Hmmm... Re-read some of the earlier posts in this thread. Gordon and I did the talcum powder thing with the shroud removed, and saw no sign of a leak. I think it's a possibility that the oil cooler pedestal is the source (as Pat suggested) but that it only does it when external pressure is applied - possibly from the shroud. I know that sounds like a stretch, but it's all I have at the moment. Shortly after Gordon and I tested it with the shroud removed, I took it to Ken's, where we checked the cleaned-up engine with everything in place. We could see where the oil seeped out from under the shroud right near the pedestal. It's gotta be either
- the pedestal, as Pat said, or
- the barrel-case junction on the left side, or
- a crack or porosity of the case in the barrel/case or case/pedestal area.
I will check out the head bolts on Monday, at any event. I'll keep y'all posted. Keep those suggestions a comin'.
Oh yeah, if case porosity if the problem, what's the solution?
Per Kelly Fraser: "Smackumpuckey" (whatever the hell THAT is!)
With all the new epoxies on the market. I'm not sure what to tell you..
But I'd have to try painting that case area with something heat and oil resistant that sets up hard and soaks in good. In hope of sealing up the pours in the metal
It's that or magnisium spot weld the area heavily.
I'd check with a epoxy specialist at Mcmasters Karr. first.
And a talk with Pat is also due, if that is whats up. Because you may wind up scrapping the case if it cant be sealed up.
I hope not for your sake .But it is a possibility.
But I'd have to try painting that case area with something heat and oil resistant that sets up hard and soaks in good. In hope of sealing up the pours in the metal
It's that or magnisium spot weld the area heavily.
I'd check with a epoxy specialist at Mcmasters Karr. first.
And a talk with Pat is also due, if that is whats up. Because you may wind up scrapping the case if it cant be sealed up.
I hope not for your sake .But it is a possibility.
"Oh yeah, if case porosity is the problem, what's the solution?"
In my mind, if the case is bad, it's a defective part that should be covered by CB Perf. I know, a real PITA, but if shipping it back to Pat to exchange the case is required to make it "right", ya gotta do what ya gotta do.
Hopefully you can pin down the source whilst the engine is out.
~WB
In my mind, if the case is bad, it's a defective part that should be covered by CB Perf. I know, a real PITA, but if shipping it back to Pat to exchange the case is required to make it "right", ya gotta do what ya gotta do.
Hopefully you can pin down the source whilst the engine is out.
~WB
This is a tough one especially when you guys have the car in front of you.
I wouldn't think that "splash oil" from within the case could "push it's way out of the case that easily. So I would think a pressurized oil leak source. But to address the slash oil theory and case porosity--is your case properly vented and not building up pressure forcing the oil out of a weak spot? Could you jury rig a larger venting system and take it for a ride(take the filler cap of and attach some sort of overboard tube? If it does come down to case porosity
(read: poor product) and you don't want to rebuild it all (but I still think you should get a new case from the seller) Then I would clean the area very well with acetone or other nasty solvent and then smear this stuff on "http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cspages/prosealtypetanksealant.php"--We use it between aluminum lap joints of integral fuel tanks.
It remains slightly flexible, can be as and is submerged in fuel/oil and is paintable. -it's a beauty. Let me know if you need a tube. But I would still keep checking the pressurized sources.
I wouldn't think that "splash oil" from within the case could "push it's way out of the case that easily. So I would think a pressurized oil leak source. But to address the slash oil theory and case porosity--is your case properly vented and not building up pressure forcing the oil out of a weak spot? Could you jury rig a larger venting system and take it for a ride(take the filler cap of and attach some sort of overboard tube? If it does come down to case porosity
(read: poor product) and you don't want to rebuild it all (but I still think you should get a new case from the seller) Then I would clean the area very well with acetone or other nasty solvent and then smear this stuff on "http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cspages/prosealtypetanksealant.php"--We use it between aluminum lap joints of integral fuel tanks.
It remains slightly flexible, can be as and is submerged in fuel/oil and is paintable. -it's a beauty. Let me know if you need a tube. But I would still keep checking the pressurized sources.
But if the engine is otherwise perfect.
A product like that block sealant. could work. But you have to get the oil out of the pours of the aluminum first. Tricky!
Its just plain cost effective to repair it, one way or the other. Or by grinding out the flaw then welding up the pinholes past flush then grinding it back almost flush so it can live.
This is the kind of stuff I hate to get in on. especially if it's a near new engine.
But you can't blame Pat it's the case makers fault. Unless you x-ray every peace before assembly it's hard to catch a case flaw.
However Pat may decide it's best to replace it.. Again that call belongs to the man with the most exsperince.
A product like that block sealant. could work. But you have to get the oil out of the pours of the aluminum first. Tricky!
Its just plain cost effective to repair it, one way or the other. Or by grinding out the flaw then welding up the pinholes past flush then grinding it back almost flush so it can live.
This is the kind of stuff I hate to get in on. especially if it's a near new engine.
But you can't blame Pat it's the case makers fault. Unless you x-ray every peace before assembly it's hard to catch a case flaw.
However Pat may decide it's best to replace it.. Again that call belongs to the man with the most exsperince.
You're not using that fancy synthetic oil are you? Don't do it, it will find it's way out if there is one. While the dino oil will be fine.
As far as repairing a new part or new case (and I don't know that this is new) it sucks and is wrong. How many times have you paid good money for headers that don't fit(and have to be "reworked" prior to assy) or tried to installed brakes pads that need the edges grinded/smoothed before they will slide into the caliper----wrong again.
If I am to "repair" something that's new it's because I'm too lazy to start the job over again with a the correctly mfg'd part. Just because I "fix" It doesn't make the original problem ok.
Another thought (and I know you already checked) but triple check the oil pressure switch
area. (On this site if I remember correctly) there was a hairline crack that opened into the oil passage when hot/sealed when cold.
As far as repairing a new part or new case (and I don't know that this is new) it sucks and is wrong. How many times have you paid good money for headers that don't fit(and have to be "reworked" prior to assy) or tried to installed brakes pads that need the edges grinded/smoothed before they will slide into the caliper----wrong again.
If I am to "repair" something that's new it's because I'm too lazy to start the job over again with a the correctly mfg'd part. Just because I "fix" It doesn't make the original problem ok.
Another thought (and I know you already checked) but triple check the oil pressure switch
area. (On this site if I remember correctly) there was a hairline crack that opened into the oil passage when hot/sealed when cold.
Bruce - I've added considerable venting in the hopes that it was a pressure issue (see photo below). This includes the visible connections to the air filters, as well as a connection to each valve cover. In answer to the question that you posted while I was typing this - Yes, I am currently running Royal Purple, which is a synthetic. I am switching over to Brad Penn, which is petroleum-based for the reasons you stated. The leak did appear to get a bit worse with the Royal Purple. The oil pressure switch was the first place I checked, and I used some thread sealer there. The tests since then are pretty definitive that the source is under the shroud in the vicinity of the pedestal.
Barry - I asked Pat if he thought the case could be the problem, and he said it was highly unlikely. He felt pretty strongly that the oil cooler pedestal was more likely to be the cause.
Last night I said that I planned to re-torque the lower head bolts tomorrow, but now I realize that it's highly unlikely to be the cause. The oil appears at the top of the engine, not the bottom. Oil is not likely to flow upward, particularly against the fan-blown air blowing down across the barrels. I still may do it. I may also remove the tins and re-torque the upper bolts as well. That'll mean pulling the intake manifold off (ruining the nearly new gaskets) to get the tins out of the way. I dunno... Coating the top of the case with smackumpuckey is starting to sound like a good idea ;-)
Barry - I asked Pat if he thought the case could be the problem, and he said it was highly unlikely. He felt pretty strongly that the oil cooler pedestal was more likely to be the cause.
Last night I said that I planned to re-torque the lower head bolts tomorrow, but now I realize that it's highly unlikely to be the cause. The oil appears at the top of the engine, not the bottom. Oil is not likely to flow upward, particularly against the fan-blown air blowing down across the barrels. I still may do it. I may also remove the tins and re-torque the upper bolts as well. That'll mean pulling the intake manifold off (ruining the nearly new gaskets) to get the tins out of the way. I dunno... Coating the top of the case with smackumpuckey is starting to sound like a good idea ;-)
Lane,
For added venting, run a hose off the fuel pump block-off plate and "T" into one of your carb lines.
That helped my weeping problem.
For added venting, run a hose off the fuel pump block-off plate and "T" into one of your carb lines.
That helped my weeping problem.
I like the clean look of your engine! I don't see a filler neck vent (give it a try).
Don't resort to smearing anything yet-there's a problem, you have to find it.
"In my opinion"(ONLY MY OPINION) people don't vent these engine properly. I don't really understand the reasoning behind the need to put box's and hoses here and there. I also don't understand why they try and reinvent the wheel. Most motors (if not all) have crank cases "vented" to the intake vacuum" this provides a lower pressure that draws excess smoke, pressure, gases from the case. Then people started diverting this the exhaust in order to create the vacuum there and so as not to have to burn the ugly gases again via the intake.
VW people place a container (to provide more volume I'm told) the vent it to atmosphere (no vacuum) via filters and then run hoses back to the air filter housing. There is no vacuum (or very little in these "systems" because air follows the path of least resistance.
Justa thought
Don't resort to smearing anything yet-there's a problem, you have to find it.
"In my opinion"(ONLY MY OPINION) people don't vent these engine properly. I don't really understand the reasoning behind the need to put box's and hoses here and there. I also don't understand why they try and reinvent the wheel. Most motors (if not all) have crank cases "vented" to the intake vacuum" this provides a lower pressure that draws excess smoke, pressure, gases from the case. Then people started diverting this the exhaust in order to create the vacuum there and so as not to have to burn the ugly gases again via the intake.
VW people place a container (to provide more volume I'm told) the vent it to atmosphere (no vacuum) via filters and then run hoses back to the air filter housing. There is no vacuum (or very little in these "systems" because air follows the path of least resistance.
Justa thought
Had to go now I'm back----Soooo, any vacuum you are providing via you air cleaners is just sucking fresh air (mostly) through your box and filters. Not being directly applied to the case.
Good luck!!
Good luck!!
I seriously doubt it would be case porosity. It's such a critical part that QC at the factory has to be on top. FWIW I've never seen that happen.
The only case porosity I've ever seen were several randomly placed holes created when #3 exh. valve told #3 rod to get lost at high RPM...."Not your problem".... ;-)
The more I think of it---you have no "upper case" vent at all. With the oil filler port plugged (as it looks). The blow by gases etc..have to travel up you push rod tube, valve covers, hoses to the box but you have little to no vacuum to help them get there.
Good luck!
Good luck!
That one's easily remedied. I can replace the plug with the original filling, and T it into the rest of the system.
and temporarily remove the filters on the box and loop a piece of hose from one filter port to the other. This way you'll be applying vacuum to to your case and not drawing in fresh air.
Worth a try and it's a no cost, low effort, effort.
But it won't cure an oil cooler leak.:)
Worth a try and it's a no cost, low effort, effort.
But it won't cure an oil cooler leak.:)
CB 2110 with oil cooler...... Plenty of oil leaks, drove me crazy.
Finally, I learned to run it a half qt. low. No more oil on the concrete, great oil pressure and it runs fine.
JMHO
Finally, I learned to run it a half qt. low. No more oil on the concrete, great oil pressure and it runs fine.
JMHO
Lane, Look like you did the case vent the way I've done it on 14 or so speedster builds, bottom two hoses on the vent box are the gravity drains back tot he valve covers, the two hose on the face of the vent box to the air cleaners & two ambient air filters. This configuration always works for me with no oil leaks to speak of . ~Alan
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Lane I spoke to a friend that works on Subaru motors a lot He suggested itching the ares in question with Muric acid to bleach out any oil then pic your own sealer and paint it on .
He suggested Gorilla Glue. and said it worked well. But if you know of something better No harm no foul.
He suggested Gorilla Glue. and said it worked well. But if you know of something better No harm no foul.
Thanks, guys. Yep, Alan, I followed your lead. Still, I see what Bruce is saying. If the two hoses down to the valve covers are for the return, where does the input to the breather come from?
My theroy: when the motor is under throttle at higher rpm's, the oil gets relieved through the valve cover vents, up the hose with the help of the carb air intake (under throttle)and deposited in the vent box, when the motor is shut down any excessive oil gravity drains back into the motor via the valve covers. On just one of the motors, it still showed signs of a small oil leakage, so I ran it 1/2 pint low curing it.I know there wil be discussion, but it has been a proven method for me. ~Alan
LAne, just so you know. I'm not saying that the valve cover lines are returns only. Oil vapor/smoke/gases travel up and run back as oil via the same line no big deal. What I say was (imho)a circumvention of the stock design=why? Why not just mount little filters directly to the valve covers and filler neck?-(tongue in cheek)because they (those brilliant vw designers wanted a vacuum applied to the case. With those filters in place it's kind of like sucking soda through a cracked straw-it just doesn't work as well.
Besides with an overpressured case you usuallt get oil leaks at the pulley. I was trying to think further along the line because you have checked "all of the pressurized oil leak sources" ie:sender, pump, cooler, cylinder base/fit etc...Good luck!
Besides with an overpressured case you usuallt get oil leaks at the pulley. I was trying to think further along the line because you have checked "all of the pressurized oil leak sources" ie:sender, pump, cooler, cylinder base/fit etc...Good luck!
Ok, here's where we stand:
- New push-lock hoses with new fittings for all external oil plumbing.
- New internal cooler and pedestal.
- Breather system modified. I removed the right hand side little air-filter thingy, and routed a hose from there to the filler next fitting.
Everything is running and no signs of leaks as yet. I didn't have time to take it for a drive, but we ran it for quite a while up on the lift looking top and bottom for leaks. None yet. I'll pick the car up from the shop tomorrow at lunch. The drive back to work, and then later home will be the acid test. Plenty of freeway driving. I'll let y'all know. I am cautiously optimistic.
- New push-lock hoses with new fittings for all external oil plumbing.
- New internal cooler and pedestal.
- Breather system modified. I removed the right hand side little air-filter thingy, and routed a hose from there to the filler next fitting.
Everything is running and no signs of leaks as yet. I didn't have time to take it for a drive, but we ran it for quite a while up on the lift looking top and bottom for leaks. None yet. I'll pick the car up from the shop tomorrow at lunch. The drive back to work, and then later home will be the acid test. Plenty of freeway driving. I'll let y'all know. I am cautiously optimistic.
Stick a fork in it I think your done and got out of trouble easy.
I'm hopin', Barry. Cross your fingers.
Yee gads! this one is rteally taking up some calendar time and forum bandwidth. I remember Lane bitching about this two Carlisles ago, before I even had my car. I would be so delighted to hear his cautious optimism turn into verified elation. Hope it works that way. One trouble up on the lift is you just can't get high pressures in the cylinders like you do when the engine is developing power to the wheels. It is the combustion chamber pressure that blows by the rings and charges to crankcase and drives the vapors and/or oil out the breathers, or other leak paths, wherever they go. I am praying that drive back home for Lane did not develop oil leaks
Smackumpucky = JB Weld, a two part, thick epoxy paste that will seal the cracks, pores, whatever. You can mix it up then sort of roll it in your fingers, like clay. My thread on this problem (a year ago??) shows it works like a champ. Cory's builder (Sartwell, aka "The Wrench") said he used this a few times on cracked cases, even one that spurted oil up in an arc (in slew-mewtion, as Monty Python might say). This was a new engine for his drag racer, and he said the engine ran well for years after the patch, no problem. He gave me some JB, told me how to clean up the area and just press it on there. Area has gotta be clean before you go tho, using alcohol, acetone or any good grease cutter/disolver. 24 hrs later it is hard as steel and well stuck. So far, my porous and cracked case (near the oil temp/press sending unit) is dry as a bone. So, these castings can come w/ bad spots in them, and nobody checks them that good. My bet is nobody checks them.
I thought a breather vent at the oil filler tube was standard equipment. Seems to me that is the first place a vent should go. On my car, it is the only one I have, and seems to work ok. My sand seal wept a little at the beginning, but now is pretty darn good, scarcely needing a wipe down after several hundred miles or so.
Smackumpucky = JB Weld, a two part, thick epoxy paste that will seal the cracks, pores, whatever. You can mix it up then sort of roll it in your fingers, like clay. My thread on this problem (a year ago??) shows it works like a champ. Cory's builder (Sartwell, aka "The Wrench") said he used this a few times on cracked cases, even one that spurted oil up in an arc (in slew-mewtion, as Monty Python might say). This was a new engine for his drag racer, and he said the engine ran well for years after the patch, no problem. He gave me some JB, told me how to clean up the area and just press it on there. Area has gotta be clean before you go tho, using alcohol, acetone or any good grease cutter/disolver. 24 hrs later it is hard as steel and well stuck. So far, my porous and cracked case (near the oil temp/press sending unit) is dry as a bone. So, these castings can come w/ bad spots in them, and nobody checks them that good. My bet is nobody checks them.
I thought a breather vent at the oil filler tube was standard equipment. Seems to me that is the first place a vent should go. On my car, it is the only one I have, and seems to work ok. My sand seal wept a little at the beginning, but now is pretty darn good, scarcely needing a wipe down after several hundred miles or so.
I'll let you know this afternoon, Kelly. I pick the car up at lunch. Ok everybody, cross your fingers, toes, and any other appendiges.
Ok, after driving 15-20 miles back to work from Ken's shop, I am happy to say that there is no sign of oil on the top of the engine. I have another 20 mile journey home this evening, after which I'll post again. So far, though, it looks good.
Holy crap. Lane's oil problem is fixed.
Stand by for dogs and cats lying down with each other. I think it's in Deuteronomy or Numbers; "Lane's oil problem shall be licketh, followed by cautious optimism that the Candy Cane Fairy shall visit and bear witness to Vince's meat puppet. ..."
(Maybe that's not exactly right, but it's close.)
Clearly, this is the End Times.
Stand by for dogs and cats lying down with each other. I think it's in Deuteronomy or Numbers; "Lane's oil problem shall be licketh, followed by cautious optimism that the Candy Cane Fairy shall visit and bear witness to Vince's meat puppet. ..."
(Maybe that's not exactly right, but it's close.)
Clearly, this is the End Times.
I swear I just heard a voice say "Yea verily I say unto all 'The oil hath drippeth not, nor shall it drippeth any more, for the world is now without oil and it is beyond oil. Oil shall no longer besmirch thy engine case nor thy cooling tins nor drippeth on thy garage floor, for thine engine is sealed as should be thy mouth.'"
Now I'll have to wax my car befor going to Carlisle...... ;-)
Glad you nailed it.......
Glad you nailed it.......
Weeeeellll.....
I wandered out into the parking lot on a break a little while ago, and I noticed a small drip from either the oil pressure sending unit, or the distributor shaft - either of which should be easy fixes. The volume was about one drop's worth, so I'm still happy.
I wandered out into the parking lot on a break a little while ago, and I noticed a small drip from either the oil pressure sending unit, or the distributor shaft - either of which should be easy fixes. The volume was about one drop's worth, so I'm still happy.
FINAL (I hope) POSTING
I am now home, having put another 17 miles on the car, mostly at 50 mph and above. There is no sign of the main oil leak. There is some seepage from around the oil pressure sending unit, and one of the new fitting at the oil filter seeped a bit. Otherwise, nothing.
CAN AH GET A' AMEN?!?!?!?!
I am now home, having put another 17 miles on the car, mostly at 50 mph and above. There is no sign of the main oil leak. There is some seepage from around the oil pressure sending unit, and one of the new fitting at the oil filter seeped a bit. Otherwise, nothing.
CAN AH GET A' AMEN?!?!?!?!
AAAAAAAAAAAAAMen!
Well Rats !! I have to send my New super race connecting rods back to CB-P a stud on the last one would not unscrew when we prefitted the bearings to check the spec's and it was not torque,, only snugged.
He went to take it apart to install it and It acted like its cross threaded ...
I said take Um Off. that's not right they are going back..
On the other hand, Im glad that's doing good now. Good luck! Lane,,
He went to take it apart to install it and It acted like its cross threaded ...
I said take Um Off. that's not right they are going back..
On the other hand, Im glad that's doing good now. Good luck! Lane,,
Lane, maybe you forgot to put oil back in it :)
Glad it is resolved ....~Alan
Glad it is resolved ....~Alan
Frustrating not knowing the fix, I bet it was the oil. I have a saab 9-3 turbo --When I use synthetic I have an oil leak at the sender, synthetic blend or reg oil=tight. Did you discover these issues when you changed to it?
It leaked before I went to the Royal Purple, but the leak was not as bad. The Brad Penn (5 1/2 quarts, Alan ;-) that's in it now is partially synthetic, so I can expect a little seepage. Heck, it wouldn't be a VW engine if it didn't leak a little.
Lane,
I was going to say the same: If it's a Vee-dub, it will leak a little oil from somewhere's, somehow, gauranteed. It does indeed sound like AMEN tho on your major problem. At great long last. So, in view of the uncountable words spent on the subject, can you summarize what it is that you did that you believe either fixed it outright, or at least had a hand in fixing, your leak?
I was going to say the same: If it's a Vee-dub, it will leak a little oil from somewhere's, somehow, gauranteed. It does indeed sound like AMEN tho on your major problem. At great long last. So, in view of the uncountable words spent on the subject, can you summarize what it is that you did that you believe either fixed it outright, or at least had a hand in fixing, your leak?
I tend to believe that the major problem was just as Pat said, the oil cooler pedestal. All of the circumstantial evidence pointed in that direction, even though we never saw conclusive evidence. The cooler itself looked like it might have been damaged, but it was bone dry on the outside. All of the fresh-looking oil in the shroud was around the pedestal itself.
The use of a fully synthetic oil no doubt exacerbated the problem.
The use of a fully synthetic oil no doubt exacerbated the problem.