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X2 on the 3.44 R&P with the stock gears (.93 4th). That's what Bridget runs and, once again for those who missed it:

1st gear is perfectly nice--neither too stump-puller nor too long.

2nd gear allows for impressive acceleration through 60 mph.

3rd gear will take the car to about 100 mph (if I want to be stupid) at the 6000 RPM redline.

4th gear gets 70 mph at 3000 RPM. (80 is still under 3500). If I were not convinced that my car would go airborne, I could leave the go roller down in 4th and see how close to 140 mph she would get. It is my feeling that she would not get much past 125 at best. That's plenty fast for a fiberglass body on a 50-year-old pan, with 165/r80s at all 4 corners. . . . 

The RPM drops between all upshifts are comfortable for the stock Subaru 2.2 and, it would appear, would be also for any knowledgeably breathed-on 2110 or larger Type 1.

Would a 5th gear be sweet? You bet! But at $3,000+ (vs $1,100 or so for the trans I have), seems an extravagance to lose 300 or 400 rpm at highway speeds.

As they say, your mileage may vary. But I'm gonna remember these ratios in case I ever have occasion to build another, similar car. The $-to-usefulness ratio of this very simple rig seems hard to beat.

 

 

TRP posted:

A little bit of internet research leads me to understand that Terry is running the following gearing:

3.88 R/P 3.80, 2.06, 1.48, 1.17, .089 

 

It would certainly work, Ted, although the 1.17 makes the 3-4 spread tighter than the 4-5. Normally you'd want the spread tighter as you shifted through the gears, with the 4-5 spread the tightest of the bunch., That's why most people use a 1.12 with the 1.48, and it gives a nice drop to either a .89 or .82 in 5th. The 1.48 and 1.12 have always been pretty popular with a stock mainshaft.

The 1.17 makes the 3-4 split pretty tight when you also have to figure in the spacing for 5th. Terry may have a specific reason for using it; we'll see if he chimes in.

I spend most of my time in third and fourth, Al. The roads where I live in the Sierra foothills are tight and twisty with a lot of changes in elevation. The tight 3-4 keeps the revs @ 3000 while shifting.

The gap between 4 and 5 is minimal given the torque of the 2110. While cruising in 5th, dropping to 4th for passing feels like the turbo kicked in.

All in all, gears 2 through 5 feel equal and tight. I suggest that anyone who doubts the advantage of a five speed come up and take Penny for a spin.

I know, putting up 5 large seems rediculous for a toy car. But just how rediculous is it to be driving a toy car in the first place?

Which gives you the highest cruising speed? The .89 or .82?  I drive the car on the highway about ad much as I do in the twiaties.

With as much nonsense I've already doled out on this thing, the 5 large isn't bothering me. If I'm going to do it, I just want to do it right the first time.  I'm inclined to go with what is recommended by youze experts.

TRP posted:

Which gives you the highest cruising speed? The .89 or .82?  I drive the car on the highway about ad much as I do in the twiaties.

With as much nonsense I've already doled out on this thing, the 5 large isn't bothering me. If I'm going to do it, I just want to do it right the first time.  I'm inclined to go with what is recommended by youze experts.

With any given R/P, the lower the numerical value of 4th gear, the higher the vehicle speed relative to engine RPM. That sounds great-- who wouldn't want to go faster with less RPMs? At 3000 RPM the .82 will propel you down the road faster than a .89. 

However, there's a limit here. You can buy a .77 4th gear as well, but you really don't want to if you've got a 3.88 R/P.

Think of it like this: I would imagine you've ridden a multi-speed mountain or road bike. I'm going to assume that you understand the idea behind 18-27 gears-- but to put it as simply as possible, your legs produce a specific amount of power and they do it best at a specific cadence. Keeping your legs moving at this cadence keeps you producing optimal power. The many, many gears available are to allow you to fine tune exactly how fast you can go, assuming you can keep up the cadence. If your legs start to slow down, you need an easier gear, if they speed up, you need a harder one.

It's like that with the car as well. The engine runs between 700 (or so) RPM and 6000 (or so) RPM, but it only produces good power within a certain band. The meat of the powerband is actually higher up in the register than any of us would like to spin our engines for hours at a time (much like your optimal bicycling cadence is spinning faster than most people feel comfortable with), so the goal is to spin just fast enough to stay in the powerband, but slow enough to make it non-stressed. That optimal point is generally 3000- 3750 or so RPM.

Racing bicycles have really, really long top gears. If you weigh 140 lbs and have thighs the size of tree trunks, it is theoretically possible to spin that gear and go 40 mph. The reality is that I have significantly less power available than Chris Froome, so I'm unlikely to be able to push that gear optimally. I might be able to push it on a downhill with a tailwind, but if the road climbs even a little (or maybe even just flattens out) or if there's a trace headwind (or maybe just no tailwind), I'm not strong enough to push it. My cadence slows, and the bike slows. I need to shift to a gear that increases my cadence and matches the bike's speed to my power output. 

Your engine is like that. If you fall out of the powerband because you have too long of a final-drive (too low numerically), you're going to slow down-- even with the accelerator floor-matted. Your only workable choice is to downshift. If 3rd gear is a long reach, you'll be screaming in 3rd and bogging in 4th.

Everybody wants that nice highway gear, but our engines generally only have 150 hp or less. I've got a couple hundred on tap, but that makes me about 1/2 as powerful as a V6 Mustang. Additionally, the heads on a Type 1 pretty much ensure that nothing much is going to happen below 3000 RPM or so. In my experience, a 2110 with a .82/3.88 feels pretty soggy below 3000 RPM, and a .77/3.88 would be way worse. You need to have a shorter gear for less motor, or more motor for a longer gear. It's super-hard to get enough motor to push a .82/3.88 in a Type 1 of any displacement.

This is because we either need more torque "under the curve". or more gears, or both. The .82 is fine... until it isn't, and then it's a loooong reach down to 3rd, and you're singing along at 3800 RPM or so. A $5000 transaxle is not cheap, but I've spent several times that trying to approach the problem from the other direction.

Back to that highway gear-- it's cool to have, but not if the gear below it is a mile away. Terry gets away with his because his 2110 is a pretty torquey mill, and he's OK spending a lot of time in 3rd or 4th. With a more highway oriented transaxle, you'll want the 3-4 (or 4-5) spread to be tighter, so you can find that "just so" gear. It's that, or just live with a highway gear that's singing along in a higher register than makes you comfortable.

I once phoned Art Thraen from I80 just inside Nevada. My over-everythinged "monster motor" was throwing oil any time I spent a prolonged amount of time above 3700 RPM. Art's advice? "Slow down". I did. I stopped throwing oil like the Exxon Valdez. When I got home I re-geared for the last time.

The difficulty is not in using the calculator and figuring it out. The difficulty is knowing what gears are available to pug into the calculators. Rancho used to have a PDF of a paper catalog with the gears in it on their website. No more. You really need to know what is possible before you start plugging numbers in.

Last edited by Stan Galat

Thanks for all the great info. Amazing what can happen when you have a bunch of options!

Based on the main shaft and R&P that I sent out, here are the two most popular choices:

 R/P 3.80, 2.06, 1.48, 1.17, .089   (The knuckles  blend)

 R/P 3.80, 2.06, 1.48, 1.12, .089  (The Alb blend)

Lucky for me, I've got a few months to figure out what that .05 means. It sounds like it goes all the way back to what Tony told me on the phone last month: "It all boils down to what 3rd and 4th you go with..." Seems like the 1.48 is the defacto replacement third. 

I'm almost afraid to ask... If I went with 10 tooth spider gears, do I need different axle end gears?

Thanks for the gearing lessons. I really appreciate the info!

Ted

    I agree with my west coast friend Jim Ignacio.

    Other being irritated by a short short first gear I simply enjoyed being behind the steering wheel of my speedster...easily keeping up with traffic, or pushing it to the edge of comfort on the twisty New England country roads without a thought as to what's going on in the gear box.  I'm simply not capable of understanding/evaluating the available gearing combinations and options, and the preferences and opinions expressed in this thread. Although it probably would be nice to know the ratios in my 4speed 'freeway flyer' tranny so I can kibbitz intelligently over beers with you guys... I'm not losing sleep over my ignorance! 

    BTW, I've had no luck in Goggling ratio information on the stock 5speed 901 in my 912 so I can compare it to preferred combinations in this thread. Does anyone (Blanchette?) have that information?? 

This thing comes up enough that it'd be really useful to have some links in the knowledge-base (or somewhere)

  1. All of the available VW gear ratios: stock, Weddle and Erco. It'd be nice to have them classified as such (these gears are cheap and available, these are available but expensive). Rancho has some of them listed, but they are kind've a mess on their current site. 
  2. Some favorite gear ratio calculators. Action VW was always a favorite of mine, but it's only a 4-speed calculator. There is one that is commonly used that has room for 6 (I think) speeds, and has a cool chart as well. 

PERMANENT LINKS: that would be sweet.

Last edited by Stan Galat

Stan- go to Weddle Industries tech info page http://weddleindustries.com/tech-info  scroll down to "other downloads" and the first listing is "Weddle Gear Inventory a current list of Weddle gear ratios in stock". I haven't been able to directly bookmark this page.

Here is the gear calculator that I use- http://calc.teammfactory.com/i...26+2&trannytype=

 I like it because you can compare 2 gearsets side by side. You can't directly access the M Factory gear calculator from the main page, but if you click on any of the "vehicle fitment" options, click on "about us" at the top of the page, scroll down and click on "support", you'll find the gear calculator at the bottom of the drop box. 

Stock gears-                                                                                                                                   3.80/2.06 1st/2nd mainshaft (early)                                                                                          3.78/2.06 1st/2nd mainshaft (late- considered stronger)                                                     Some type 1 auto stick gearboxes have a 2.25 2nd gear, and Berg can splice that on to your 4 or 5 speed mainshaft (I don't know how much it costs). It shortens up the 1-2 shift by 150 or 200rpm when shifted at 3500, and people I've met with their transaxle equipped thus really like it. If you find one of these gearboxes- take the time to take the mainshaft (and matching 2nd gear) out of it or give it to someone who will. Don't just throw it out!

1.31 (early) or 1.26 (late) 3rd gears- I'm not exactly sure when VW started using the 1.26; it was sometime around late '72 or 1974.                                                                      0.89, 0.93(or .94?)- most type 1 transaxles will have the .89, although when VW started using the 3.88 r&p they used the .93(4) in the beetle boxes. Karmann Ghias got the .89 with the 3.88.

Ring and Pinions-                                                                                                                         4.375- 1961-1966 beetles (12 & 1300cc engines)                                                                    4.125- 1967- mid '72 (I believe)                                                                                                 3.88- that point on.

There are keyed and splined versions of the mainshfts, pinion shafts and gears- I don't remember the details, but if you're piecing a trans together from parts (or buying stuff from someone), take note of what you need (eg- a splined 3rd or 4th gear WILL NOT fit on a keyed main or pinion shaft)

Last edited by ALB

Sometime, when you get a chance to watch the Tour de France, first, watch the course explanation for the day at the beginning of the stage - it will show a course elevation map showing the hills and their relative elevation over that race stage.

Then, scope out the rear wheel gear cluster you'll see on the rider's bikes (they always show them if you look closely).  For those days when it's relatively flat, the rear gear clusters are tiny, meaning that they are geared relatively higher (smaller numerically) in overall range so they can go faster with the less effort needed for flat running AND don't bother with gears for the hills they won't see.  It's not unusual for 45mph sustained for the peloton on the tidal flats of Brittany (with no tail wind).  Any crashes at that speed are spectacular, to say the least.

On days when there are a lot of hills (and particularly when it's very hilly), that rear wheel cluster will be a whole lot bigger, giving the riders the power needed for the hills, but the overall speed might average 10mph or less.  

Recreational riders typically have a pedal cadence in the mid 70's.  Very fit riders and casual racers tend towards the mid-upper 80's.  Lance Armstrong and the US Postal Team developed the 90 rpm cadence as an art form - they would hold that pedal speed throughout the entire race stage and, as a team, were like a freight train (of course, drugs might have helped, but you had to admire their power at the time).

I've got a couple of rear wheels and can swap a cluster (or individual gears) in a few minutes and everything Stan mentioned is right on - Getting the gear splits right, especially on a bike with 22+ gears to choose from - so there's no overlap or big gaps between gears - is crucial to effort-less riding.  Most of the time, I ride the same split set as I'm used to it, but if I know I'm doing a day of hills I might pop in a set for an overall lower range.  It makes the day a lot easier.  

I wish it was that easy to change the Speedster gearing, but you've got a bit more power to deal with to cover weird gear splits - and a MUCH wider power band!

90 rpm is really hard to get to on any bike. I have made bicycle blenders and have one in my bar/restaurant in Loreto which is used by the customers to make their own Margaritas. On the occasions I have actually watched and counted their pedal RPM, I don't think anyone got much past 70 RPM.  Armstrong and team doing 90 is phenomenal !  The overdrive on my blender is around 50 to 1.

When I worked on bikes a lot, a 7-speed cluster was the generic "go-to". I got a Campagnolo Chorus gruppo in '93-ish: it was the first nice thing I'd purchased since I got married 8 years before. It had and 8 speed cluster, as did Record, Dura-Ace, and Ultegra. 105 was still 7-speed, I believe.

I've been out of the game for a while. When I bought the speedster, I got fat and turned my attention to beating the wind with this stupid car. I stopped working on/riding bikes. That was stupid.

Last time I checked, Record and Dura-Ace had 10 sp clusters. That's a lot of little-bitty gears back there, and a pretty thin chain (to say nothing of a wheel without much dish).

My point is: even at the height of my power/weight ratio, pushing a 53/12 was ridiculous, but that's what all high-end bikes came with. I had much better success with a 53/13 top gear, and at this point I'd probably use a 50 tooth big-ring if I could find one.

VW gears are a lot like that. 1st is generally unusable for most folks, then they stick in a 4th that is too long for 90% of what they use if for. That's asking 2nd and 3rd to bridge some pretty yawning gaps. If you want to make do with 4, you're going to need to give it up on the top or the bottom, because trying to bridge those gaps with a Type 1's torque curve is a fools errand.

 

Stan, what the hey am I reading here?

Longer and longer expositions on the merits and wisdom of five speeds? And from a guy who already has a dry sump and twice as many plugs as the rest of us?

I think things are stirring in Stanistan. I can just smell it. There's a Gene Berg conversion in your future if there's a god in Zuffenhausen.

But Stan is Stan. If the rest of us have five speeds, Stan will be thinking more is better. The hell with Gene Berg, I think Stan is dreaming of a Dave Dudley conversion.

Every time I read about your solo weeks on the road, crossing the desert with eyes on the horizon and tach pegged, this song goes through my head.

Before you go with ten forward speeds though, consider experimenting with the Georgia Overdrive.

 

https://youtu.be/wHbGhEfnh2E

 

 

 

Yeah. I need to just step away from the keyboard.

No 5-speed this year. I'll be building Stanistan 2.0.

It's substantially smaller, but I'm tracking hard towards a Bend-Pak 2 post lift for the garage, and I received this lil' feller last month:

5 hp, 2-stage, 175 psi working pressure, 15.4 CFM Quincy pump. If that won't take care of the blast cabinet, I'll always think it should've.

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