hot generater and speratic starting on 57 porsche

Sometimes she starts and sometimes she don't. Checked battery. All grounds, crossed over the selonoid. Starter motor turns sometimes and other times she seems plocked, like the battery is completely dead then an= few minites later shes starts up or sometimes I have to wait a while. Through all this testing and retesting I noticed the generator was HOT. I don't have any sofistacated testing gear but have been working on old vw's etc for a long time. Anybody got any suggestins that don't require poping the engine. I'm way out in the countryside.

Is this a real car or one of those kits?

Robert:

A few things:

Has the battery been running down when you're not driving the car?

Does it have a generator with a separate voltage regulator, rather than an alternator with a built-in regulator?

Next time it doesn't start, try disconnecting the BIG wire going to the generator and then try starting it. If it starts, then you may have a shorted generator.

If it still doesn't start, reconnect the generator's big wire and remove the starter and take it to an automotive electrical place to get it tested. It may either be just plain old and tired, or it may have developed a flat spot on the armature and you're hitting that flat (dead) spot from time to time and it won't start. Either way, it sounds like you're about due for getting that starter rebuilt or just getting a new one. Try to find a German one. More money, but worth it.

Gordon
The Speedstah Guy from Beaufort

And from way out in left field..............If the car does well when cold, and the problem occurs after running a while,....Check the ignition timing........I have seen this three times......

Hey Gordon, Thanks for the tips. I think your starter flat spot might be the ticket. I'll try that generator wrie trick. Thing is I don't have the means to take the engine out to remove the starter at this time. I've tested it by wireing the ground directly to the battery and putting a starter button close to it from the selinoid to trouble shoot the ignition. Wireing turned out fine. Question: It's been my experience that when the body of the generator is so hot that the berings are shot. Have you had a generator run hot like that and still preform properly? Thanks again and I'll keep you posted. Forgive my spelling, b.

Bopper, this is an original 57, but not the original engine. She's been in the family since 1974.

Gordon, yes the battery does lose it's charge when she sits long. b.

Ok so, if your car is a "real" 1957 and I'm still not sure if it's a VW or a Porsche but, more than likely it still has the 6 volt system unless it was converted to 12 volts.

Let's assume that it's still a 6 volt system. Go through every ground wire and check for corrosion. The biggest problem with a 6 volt system is the ground circuit.

Many people, during normal maintenance have switched battery cables due to corrosian and used ones specifically designed for 12 volt cars. (12 volt cables are much smaller in diameter than 6 volt cables)

Check the wires going to the starter and to the ground, if the wires are as small as the ones on your daily driver which I also assume has a 12 volt system then either add a 2nd wire or replace them with wires designed for 6 volts.

If this is a VW then the starter can be removed fairly easy without removing the engine.

By the way, removing a starter from an early 356 is tough but it can also be done without removing the engine

http://www.356registry.org/tech/starter_removal_tiedemann.html

Yup, dirty ground connections are usualy the biggest culprit in 6 volt systems - it doesn't take much at that voltage level to sideline you.

"Thing is I don't have the means to take the engine out to remove the starter at this time." You can remove the starter without pulling the engine. Just get the car up in the air a foot or two and go in under the passenger side just foward of the rear wheel. Remove the wires (mark them as to where they go) and remove the (1) bolt and (1) nut and it should, with some degree of pounding on it to loosen the corrosion from years and years of sitting in there, fall right out.

"Question: It's been my experience that when the body of the generator is so hot that the berings are shot. Have you had a generator run hot like that and still preform properly?"

Well......no. Yes, they tend to run warm when the engine is running, but you should be able to place your hand on it for a few seconds regardless. If you have doubts, then the same guy who services your starter will also service and/or rebuild your generator. It is essentially the same thing, as far as the service guy is concerned. Plan on around $100 bucks to rebuild each and it should take them (with queue time) 4-5 days. I've got a pair of old guys near me who still do this stuff; drop-off today means pickup in two days.

gn

Hey you guys, I'm hip to the ground in the 6 volt world and that was my first attack. I didn't realize I could drop the starter out with just that one bolt. I've been under this old girl for three days looking at it. It looks pretty tight in there- heater box, axel, etc. When I worked on VWs back in the old days, the first thing I did was drop the engine( saved a lot of skin on a lot of knockles. On the old buses I'd cut the back panel and just roll the body foward, but the Porsche has to go up pretty high and I only got so many railroad tyes.
If all else fails I'll try to take the starter out like you sugjest. But if I can't get it out I'm gonna put the voo doo on one of you guys. Thanks a lot for your time aand I'll keep you posted. Good rolling, b.

Hey Gordon and you other guys. I got the starter out thanks to you.Thing is I bench tested it with the battery from the car and all that happened was that the bendix came out and pretty feible at that. I had an old 12 volt battery from the tractor laying around so I hooked it up to that. The starter motor played out perfect. I cannot tell how much voltage was left in the 12volt battery but I know it wouldn't start the Masse furgerson 6 months ago. So my question now is; Is the starter motor good and the 6 volt battery not really charged enough by the generator. I'll CHARGE UP THE 6 VOLT TONIGHT AND bench test THE STARTER in the morning. Got a feeling it's the generator and has been all this time. CAN A GUY FORCE A ELECTRIC MOTOR TO WORK WITH EXTRA VOLTAGE IF IT'S BURNED OUT. Thanks for taking the time helping me through this. Any tips on taking out the generator. Take care, b.

If it's burned out then it's not going to work on 6 volts or 12 volts. If it's "tired" it may work on 12 volts and not 6 volts.

Since you have the starter out of the transaxle, remove the generator and take both to a rebuilder and pay the few bucks to have them bebuilt. I'd also buy a new battery.

see: http://www.356registry.com/techinfo/repair/generator_removal.html

Yeah, me too.

Hey Larry, thanks for that web site(356 registry.com) the dude is very cool. One thing though; Is there some kind of trick to getting the pully nut off the generator. I can't remember how I used to do it on the old bugs. Gordon jump in on this anytime. Hope you boys are in good form and thanks heaps again. b.

i think they are opposite threaded

Lock down the pulley with a screwdriver and remove the nut. If you have an impact gun that works also.

Robert, it's the same site I gave you that tells how to remove the starter see above

Hey Larry, yeah I saw the stuff, but he doesn't tell how to get the nut off. The baby I got won't budge. I'm just screwing up the back pulley when I lock it down. Does she go counter clockwise? Somebody said that out there and I think I remember something like that. Thanks, b.

Hey Bob. Thanks for the info. Are you sure? b.

Hey you guys I got it. Bob, it's righty tighty, lefty loosey. But you don't want get on the bad side of the guy who put this thing on. I bent a real nice old screwdriver locking the pulley in. but I'm sure it will come in handy for those' round the corner jobs" Thanks again, you guys. b.