How many miles have you put on an air cooled engine?

Just curious to see what the difference is between stock motors and high performance motors, T1s and T4 etc. I also wonder if the motors don't last as long in speedsters, and if the lower qualilty of many parts is having an impact on motor longevity.
I had a 1970 beetle while going to university, and when I sold it the odometer showed 115k. The only motor work was a valve job at 70k. The motor was stock, except for a header/QP exhaust system, power pulley and dual Kadrons, which were installed at around 60k. On the other hand, I had around 5k on my 1776 when I decided to upgrade it. When I took the heads off I noticed that both were cracked.
Anyone have high mileage speedsters out there?
Ron

I think a lot of it is a heat issue. Talking to Pat Downs about a possible build a couple of months ago, the first words out of his mouth were "Speedsters are notorious for having cooling problems". I'm ALMOST up and running again, taking GBs advise on the welded/balanced fan/ 356 pulley modification, and larger primary tube exhaust. I've been so hot during 90 deg weather that I started blowing seals (distributer shaft seal, etc). That CAN'T be good...

Pat saying that speedster have cooling problems doesn't surprise me. I wonder if anyone out there has 50k on their speedster motor? Usually, 356 replica owners don't own their cars that long, which is another interesting topic.
Ron

I have put 1500 miles on mine since the rebuild on the heads....still running perfect...knock on fiberglass

90 degree weather at 75mph turning 3400 rpm I have been running 210 on the oil and 280 on the heads +-10 degrees. I hope this will be cool enough for a low maintenance engine...only time will tell.

I did do an external 8 pass oil cooler and a air inlet for the fan.

Ron:

What was the cooling setup on your 1776 engine?

I had a 65 21 window long ago (mentioned in another post earlier). I bought it and drove it and knew thjey were slow, so figured this was it. Turned out #3 cylinder was cooked. Had it fixed and then proceeded to drive it everywhere. Drove it probably 60K miles when it started making a horrible crunching/grinding sound. I put a for sale sign on it. A kid offered me exactly what I had paid for it. I told him to bring his dad and we'll talk. He did. They listened to the nioise, drove it, bought it and he commuted to Oregon for three years in it without doing anything but gas and oil...go figure.

I put 120K on my '73 super beetle vert. Completely stock. Nothing other than regular maintenance. One of the most reliable cars I ever owned.

The jury's out on the Type4 big boy engine I have now. Nothing to compare it to for purposes of this post yet. Sure glad I got the big gulp gas tank though!

I think Jake Raby and Pat Downs can provide a lot of info. on this subject, but I think there are a couple of factors that need to be considered.

Many Speedster builders use used cases. A used case is subject to some problems resulting from their first life and how they are rebuilt. It's my understanding that cases cast in Mexico and Brazil after Type one VW's were no longer imported to the U.S. have more mass in certain areas to increase strength and heat conductivity.

When using old cases there is some re-inforcement and welding that can be done to increase the life of the motor and there are some steps that need to be done to insure that the motor runs-in correctly.

I have heard it said, with proper maintenance, a new case with a stock (1600) motor should give you 100,000 +. A rebuilt case should give you 75,000, but I think it's not simple to predict without knowing a bit about the history of the case.

Performance engines run hotter and are subject to higher failure rates.

Another consideration, now that Type I engines are in the last years of production in Mexico a couple of engine builders are beginning to cast similer cases that they think are improvements over the stock Mexican cases. I think Bug-Pack is one of the manufacturers.

These new cases have more mass around the lifters, in in the "webs" of the case and on cylendar #3. Time will tell if these new cases improve engine life, I think there are skeptics on this.

Robert, I had the Bernie Bergman 911 shroud on my 1776.
Seems like we got phenomenal mileage out of the factory motors (all German parts?). I wonder if the problem with newer, low mileage engine failures is crappy parts?
Ron

Ron, I think you hit it.

Years ago, I used to hang around the shop of Al Alden, who was a premier Porsche and VW engine builder on the upper East Coast. He was Porsche factory trained and had over 15 years experience - at that time - building Porsche racing engines for the Northeast and Mid-Atlantic racing crowd. At that time (late '60's) there were a few go-fast parts available (usually from the West Coast) for Porsche's and hotter VW's but Al never used any of them. He felt that the quality was just so inferior to original Porsche and VW stuff (we're talking German parts only, here) that the aftermarket parts weren't worth the trouble or grumpy customers who had them fail during a race.

I've heard the same said about the Brazilian and Mexican (and Pakistani) parts for VW's - they just aren't as good as the real German stuff.

Maybe that's why engines seem to die earlier after a rebuild, if non-German parts were used, although it would be interesting to compare a few engine rebuilds, some with original German parts and others with aftermarket parts to see which ones last longer, but you would really need a statistical sample of a few hundred or more to be meaningful due to all the variables involved.

my dos centavos, gn

I cannot really chime in here without it starting a flame war of sorts...

I just received a testimonial from a customer from 1997, he has an older Fiber fab speedster with one of my earlier 2270 engines... He has 90K on it, had nothing but good to say.

Every engine and combo is different. All it takes is one bad tank of gas, one bad carb, one weird distributor to cook the engine.. The variables are too great for accurate analysis.

I don't remember any high mileage #'s but 24 years ago when I worked
in a vw engine rebuilding shop, the shop warranty was
"24 months unlimited miles" on rebuilt eng's.
Items "stressed" for long life were; oil changes, valve adjustments
and cooling (engine comp. seals etc..). When we would tear down
engines for rebuilds we always found the same thing==neglect.
I think the maintenance (valves etc.) slipped the minds of the average
american car owner who was used to hydaulic (no mx) valves.
The problems were always burned/dropped #3 exhaust valves, the
occasional thrown rod (usually #3)and always sludge for oil.

I totally agree with both Jake and Bruce. If you take care of these engines (ANY engine, really....) with regular maintanence and don't beat on them, they should last beyond 100K miles.

If you have a "built" engine with lots of go-fast parts and then stress it a lot with fast starts and lots of high revs, should you be surprised when it croaks after 30K or 40K miles?

If you mistreat them or take them for granted (like they have hydraulic valves or something) then you pay the price with short lives.

When my Dad had school busses in the 70's and 80's, you could bank on a bus clutch lasting only 50K miles (it only sees stop-and-go driving), but he had one driver who would regularly get 90K or more. Why? Because he knew how a clutch worked and drove to make it last (and no, he didn't ever do clutch-less shifts).

In VW's or any kind of car, it's all in how you treat them.

But Jake's right.....there are just too many variables involved to make much sense out of it unless you tracked a sample of a few hundred engines through their lifetimes, and even then all it takes is one bad tank of gas.

gn

VS "house 1776" w/ hydraulic lifters". 1000 + miles )O:

I guess this doesn't sound like all that much... but I have 27,304 miles as of this morning on a local build 1776cc. Many of those miles are at speed in the good old heat here in Oklahoma.

Maybe I am just lucky?

The engine was built with a new case, and all quality parts. I am sure that has something to do with it. But, more so I think it comes from having takem advice like Jake's and having a CHT to monitor temps, and using his study on synthetics to pick out a good one for my car. The Remote cooler and fan, plus 1.5 oil sump seem to be a factor as does having a nice 1.5" exhaust on the 1776. *the moment I went from 1 3/8s to the 1 1/2 CSP I saw a drop in temps. I probably waste oil, but I change normally at 2500-300 miles, occasionally up to 3500 miles. And I change plugs, adjust carbs, tune, and keep the engine clean on a routine basis, same goes with all filters. I think engine bay sealing and a good welded/balanced fan are part of it too.

But then... it could crater on me tomorrow and I'd have to eat this post.

I am driving it to St Paul-Minne in late July to run in the National Transplant games... confident or foolish, I don't care which. I bought it to drive, and that's what I do.

Jim

Hey Jim; I checked out your pictures; very nice car indeed! What exhaust system are you running in your car? From your post I understand it's less restrictive but I notice that it still keeps the vintage look. I would like to keep it in mind so that I can swap mine for one like it when it gives up the ghost(the one my car came with is the OEM VW Mexican unit but it's been ceramic coated to last a little longer; I understand they're fine for stock engines but might be a little restrictive for larger ones). Thanks for your input.

I think that Jim's exhaust system ( 1 1/2" CSP) is good for around 140 to 150 hp. My (well, really not mine any more) 2110 put out around 140 hp, with a 1 5/8" merged system. I never compared it to a 1 1/2" system, but I was happy with the performance. the motor had low end torque and would easily rev to 6500. You really don't need monster valves to get power. I ran a 40 x 35.5 valved head.
The CSP is a very nice system. Also, Eddie has a nice, custom made 1 1/2", dual muffler system.
Ron

While we're on the topic here, I just installed a custom 1-5/8" "sidewinder" merged system by Tiger at A1 (thanks GB for the tip right here at s/o.com). The fit is incredible- and I live 3500 mi away. The exhaust is really too large for the motor (1776), but I only wanted to do this thing once, and I think theres a 2110 in my future. Anyhow, I also did the welded balanced fan and the 356 alternator pulley and shorter belt (thanks... again GB for that tip, too).

I took it out for the first time this evening. 85+ deg, humid. I've got a 3:88 gear with a .89 4th. The engine ran noticably cooler. enough? We'll see, but its a nice first step. I'll add the remote cooler when I do the (engine oil) heater coil set-up later this year.

Thanks for the kind words Ron. My system works very well and sounds great. If there is a draw back to it, I think it is heavier than some systems out there. I really think that the A1 system that Stan has looks interesting, and if I was to do it again I may look into that one. But you know, the grass always looks greener. Eddie

I would like to read what Jake and Pat both have to say on this important subject.

Stan, your A-1 exhaust system is the best bang for the buck. I've heard nothing but good things about A-1. I love those mufflers with the in/out on the same end.
Ron

Thanks Ron- The CSP part is really nice, but this was less money!?! (what is up with THAT?), and a really neat design IMHO. It's one of the few pieces I've gotten that I haven't had to talk myself into liking when it was done. The weld quality is out of this world, the fit better than I dreamed it could be, and there is LOTS of space around the tubes, etc. It (like the EMPI shifter) is just one of thoses pieces too perfect to get hung up on how original it appears. Now if I just had a motor to go along with it....

Does anyone have a picture of the A-1 exhaust system like Stans? His Pictures don't show it.....And Stan, can you give more statistics, what did you order, ? heater boxes or No? what was the cost ? And is this A-1 in Santa Ana?


GClarke

Gary,

No pictures yet- my digital camera is broken, and I just put it on yesterday. Yes it is A1 in Santa Ana, and I got a 1-5/8 flanged system, raw finish (I didn't want ceramic coating until I was sure it would fit), O2 sensor bung, and J-pipes (no heater boxes).

The whole setup with muffler was $600. Not cheap, but really, really nice.

Stan, your system sounds really sweet. I also would like to see some pics. Also, how do you like the sound? Eddie
P.S. Stan, is the A1 system also made to utilize heater boxes if you need them?

I have about 14000 miles on a Raby 2165 without a problem ( over a 2 year period )

Eddie,

Yes, Tiger made it up so that I could bolt some flanged heat exchangers up if I needed to. I also requested that the J-pipes be made with a "kick" in them to accomidate the outer shell of a heater box if I decide to make my own. The sound is good- a bit louder than other 1-3/8 systems I've had (of course), but less resonance than I feared. All in all- I like it a lot.

Eddie and Stan:

In the photo you posted, Eddie, it appears there is enough clearance between the exhaust tubes and the valve covers to remove the covers for (valve adjustments) without unbolting the manifolds. Is this the case, or do you have to loosen the manifold bolts to remove the valve covers?

Thanks for your replies.

With my custom merged system (muffler sitting beside the passenger side valve cover) I had my mechanic cut the pipe on either side of the muffler and install slip-joint collars. To do a valve adjustment I undid the bolts, slid the collars off and dropped the muffler. Everything else (exhaust system) stayed in place. Dropping the muffler took about five minutes. Having a muffler beside the valve cover is no problem if it's set up right.
Ron

Bill, to tell you the truth I've never tried to adjust the valves without droping the tail pipe. It may be possible but I like having alot of room to work, and am not getting paid for the job, so their is no need to hurry. In fact sometimes I wish it took a little longer. It gives me a good excuse to stay in the garage. I guess that makes me certifiably CAR CRAZY! Eddie

I like working on my car because all of my tools are right by my side when I need them, everything fits as it should, nothing leaks, nothing breaks and I never rip open the skin on my knuckles. I'm sure that all of you have the same experiences.
Ron

Eddie:

Is your muffler setup on the quiet side? I'm looking to replace the "monza" exhaust that came on mine.

Thanks,

Joe

Ron:

Someone needs to tell you that you don't have a car. Maybe that's why you 'think' you like working on it, and 'think' you actually enjoy it, and 'think' that everything goes smoothly.

Sorry it has to be me.

Bob

Joe, no the mufflers are straight threw Magnaflows and are medium loud when crusing and pretty loud when you stick your foot in it. I'm sure it's louder than your monza system. Eddie

As James Coburn said to Mel Gibson, in the movie Payback, "Man, that's just mean!"

Ron

Huba, Huba, Huba...

David, glad to hear that the engine is doing great!