baffle area and continuing down the shroud beyond the fan backplate. The rest of the shroud inside is relatively dry.

"For oil to get between the alt and the pedestal, there would have to be a fracture between the oil filler path and the hollow area beneath the alt. you should have a paper gasket between the pedestal and the alt. as well. These originally acted as "shims" and also help quiet things down just a bit."

You're right about the potential for a fracture. I couldn't see an evident one, but I wonder what gets stressed when the alternator clamp is tightened and the fan belt is tightened? Maybe that is enough to cause a fracture to open somewhere under the alternator, or maybe the casting is porous under there and simply leaks as oil gets thrown around within the pedestal. Whatever....the underside of the alternator was WET with oil. It can only get there if it's coming UP through the casting. BTW: While the paper gasket under the alternator makes sense, I can't recall ever seeing one. Under the circumstances, maybe a piece of inner tube would be prudent ;>)

"Oh and that hole is supposed to have a black plastic spark plug wire holder plugged into it."

Got'cha!

Lane! Put a plug in it until you get a proper plug wire holder at Carlisle!! And order that new pedestal!!!!

Progress report: No joy. I put it back together yesterday with an original German VW pedestal, and it's still leaking. I did plug the hole in the shroud plate on the end of the alternator, and now all of the oil is on the driver's side of the case. It's either:
1. The distributor (the O-ring has already been changed once)
2. The sending unit (I've sealed it and don't think that's it)
3. What looks like a pressed in plug of some kind near the sending unit (looks like a candidate for JB Weld)
4. Spontaneous generation of petro-chemicals out of nothing (I hope so - I'll be rich as soon as I figure out how to capture it)

Lane,
I hope it's #4. You'll be able to move to Beverly hills into Jeds old houes.
OR..
Maybe you next door neighbor is playing tricks on you. He comes out at night and squirts a little oil.
Watch our for way crazy gas mileage. If that happens, fer sure it's your neighbor. He's adding or removing gas when you're not looking.

Greg

Further progress report: Took it to my friend who owns an ACVW shop and looked at it at lunch. We cleaned it off good (again) and fired it up. We could see oil coming slowly out of the cylinder tin on top of the driver's side. !#$%!!!!!!

I have no idea why we couldn't see anything with the shroud removed, but I guess it has to do with not having a fan blowing oil out of the gap in the tin. At this point it looks like the only solution is to drop the engine, remove the shroud and tin, loosen the head bolts and reseal the barrel-case junction, sand the flange the holds the oil cooler and coat it with JB Weld (in case there's a crack), and replace the oil cooler (may as well). Needless to say, this won't happen before Carlisle. It's leaked since I got it, without worsening (much), so I guess it's ok.

OK, I'm stumped....

Sorry we didn't find it, Lane.

Tried everything safe I could think of.

Did Ken have any theory on the oil underneath the alternator?

gn

Nope. I think this one will have to go down in the annals of Speedsterdom as a true mystery. Sounds like I have a major fall project a-brewing.

After the Dragon, right?

Depends on how industrious I am. I certainly won't let it stop me from doing the Dragon (sounds like a dance). I don't have the space or lift capacity to get the car up high enough to pull the engine, so I'm going to have to come up with some ideas that don't cost an arm and a leg. I have no proof that pulling the engine is necessary, but I plan to "fix" every possible cause, and doing it with the engine out will be MUCH easier.

Pulling the engine is a cinch, and only takes about an hour even if you take your time. You really should line up a motorcycle jack as well as a higher reach floor jack (just happen to have the latter, but not the former, although I could borrow my neighbor's motorcycle jack for a while).

I'll help if I'm still around, but I need a wrist operation to correct a progressively more painfull ganglion cyst and might not be too much help until after it's healed (probably mid-late Summer). This really sounds like it's getting into Ken Erwin territory.......

A book traveling at a high rate of speed stopping suddenly against said ganglion cyst will cause it to disperse in a couple of days shortly after you have stopped howling ...Seriously, this works and was done by my Dr. years ago.

Gordon

I hope the corrective surgery on your wrist doesn't cause you to lose your 'Kung Fu' grip!!

Thought of the book cure, and I can stand one hell of a lot of pain, but this is painful even if given gentle pressure. Can't imagine what it would be like with the book cure, but it's beyond what I wish to tolerate. This thing comes and goes, and I have a "hand weanie" lined up in NE, but whenever I'm up there it's fine - go figure. Right now, it's displacing my wrist bones - not cool.

Anyway, I'll live with it til after Carlisle and then see where I am.

gn

Oh....and did I mention the hip needing replacement? Ya get over 55 and ya just start falling apart!!

Gordon,

I had one removed in 1989 & it left a big scar. My wife had one on the top of her wrist and she had it sucked out with a needle. They numb it up first, drain it, and your out the door in 10 minutes. At first it looked a bit brusied and still lumpy, but after one month it flattened out and never bothered her again. You can always have surgery if this does not work. Just a second option if you have not already discussed this with the Docs.


Marty G.

Lots of neat procedures seem to have developed over recent years. I had hernia surgery last January, but prior to the procedure I was presented with two options: The "open" (traditional) procedure and a newer laparoscopic procedure. The newer procedure promised a much shorter recovery time.

I believed per the diagnosis that it was a right side only problem. I elected to go with the newer procedure and the surgeon discovered during the operation that there was a problem on the other side also. This may have meant going back in a second time at some future date, but both sides were patched with the surgical mesh that has been used in recent years; the mesh reduces the likelihood of having to fix the problem again.

This progress, finding new more efficient procedures, is good for all of us but leaves me to wonder if pressures from insurance companies to keep costs down more than patient welfare is the real driving force. Oops! This is beginning to sound like a rant.
Sorry
Hoss

Carlisle seminar idea - Roadside Removal of Ganglion Cyst. Calling Dr. Clock, Calling Dr. Clock.

The Dr. is in ....We'll set a large egg sammich on the target area to replicate a Gallagher slam - bam .
Your choice of medicine: Webster, Britannica, Chilton, Idiots Guide, 40 Carlisle Production's program guides bungee corded together .
What an on stage crowd draw this will be......we'll utlize a decibel meter to record Gordon's retort that will be heard clear to the Harley Plant!

UPDATE UPDATE UPDATE

Yesterday, Ken Erwin (friend and local air-cooled guru) and I pulled the engine from my car in his shop. I am now spoiled and want a full sized lift in my garage. Ah well...

Anyway, I pulled the shroud off and replaced both the internal oil cooler and the pedestal. Pat Downs told me the thinks the most likely cause for the oil leak is a porous casting of the pedestal. After we cleaned it up, we noticed some pits in the passages. The new one also has some as well, as did an old German one Ken had on his shelf. However, there were two deep pits in the original one from my car that we couldn't see the bottom of. I have my fingers crossed, that this is the solution. We saw no signs of cracks anywhere, and there was some fresh oil in the shroud next to where the pedestal was. All of the area around it was caked with oily dirt, but this was fresh oil on top of grunge.

Monday Ken is getting some high pressure hoses to re-plumb my external oil filter and cooler, to eliminate some small leaks in the fittings. I'm going with AN fittings and some stuff I believe he calls "quick-lock", or something like that. Then we'll put the engine back in. I may decide to go ahead and re-torque the head bolts while it's out. We forgot to do that yesterday, but now is the best time.

Anyone got any other suggestions?

I'm sure you have already checked it, but make sure the fuel pump base has not cracked. It not like ly but no harm in looking at it.

I wish there was a way to run and and cool it for minute or two with the tin off. if its still got a leak you could spot it straight off the bat.

I have seen Mr Vestal have 2 high output fans blowing over a bare long block while ran it for just a minute or 2 checking leaks. He has had one or two to be pesky like that as well..

I have a rotary electric pump, so I just have a plate over the mechanical fuel pump spot. I've verified that it's not the source.

I am pretty sure I WILL re-torque the head bolts on Monday. I bought a copy of VolksWorld today that had a how-to article on just that. They say there is no need to torque the upper bolts. Does that sound right? Why would it just be the lower bolts?

I heard that before. seams the bottom on both sides are more likely to get lose. But I would still kick the torque down 20 lbs and check um,

GENTLEY.

If they don't give much leave um alone before you pull a stud.

But if you do find many studs pulling out.. Its best to re case saver the entire engine to play it safe.

You don't have to split the case to do that and its worth the peace of mind, and NO more leaks..

If you have Pat on it He would the best man to make that call. or just to use a oversize stud repair kit. I don't like to do that but it will work..

Lane, that process is also sometimes called "super-studding." Be careful if you decide it needs to be done, 'cuz you only get to do it one time. After that, it's kaput.
I'll stand by the earlier Sartwell theory; porosity in the case, ala Kelly's engine. There's an internal channel from the oil cooler to the rear, under the top, left side (from the rear of the car). It's not very deep into the aluminum, and a porous casting is very possible.
Think of it as a progressive series of tiny air pockets which, under pressure, allow oil from inside the case to weep out of the surface without an easily identifiable source. There won't always be a pit there, but it'll sure show up with a little talcum powder, sure as heck.
The oil seeps out just like blood from a raspberry on your knee as a kid. A thin spot over broken vessels makes a bruise; same logic, except normal blood pressure won't always force it to the surface.
Run it up on a stand before torquing those bolts.

Cory is right . In fact I'd be extra careful with all of them and keep the torque way way down maybe as low as half the spec's.